[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"Most Scots think Nicola is doing a great job,"

Sure LT,
but on Independence.
Not all Scottish want to be alone in the world.

Well not all UK citizens wanted to not stay part of the EU.
However 51.9 wanted to leave so we had to leave.

Are you now saying the lesser view should be considered as to Scottish independence..
No matter where the figures now are on independence, if polls are to be believed, it's now in excess of around 52%

I put no faith in polling, however one way to settle the issue again is to have a new vote on independence, following the brexit vote which has further alienated more Scots voters as to the Union of the UK.

You will never get everyone in a Country voting the same way.

It's an odd democracy you now portray though, that because ALL Scots don't want independence that should decide if there's another referendum.
That's actually a scary kind of democracy.

That because ALL DON'T want independence, then they SHOULDN'T get it, no matter how many DO want it .
So also should be dictated to only England's view too.


I think it sad were Scotland to leave the Union.
However myself loving the Country and of Scots ancestry on my Father's side.
If I had a vote, I'd vote for Independence there now.
Because the attitude of some parts of England and some of those who support this current awful Con party, plus in fact some ignorant Con backbenchers who show no respect to the Scots , or to who the Scots send to represent them in Westminster either.
Sheer ignorance.

That leaves me believing Scotland could be better independent, or at least no worse, I also actually believe strong support for Scotland would come from many other Nations around the World too.

[arista]

"Are you now saying the lesser view should be
considered as to Scottish independence"


Now we are out of the EU
the UK must stay together.


Johnson PM will Never Give the SNP
their wish.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Nah, we're just one big happy country

How come you all have different national soccer teams then hhhmmm?

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

How come you all have different national soccer teams then hhhmmm?

Because it's a girls' game, and we're being kind to those who can't partake in real sports like rugby

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Because it's a girls' game, and we're being kind to those who can't partake in real sports like rugby

First of all stop being so sexist and secondly Scotland, Wales & England all have their own Rugby teams too

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Scotland, Wales & England all have their own Rugby teams too

For the real men

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

For the real men

How does that answer the point I was making or back up the point you were making(whatever that was)? Both soccer and Rugby have their own national teams (Scotland, England & Wales)

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"Are you now saying the lesser view should be
considered as to Scottish independence"


Now we are out of the EU
the UK must stay together.


Johnson PM will Never Give the SNP
their wish.

You keep saying Johnson will NEVER give the SNP their wish.
That would be constitutionally wrong , unacceptable and likely illegal too.

If the Scottish voters support the SNP even stronger in future elections, you really are advocating in this new post brexit democracy extreme brexiteers want.
That the majority and possibly majority of the people and the individual Nations of the UK.
Should be and can be totally dismissed and denied their wishes.

That's dictatorship, that the biggest Nation of the UK can in effect possibly bully the others by FORCING them to be part of something they'd vote not to.

Is this was meant by brexit taking democracy back.
However democracy as to England's style, for only England to dictate.

That is actually frightening..

The best way to try to ensure the UK stayed together would have been to have stayed in the EU actually.
Brexit only heaped more stronger burning fuel on the independence issue.
To the leave the UK side.

It's even heading towards the same possibly in Northern Ireland too.

[Toy Soldier]

To be honest I do sometimes think it's a sad reality that Scottish independence may not be workable under the current circumstances - I don't think there's any feasible way to get the border to work until things have settled down between Westminster and the EU. Of course, I think that will happen at some point, functional trade between the UK and EU is beneficial to all involved, and I think a "special" agreement at the Scotland/England border is very possible too, but things are currently so up in the air that it would be a major issue.

If I'm 100% going with my gut, I think it's not ideal to break up the Union unless all involved are part of an EU-wide trading community of some sort again (certainly possible) or the EU hits the skids completely (...also kind of possible).

I'm still heavily pro-Autonomy for Scotland but CURRENTLY the best option for that, to me, is probably a devo-max arrangement where Scotland has full control over taxation and spending within Scotland, education, benefits, etc. (we do already have this partially and benefits are transitioning more, but I'd prefer it to be full). Essentially, "independence within the UK union", no direct Westminster control or laws, as really it should always have been.

Would work especially well within something like that CANZUK idea (which I don't think will actually happen) but basically, if it did, I think Scotland could (and should) operate as an independent entity within that, not as a "UK package deal".

