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Old 30-04-2016, 09:12 AM #51
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These are the very first people to cry foul if the Muslim community is accused of sympathising with terrorists. It's fine though, to insult the Jewish community because they don't agree with Israel. The Left have always been anti-Semitic and it's frankly staggered me that Jews have contributed to their party funds. I hope that's about to end for good.

worldwide Anti-Semitism is rife and it has been forever. The venom against Israel is just a convenient excuse for some people to hate Jews. What's more the ignorance and the denial about anti-Semitism is staggering. I've said this before I know, but even on this forum I've been told that people can't be racist about Jews because we own all the banks... and that any racism we might encounter is sufferable because we own Hollywood - and this was told to me by someone moaning about racism! These brain-dead opinions are upheld and encouraged by many on the Left.
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Old 30-04-2016, 09:50 AM #52
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I hope any 'genuine' wrong views here by any in the party are dealt with and eradicated.

I now have many friends and indeed fellow Labour party members,who are on the far left as a political term, who are furious and appalled at the comments supported by that MP and would be against anyone else who really held those views too.
However not liking Israel's policies or its govt or even some individuals from Israel is not wrong.
A massive disservice is done to the masses of decent people on the left who equally hate such views as anyone else in the political spectrum may do.

I am someone who is very pro Israel because I have a god few Jewish friends,oddly enough they do not see any one side as being supporters of anti-semitism,even the ones who vote Conservative said to me last night, they doubt the Labour party is a party rife with same, they feel sure this inquiry will not result in any great findings of racism or anti-semitism.
Although they doubt Corbyns sincerity on this issue.

It is as unhelpful to say the left are anti-semetic and to then give the indication that Labour party is so because of a few mindless wrongly informed and prejudiced individuals.
Like Andy Burnham on Question Time on Thursday,I would along with him if I had any belief at all that the Labour party was rife with these views,I'd leave it tomorrow but I totally believe that is not the case and its not fair either to slate all the left as to this either.

It is not wrong to criticise Israel,a good while back one of my Aunts and her family visited Israel,she was very pro Israel,however she came back sympathising more with the Palestinians than the Israelis.
Although not being against either as peoples.
That does not make her anti Israel or anti-semitic for thinking that,we have to be really careful what we define as it being, no Nation is or should be above criticism for what it does at times.

My own sympathies lie strongly with Israel and I would fight very hard against any prejudice against the Jewish people,I am now on the left of politics myself for want of having to be termed where my leanings now lie.
This is very unsavoury, 'real' anti-semitism is wrong full stop, however genuine grievances as to policies of a Nation and all other justified negative views are not anti-semitism

We need to stamp out anti-semitism wherever it may be and in any political party too but it should not be inflamed and played as a political card to brand all of one side or the other as to the only ones being so.
So I hope for a good outcome to this inquiry,I support who is leading it,I hope anyone who is found to hold these views is dealt with and expelled from the Labour party.

I still think however Corbyn has been pushed to do this,he still seems to be commenting on this in a very half hearted way.
I know that is his style but I have also seen him get really passionate and fired up on things such as nuclear weapons and so, I feel, he needs to get fired up on this and show he will be relentless in removing from the Party, friend or foe, who hold such wrong and unacceptable views.

If he fails here, it will be time for him to go in my view.
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Old 30-04-2016, 10:09 AM #53
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Is there any evidence that Hitler did actually suggest that (anyone have a copy of mein kampf handy?)
If he did however unsavory it is just a fact, there was no suggesting that anything he did or said subsequently was right.
This infighting is a bit convenient for the tories atm isn't it, Corbyn for me has dealt with it without bluster or arm flailing as is I would have thought, the manner expected of a party leader.
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Old 30-04-2016, 10:26 AM #54
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Is there any evidence that Hitler did actually suggest that (anyone have a copy of mein kampf handy?)
If he did however unsavory it is just a fact, there was no suggesting that anything he did or said subsequently was right.
This infighting is a bit convenient for the tories atm isn't it, Corbyn for me has dealt with it without bluster or arm flailing as is I would have thought, the manner expected of a party leader.
The Hitler comment is by the by. The fact is that Livingstone supported and made excuses for Shah, and showed his true feelings - that anti-Semitism is acceptable because of Israel. A convenient excuse. Typical that non-Jews are going to argue the toss over whether Hitler was a Zionist or not. Hitler's initial intentions, whatever they were, were scrubbed out by his orchestration of the Holocaust.

The in-fighting may be convenient for the Tories but that isn't the issue. And to suggest it is just deflects the question. Because it happened. And the fact it happened is testament to the fact that the Left has been exposed as having a wide anti-Semitic element.

