[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Genuine question...do many people? I don't know many who do/seem to. I don't see how even an extreme version of this self hatred is any different to the likes of Body dysmorphic disorder.

Obviously body dysmophic disorder is different to transgender.. that was almost painful for me to read.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

No youre getting too hung up on the only personal example I have

Having a constant feeling that you are in the wrong body is transgender to me, I believe that this definition fits the only example I have - and every other transgender person.

Well no, because nearly every story I have heard/read is exactly the same. Except for the late transitioning males like Jenner who were actually turned on by putting on their daughters underwear..of course. Those are in a different league...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Obviously body dysmophic disorder is different to transgender.. that was almost painful for me to read.

How is it? please explain to me as I don't see the difference?!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ugh this topic is such a mine field, I'm half afraid to post what I actually think for fear of offending people. I have massess of sympathy for transgender people, i really do, what a horrendous way to feel about yourself but I wonder sometimes is it this whole business of stereotyping that contributes to making them feel how they do?

bingo...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Obviously body dysmophic disorder is different to transgender.. that was almost painful for me to read.

Comments like this are the reason why people may be afraid to talk about this subject. It's not obvious at all Withano, it seems very similar infact

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

How is it? please explain to me as I don't see the difference?!

A short summary of both would be
One disliking the way that they look - more visual/emotional
One disliking the way that they are - more cognitive

A body dysmophic person doesnt think they are a good looking person in a bad looking persons body.
A transgender person sees an accurate representation of the way that they look

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well no, because nearly every story I have heard/read is exactly the same. Except for the late transitioning males like Jenner who were actually turned on by putting on their daughters underwear..of course. Those are in a different league...

I know reddit isnt a real reference, but these are some real experiences that transwomen have which suggest that not all like barbies and long blonde hair, one described themselves as a stereotypical dyke - which although distasteful, it kinda blew my mind, even I with my moral outrage rarely think of them being lesbians https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgen...ider_yourself/

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Comments like this are the reason why people may be afraid to talk about this subject. It's not obvious at all Withano, it seems very similar infact

Sorry, i just sort of think comments like that create a negative stigma (for both very real communities) which hinder any progress.. both communities are suffering everyday and people saying to them 'eh, isnt that just this, did i just solve all your issues?' Is just a bit tactless fir me. that sort of comment isnt an uncommon misconception which makes it upsetting for me to read. I didnt mean it as a put down, I was genuinely explaining how I personally felt reading it.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Sorry, i just sort of think comments like that create a negative stigma (for both very real communities) which hinder any progress.. that sort of comment isnt an uncommon misconception which makes it upsetting for me to read. I didnt mean it as a put down, I was genuinely explaining how I personally felt reading it.

I don't think Vicky means it to come across as negative and I wouldn't either. Like I already said, I have masses of sympathy for anyone in this situation, it must be really awful, I guess when I try to think about myself and try to put myself in this situation, I, like Vicky, always get stuck on the "what it feels like to be a woman" other than the physical differences and i can't think of anything that makes me feel like a woman, I guess besides how people treat me I suppose but that's not me though, that's other people treating me a certain way because of my physical appearance

[King Gizzard]

be who you want

[Ronald.]

Originally Posted by Nathan

be who you want

Couldn't have put it better myself . R.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Dame Jenni Murray has written of her fury over transgender women who claim the label of “real woman”

ok who specifically are we talking about here?

which women, what are their names?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Dame Jenni Murray has written of her fury over transgender women who claim the label of “real woman”

ok who specifically are we talking about here?

which women, what are their names?

Here is one fairly prominent one
http://www.daniellemuscato.com/

Again, depends on your meaning of transwoman though doesn't it. My understanding of it until recently was someone who had 'transitioned' so to speak, meaning had SRS or is planning it (seriously, not as a new whim thing).

But I mean...if we are to take this 'you are whatever you say you are' and 'its nothing to do with sex stereotypes' to its logical conclusion, then Danielle is indeed as much a woman as a female person and it is bigoted to say anything but? I actually used to think Danielle was a parody...however there are more and more people like 'her'. There are actually 'transwomen' out there telling lesbians that they are bigoted for not wanting penis. And so on.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

A short summary of both would be
One disliking the way that they look - more visual/emotional
One disliking the way that they are - more cognitive

A body dysmophic person doesnt think they are a good looking person in a bad looking persons body.
A transgender person sees an accurate representation of the way that they look

It was actually painful for someone to mistake the two? I wonder if BDD was the disorder I was looking for in this case...a friend of mine had multiple plastic surgeries to 'fix' herself when she didn't need to. It became an obsession. She thought she was 'wrong' the way she looked. I actually thought this was BDD. Kind of like Lea from BB7. Basically, IMO both are cases of people hating perfectly normal bodies to the point of being in severe distress and having various surgeries to 'fix' them.