But yeah. A hard border, I unfortunately don't think is workable in the 21st century... it's one of the reasons that the EU itself is so necessary on the continent. You might as well officially allow free movement - because how on earth would you stop it?

[arista]

"unacceptable and likely illegal too."


No Joey
under a Pandemic
everything changes.


Johnson PM has every right
to say NO to the weak SNP.

[arista]

"To be honest I do sometimes think it's a sad
reality that Scottish independence may
not be workable under the current circumstances"


Wise Words
from Top Poster
TS.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"unacceptable and likely illegal too."


No Joey
under a Pandemic
everything changes.


Johnson PM has every right
to say NO to the weak SNP.

I'm really sorry but your attitude to the SNP is similar to the Cons in England,
Part of the reason the SNP is so currently strong in Scotland.

They are far from weak in Scotland.

Your attitude in line with Johnson's is only going to add to the support for them too.

She isn't even advocating holding a referendum until after the pandemic.
What excuse will be used once the virus is more controlled.

There's no need for hard borders either as TS is saying.
Other European Nations alongside and adjoining EU Nations don't have much in the way of hard borders
If negotiations are done correctly.
They shouldn't be necessary.

I stand by my statement, no PM can override democracy, and should'nt be allowed to.
If he keeps up the rhetoric he's spouting, then the SNP and the push to independence will only get stronger in Scotland.

Whether right, wrong, wise or worth going for independence, is and should be for the Scots voters to decide.
Not being dictated to by any UK PM of ANY party.

If you think that is going to unite Scotland more to the UK.
You're frankly sorry to say almost like being on another planet.

[arista]

"She isn't even advocating holding a referendum until after the pandemic."


By then, She will be Gone

[arista]

"I stand by my statement,"


Sure Joey
but under this Long Pandemic
you stand for nothing.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"I stand by my statement,"


Sure Joey
but under this Long Pandemic
you stand for nothing.

If you're just going to debate ridiculously then I'm done sorry

I don't like one bit the post brexit democracy you seem to think should be in place.
Nor dictating to other Nations of the UK by England's main representation of the Con party.

Anyway,get on with it.
I'm not wasting my time to get insulted.

[arista]

The Point is
under this Pandemic it will run for many years.
The UK Prime Minister can overrule everything.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by arista

"She isn't even advocating holding a referendum until after the pandemic."


By then, She will be Gone

That's rather optimistic

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

The Point is
under this Pandemic it will run for many years.
The UK Prime Minister can overrule everything.

No, he really can't and shouldn't be able to in a democracy either.

A fair few times in this pandemic he's the one whose followed Sturgeon's actions in Scotland on it anyhow.

Hopefully, because it's rather worrying thinking about the power you credit him with having.
Hopefully he only has up to 3+ years left, for sure he now hasn't 4.
He's elected to serve not dictate.
Well that was the pre brexit way, maybe not now however.

Anyway I think we've exhausted these interactions on this.

[arista]

[No, he really can't and shouldn't be able to in a democracy either.
A fair few times in this pandemic he's the one whose followed Sturgeon's actions in Scotland on it anyhow.]

Under a Pandemic
that Army is brought in to help, for example.

Democracy is within the London Parliament.

It's a Coincidence that Johnson does the same as the SNP leader.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

[No, he really can't and shouldn't be able to in a democracy either.
A fair few times in this pandemic he's the one whose followed Sturgeon's actions in Scotland on it anyhow.]

Under a Pandemic
that Army is brought in to help, for example.

Democracy is within the London Parliament.

It's a Coincidence that Johnson does the same as the SNP leader.

Of course it would have to be a coincidence!!!
I think not myself however.
No way.

He more like hadn't a clue until she led the way.
I'd go more with that.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

That's rather optimistic

No, Covid-19
is not going away for many years.



It is still in China
just they keep much of real time data
hidden from our eyes.

[arista]

Yes Joey
but under a Long Pandemic
Democracy that you enjoy
is no longer around.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes Joey
but under a Long Pandemic
Democracy that you enjoy
is no longer around.

Then we no longer actually have a democracy then.
If we all just have to be dictated to by the Con party and it's current PM.

Wow, that's frightening.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Then we no longer actually have a democracy then.
If we all just have to be dictated to by the Con party and it's current PM.

Wow, that's frightening.

Yes so is this Pandemic Covid-19

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes so is this Pandemic Covid-19

You don't need to tell me that.