I'm interested but not surprised that some non-Jews on the Left seem to find Corbyn's handling of this acceptable. Perhaps Jews can wait for the nod in future... if gentiles aren't offended, then we won't be either.

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Old 30-04-2016, 11:34 AM #55
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The Hitler comment is by the by. The fact is that Livingstone supported and made excuses for Shah, and showed his true feelings - that anti-Semitism is acceptable because of Israel. A convenient excuse. Typical that non-Jews are going to argue the toss over whether Hitler was a Zionist or not. Hitler's initial intentions, whatever they were, were scrubbed out by his orchestration of the Holocaust.

The in-fighting may be convenient for the Tories but that isn't the issue. And to suggest it is just deflects the question. Because it happened. And the fact it happened is testament to the fact that the Left has been exposed as having a wide anti-Semitic element.

I'm interested but not surprised that some non-Jews on the Left seem to find Corbyn's handling of this acceptable. Perhaps Jews can wait for the nod in future... if gentiles aren't offended, then we won't be either.
It's a headline grabbing by the by. Anti semitism is not acceptable, that has been made clear. To suggest non Jews on the left are waiting for a sign to reveal some dormant prejudice is a reach.
I agree with Livingstone it's a blairite smear, the tories must be relieved after the month they've had, tax scandals, election fixing allegations, workfare is a human rights violation... what a stroke of luck this is.
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Old 30-04-2016, 01:05 PM #56
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These are the very first people to cry foul if the Muslim community is accused of sympathising with terrorists. It's fine though, to insult the Jewish community because they don't agree with Israel. The Left have always been anti-Semitic and it's frankly staggered me that Jews have contributed to their party funds. I hope that's about to end for good.
Its easy to generalize with a sweeping brush-stroke.
If I don't agree with Israel, that doesn't make me anti-Semitic, it just means I disagree against Israel's treatment against the Palestinians. I also disagree with how the Whabbis and Sunni's have treated the Kurds and Shiites in Syria but that doesn't make me Islamophobic and yet strangely enough, I've been outwardly accused on here of supporting terrorism because I don't support the anti-Muslim harder liners.

Quote:
worldwide Anti-Semitism is rife and it has been forever. The venom against Israel is just a convenient excuse for some people to hate Jews. What's more the ignorance and the denial about anti-Semitism is staggering. I've said this before I know, but even on this forum I've been told that people can't be racist about Jews because we own all the banks... and that any racism we might encounter is sufferable because we own Hollywood - and this was told to me by someone moaning about racism! These brain-dead opinions are upheld and encouraged by many on the Left.
Personally I think the terms used are inherently problematic and a large part of the issue. Criticism of Israel should be just that neither anti Semetic nor, perhaps more importantly anti Zionist. I criticise the policies of many countries. I criticise aspects of American policy but I am not anti- Americans. I criticise a lot of British policy but I'm not Anti- British.

Challenging anti-Semitism has been hard because then people do pull out the Palestine card and hide behind that and claim they are just anti-Israel and not anti-Semitic. This is further complicated because some of them are anti-Israel and not anti-Semitic, but some of them are anti-Israel and anti-Semitic and it's become a good disguise to hide behind. Unfortunately, criticism of Israel and anti- Semitism appear to bleed together and therefore, those of us who don't agree with Israeli policy are hugely wary of being misjudged.
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Old 30-04-2016, 01:16 PM #57
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Here are the transcripts of Livingstone's recent interviews, including with Vanessa Feltz.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7005311.html

and I snatched this comment from a friend on FB

"The existence of the Haavara agreement is not in dispute. Holding it up as an example of Hitler supporting Zionism however is a grotesque misrepresentation. Hitler had made it clear in Mein Kampf that he believed Jewish people should be exterminated. At the time of the Haavara agreement /jewish people in Germany were already subject to dreadful discrimination and prejudice. This had resulted in a Jewish boycott of all of Nazi Germany. Many of the Nazis in the top echelon feared this was going to derail their nascent economy and so they came up with the agreement as a means to both rid themselves of some Jews and to try and appease the international community. For the privelege of leaving their homes and friends Jewish people had to pay a large sum of money and give up all their possessions. About 60'000 made it out of Germany this way before it became untenable and the Holocaust began. Hitler's support for the scheme was luke warm at best.