Again, what are your thoughts on trans-abled people? Surely thats exactly the same as transgender?

Directing me to reddit is not a good idea After I formed my opinions on this, I was directed to reddit a lot to try and prove me wrong and thats where I discovered how it really was NOT rare for transwomen to feel lesbians were 'transphobic' for not sucking their 'ladydicks' and such. Its where I discovered the phenomena of many many transwomen who realised they were trans after curiously trying on their teenage daughters panties and discovering doing so gave them an erection...and so on. So yeah, while trying to get AWAY from whats claimed to be 'extremists' in this case, reddit is really not the place to send people

[RichardG]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Here is one fairly prominent one
http://www.daniellemuscato.com/

Again, depends on your meaning of transwoman though doesn't it. My understanding of it until recently was someone who had 'transitioned' so to speak, meaning had SRS or is planning it (seriously, not as a new whim thing).

But I mean...if we are to take this 'you are whatever you say you are' and 'its nothing to do with sex stereotypes' to its logical conclusion, then Danielle is indeed as much a woman as a female person and it is bigoted to say anything but? I actually used to think Danielle was a parody...however there are more and more people like 'her'. There are actually 'transwomen' out there telling lesbians that they are bigoted for not wanting penis. And so on.

welp i was scrolling through all the pages of that site trying to find the woman, it took me like two minutes to realise

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by RichardG

welp i was scrolling through all the pages of that site trying to find the woman, it took me like two minutes to realise

[RichardG]

she could at least shave the beard

[Vicky.]

Its not about stereotypes though is it? Nothing to do with looks, biology or anything. SOLELY a 'feeling' that you are a woman? Isn't this the current line?

[RichardG]

if you say so

[Vicky.]

Indeed

[thesheriff443]

All human embryos start out as female they only change to a male after several weeks if dna changes happen.
For me this is a link between people feeling they are born in the wrong body.
Treat others as you want to be treated and you wont go wrong.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

All human embryos start out as female they only change to a male after several weeks if dna changes happen.
For me this is a link between people feeling they are born in the wrong body.
Treat others as you want to be treated and you wont go wrong.

Nice enough thought, but it goes a bit deeper than that. In some areas, sex does actually matter over dress sense and feelings. For example...do you think there is a need for prisons to be separated into male and female. if not, why not? If so, how can we get around the issue of needing sex segregation for whatever reason, whilst still looking after the 'feelings' of the person who feels the opposite sex but is not?

Treat others as you wish to be treated, let people wear what they like without prejudice, look however they like, have whatever surgery they like...agreed. But sex kind of does matter.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Nice enough thought, but it goes a bit deeper than that. In some areas, sex does actually matter over dress sense and feelings. For example...do you think there is a need for prisons to be separated into male and female. if not, why not? If so, how can we get around the issue of needing sex segregation for whatever reason, whilst still looking after the 'feelings' of the person who feels the opposite sex but is not?

Treat others as you wish to be treated, let people wear what they like without prejudice, look however they like, have whatever surgery they like...agreed. But sex kind of does matter.

Humans make the rules and laws and some of these rules and laws are based on a persons sex based on weather they where born male or female.

Life is deep and complicated, I have an opinion but having an opinion does not count for much.

[DemolitionRed]

Nobody chooses to be transgender. People who do go through the transition do so to feel more like their true self. How can we say they aren’t real women or real men when gender is more complicated than being man or woman.

As for stereotyping, everyone is put in boxes by their families, their religion, by society even by our own bodies. Gender has always been considered a fact, immutable, but we now know its more fluid, complex and mysterious and not just about the genitalia we were born with.

Why should a male who has transitioned to become a female accept she should be known as transgender? This wasn’t some flippant decision; it’s a huge life changing decision and its such a public thing it has to be terrifying. When my male friend started uni, on his signing in day a woman called out his name and then loudly declared that she’d made a mistake because they thought he was a boy, not a girl. The truth is, he couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without someone noticing and so during the transitioning process his life was full of stares, sniggers and whispers. I can’t imagine how hard that must have been, can you?

As far as I'm concerned he's all 'man' and he's a ****ing hero.

[Vicky.]

Demolition...what is your definition of man/woman?

Yes, gender is more complicated than sex. Because gender...is all in ones head.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Why should a male who has transitioned to become a female accept she should be known as transgender? This wasn’t some flippant decision; it’s a huge life changing decision and its such a public thing it has to be terrifying. When my male friend started uni, on his signing in day a woman called out his name and then loudly declared that she’d made a mistake because they thought he was a boy, not a girl. The truth is, he couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without someone noticing and so during the transitioning process his life was full of stares, sniggers and whispers. I can’t imagine how hard that must have been, can you?

As far as I'm concerned he's all 'man' and he's a ****ing hero.

You kind of lost me here?