To use the above to describe Hitler as either a Zionist or Zionist supporter is repugnantas Mr. Livingstone, I have no doubt, is well aware. The Haarva agreement has been used for decades to try and paint Jewish people as somehow complicit with the Nazis as opposed to their victims atempting to flee."
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Old 01-05-2016, 11:43 AM #58
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Well across the board,this issue also may be of benefit long term and short term for the Labour party.
I have no doubt there will be some expulsions from the party after this investigation,very small because I have no belief at all that there are a really high number of people with anti-semitic views in the party anyway.
Also Labour will have been one party that acted on the issue and investigated it.

Long term that will be of benefit to the Party, even if Corbyn remains as leader,if he does, I cannot see any way that he will remain leader for the 2020 election but not because he holds any anti-semitic leanings, which I do not think he does but he has not handled this that well and forceful enough for me.

However, short term too, if Labour do badly in this weeks elections,they can blame Livingstone and this uproar for any poorer showing than may have been.

For me however,enough has been done for now, the MP is suspended and dropping her may well be the result of his inquiry,Livingstone has been out of the party before and he should be again now for his comments last week,I think that will happen too.
Then let's see what this inquiry brings out and not brand all in Labour,particularly on the left, as some are trying to do,as near all holding likely anti-semitic views.
Prejudice against the left or even the right is as bad as any other prejudice,in my view.

Also I hope some better outline is brought in as to where justified commenting and criticism of Israel actually really crosses into being the abhorrent views as to the heading of this thread.
Just because some criticise Israel does not mean those people are anti Jewish at all and trying to inflame any criticism into being anti-semitic does a massive disservice to the whole issue.

I am firm supporter of the Israeli Nation,I do not agree with all it does and I believe in the two state solution and just because I am of left leaning politics now, I take great offence at being branded as maybe holding any anti-semitic views just because I am on the left.
Also being firm here too, all the people I have come to know on the left, have no such views either.

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Old 01-05-2016, 12:44 PM #59
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The same arguments exist when dealing with any form of racism Joey, its very easy to throw in the racism card when it is just fundamental criticism or disagreement, and nothing whatsoever to do with racism.

I'm not as optimistic as you. With the likes of Diane Abbot entering the debate, I'm seeing a pattern of like minded individuals rushing to the defense of their pals. The very group that is being accused of being anti-Semitic is the group Corbyn is most closely associated with. I hold no value in investigations and inquiries I'm afraid, and I've also never had anything but contempt for the inquiry chair. I think the whole thing sucks.
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Old 01-05-2016, 01:10 PM #60
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It makes me smile that the Left now need guidelines to help them be less anti-Semitic. What's the point? They all back heroes like Hamas and Hezbollah who aren't just homophobic, they are scarily homophobic. I've never heard Corbyn or any of his cronies speak out against that particular white elephant when singing the praises of their terrorist friends. Maybe they need a set of guidelines on homophobia if they're going to fraternise with people who think gays people should be killed.
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Old 01-05-2016, 01:35 PM #61
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It makes me smile that the Left now need guidelines to help them be less anti-Semitic. What's the point? They all back heroes like Hamas and Hezbollah who aren't just homophobic, they are scarily homophobic. I've never heard Corbyn or any of his cronies speak out against that particular white elephant when singing the praises of their terrorist friends. Maybe they need a set of guidelines on homophobia if they're going to fraternise with people who think gays people should be killed.
I didn't say the left need new outlines as to where the crossover from justified criticism should be seen as being anti semitic.
I meant that for all because one of the questions I have been asked over this week is just what can people say and not say.

I was asked a question I could not answer, which was how can the holocaust not be talked about ad not bring in the name of Hitler to the issue.would anyone now even just mentioning his name be seen as a possible anti semitic.

Also has anyone any real proof at all too that Corbyn has shown himself by what he has said to be anti-semitic and what has he done that could be proven to be an anti-semitic act.

People say and mix with all kinds of people and while some of them may be unsavoury.it doesn't mean people share their views.

Or is there an additional valid point here that this is further just to get at Corbyn because some people don't like him at all.
Guilt by association can be a dangerous road and views do change and also sometimes we do have to talk to people we would rather not to reach any compromise or settlement.

As in the past Israeli govts for a time spoke to Arafat and in fact both were at the white house in the USA.
People are confused by this whole issue, I have faith in the Charabati led inquiry, at least there is one set up at the very least.

At this time, that MP was wrong absolutely and for me should not be in Parliament ad Livingstone, while always controversial was wrong in his defence of her.
Now if any others are rooted out as having any similar views as the MP, then they too should be removed from the party.

However the left are only moaning at the new undercurrent that seems to be coming in that the vast majority of decent Labour members and voters feel some are branding them with the same views as that MP and that should be unacceptable to brand whole groups of people that way just as it should to be anti Jewish too.
Any prejudice there 'may, I say 'may' be,will not get eradicated by then playing a new prejudice card against whole other groups of people.
In fact that is more likely to inflame things and make things far worse.
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Old 01-05-2016, 01:37 PM #62
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It makes me smile that the Left now need guidelines to help them be less anti-Semitic. What's the point? They all back heroes like Hamas and Hezbollah who aren't just homophobic, they are scarily homophobic. I've never heard Corbyn or any of his cronies speak out against that particular white elephant when singing the praises of their terrorist friends. Maybe they need a set of guidelines on homophobia if they're going to fraternise with people who think gays people should be killed.
One has to ask why they need inquiries or guidelines. Prejudice and racism are defined. Are they suggesting that Jewish people are a special case where either rules need to be more or less strict? Does that mean that every single group then needs its own set of guidelines? The whole thing just doesn't make sense, and doesn't ring true for me. If ever there was a lets let some time go by ploy and do some pen pushing, going through the motions, this is it.

If someone speaks with prejudice or whatever, its simple ... they should be expelled from the party. Full stop.
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Old 01-05-2016, 04:30 PM #63
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One has to ask why they need inquiries or guidelines. Prejudice and racism are defined. Are they suggesting that Jewish people are a special case where either rules need to be more or less strict? Does that mean that every single group then needs its own set of guidelines? The whole thing just doesn't make sense, and doesn't ring true for me. If ever there was a lets let some time go by ploy and do some pen pushing, going through the motions, this is it.

If someone speaks with prejudice or whatever, its simple ... they should be expelled from the party. Full stop.
I agree. Whoever the target, whatever the party... they should be expelled.
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Old 01-05-2016, 05:08 PM #64
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I understand this inquiry will also take in account any other racism too.

I want to belong to an anti-semitic and anti racism party no matter who the racism is directed at.
Had labour not launched this inquiry, it would now be splashed all over the front pages and have the PM standing up at PMQs saying they refused to do one.
It is right to have it, jus as it is right the Conservative party has an inquiry ongoing as to its bullying issue and complaints.

I don't think there is any even fair number of people to find in Labour as to this issue and that should be rightly so.
I for one would leave the party if it was found to be a really growing problem,none of these people have any place in any credible party in the UK.

However the minds of the Jewish community have to be settled on this one,so hope for a good outcome of this in the end and clearer way forward, no matter what party Jewish citizens choose to vote for.
They have had far more than enough to have to bear from the past,they should not be facing any prejudice from anyone and certainly not in the UK from any political mainstream party.
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:00 PM #65
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And should we also settle the minds of the Muslim communities in Britain. Should we be investigating the Conservative party or UKIP for anti-Islamic bigotry. Should we be challenging channel 4 for producing programmes like, "What British Muslims really think" and "The Jihadist next door"?
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Old 01-05-2016, 07:38 PM #66
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I actually think a full inquiry across the board into all parties would be a positive thing,lets get a clean slate for them all and start again, outlining in the strongest terms for all, what is acceptable terminology and what will not be tolerated full stop.

It shouldn't need an inquiry really, all parties should be doing this anyway now.
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Old 01-05-2016, 07:42 PM #67
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It shouldn't need an inquiry really, all parties should be doing this anyway now.
That's what I think, which is why I believe the inquiry to be a smokescreen and completely unnecessary. We all know what prejudice is. There is no room for prejudice of any sort in British society, so if an MP, a representative of the people, doesn't live up to the same standard, they should be booted out.
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Old 01-05-2016, 07:45 PM #68
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That's what I think, which is why I believe the inquiry to be a smokescreen and completely unnecessary. We all know what prejudice is. There is no room for prejudice of any sort in British society, so if an MP, a representative of the people, doesn't live up to the same standard, they should be booted out.
Right, you have convinced me,I agree.
Well done.
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Old 01-05-2016, 09:22 PM #69
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Andrew torybot Marr ( who else) badgering Diane Abbott

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7008746.html
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Old 01-05-2016, 10:17 PM #70
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Andrew torybot Marr ( who else) badgering Diane Abbott

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7008746.html
Actually I watched this and I was more furious at his inference that Labour members were anti-semitic,I was really glad Diane pulled him up on that.
Diane Abbott is well able to stand up for herself and did so here.

This was a shocking interview by his standards and really I find he has lost a lot of credibility as to his interviews not just with Labour politicians but even Conservative ones a times.

I was really annoyed at him this morning and thought the tone of his inferences to Labour MPs and members really distasteful to say the least..

Maybe he is another who is past his sell by date now like David Dimbleby on Question Time is.

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Old 01-05-2016, 10:25 PM #71
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Sorry but Diane's statement that 'it's a smear on Labour party members to say that the party has a problem with anti-semitism' contradicts the whole tough stance they are supposed to be taking on the matter. I thought they accepted that there was a problem by launching this inquiry? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they launched an inquiry into anti-semitism in student Labour organisations earlier in the year? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they suspended Naz Shah and the several others in recent months who have made flagrantly anti-semitic comments?

Apparently not, according to Diane. We're back to the sticking our fingers in our ears denial of anti-semitism in the party. It's all just one big 'smear' against the membership. Yeah, great interview.
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Old 01-05-2016, 10:50 PM #72
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Sorry but Diane's statement that 'it's a smear on Labour party members to say that the party has a problem with anti-semitism' contradicts the whole tough stance they are supposed to be taking on the matter. I thought they accepted that there was a problem by launching this inquiry? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they launched an inquiry into anti-semitism in student Labour organisations earlier in the year? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they suspended Naz Shah and the several others in recent months who have made flagrantly anti-semitic comments?

Apparently not, according to Diane. We're back to the sticking our fingers in our ears denial of anti-semitism in the party. It's all just one big 'smear' against the membership. Yeah, great interview.
There were many things at UNI that I never got involved in,then I was a Conservative more than likely.
However students are often a law to themselves.

The inquiry is to 'see' if there are more than the handful that has been shown and exposed over the last few weeks of which only a few have had to be dealt with by suspension and further inquiry.

If we are going to start rounding up students for their oddball views at times then parties are going to be kept really busy.

Our own PM at present was part of and supported a movement at his UNI which called for Nelson Mandela to be hung.
If this inquiry uncovers any more that are proven to be anti-semitic then they will have to be dealt with and expelled from the party, 'if' that is there are any more hence the working of this inquiry.

However this interview of Marr this morning got me really angry because to me he inferred this was rife among the left and particularly as to Labour.perhaps he should wait like the rest of us for the inquiry to be concluded first before branding all the same.
As a labour party member I took strong offence at his line today, I felt it crossed a line in interviewing too.

Personally from my view of Labour and being a member too, I doubt this inquiry will find much in the way as genuine anti-semitism, because I do not think it is genuinely there to find really.

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Old 01-05-2016, 11:02 PM #73
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Sorry but Diane's statement that 'it's a smear on Labour party members to say that the party has a problem with anti-semitism' contradicts the whole tough stance they are supposed to be taking on the matter. I thought they accepted that there was a problem by launching this inquiry? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they launched an inquiry into anti-semitism in student Labour organisations earlier in the year? I thought they accepted there was a problem when they suspended Naz Shah and the several others in recent months who have made flagrantly anti-semitic comments?

Apparently not, according to Diane. We're back to the sticking our fingers in our ears denial of anti-semitism in the party. It's all just one big 'smear' against the membership. Yeah, great interview.
Not a good idea to bring Diane Abbott to fight your corner.
Her head is stuck that far up her own backside she can't see daylight, never mind a point of view.
Contradicting herself once again.
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Old 01-05-2016, 11:03 PM #74
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There were many things at UNI that I never got involved in,then I was a Conservative more than likely.
However students are often a law to themselves.

The inquiry is to 'see' if there are more than the handful that has been shown and exposed over the last few weeks of which only a few have had to be dealt with by suspension and further inquiry.

If we are going to start rounding up students for their oddball views at times then parties are going to be kept really busy.

Our own PM at present was part of and supported a movement at his UNI which called for Nelson Mandela to be hung.
If this inquiry uncovers any more that are proven to be anti-semitic then they will have to be dealt with and expelled from the party, 'if' that is there are any more hence the working of this inquiry.

However this interview of Marr this morning got me really angry because to me he inferred this was rife among the left and particularly as to Labour.perhaps he should wait like the rest of us for the inquiry to be concluded first before branding all the same.
As a labour party member I took strong offence at his line today, I felt it crossed a line in interviewing too.

Personally from my view of Labour and being a member too, I doubt this inquiry will find much in the way as genuine anti-semitism, because I do not think it is genuinely there to find really.

Marr wasn't making his comments from a place of ignorance. He has been close to MP's for many, many years. Its his job to provoke reaction and he has clearly done it. I have a lot of time for Marr, if he is ruffling feathers, there will be good reason for it
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:05 AM #75
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I actually think a full inquiry across the board into all parties would be a positive thing,lets get a clean slate for them all and start again, outlining in the strongest terms for all, what is acceptable terminology and what will not be tolerated full stop.

It shouldn't need an inquiry really, all parties should be doing this anyway now.
I'm up for that Joey.
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