[Cal.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

so we should stop saying LGBTQI?

That was India's point.

I disagree with her however as it's quite easy to distinguish between the L, G, B, T and Q.

You wouldn't call a gay man a lesbian.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Cal.

That was India's point.

I disagree with her however as it's quite easy to distinguish between the L, G, B, T and Q.

You wouldn't call a gay man a lesbian.

What is this thread even about anymore

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Cal.

That was India's point.

I disagree with her however as it's quite easy to distinguish between the L, G, B, T and Q.

You wouldn't call a gay man a lesbian.

Well i would not be surprised if a gay man-lesbian was a thing nowadays so i would be careful what you say there

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Cal.

That was India's point.

I disagree with her however as it's quite easy to distinguish between the L, G, B, T and Q.

You wouldn't call a gay man a lesbian.

but you can call a lesbian a gay woman, how can this be seen as equality

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Paula D

Sorry Greg but that is bs.

Someone pre-op is a man.

I listened to an interview with Caitlyn Jenner the other night and she referred to her former self as "he" so now you're just trying to stir trouble.

Different people refer to themselves differently in this respect tbh. It's a complicated one, because their biological sex didn't match how they felt, some people will refer to the sex they were biologically and some will refer to the gender they felt they were. So it can really depend what aspect of themselves they're talking about, if it's something mental or physical for example.
Also some people refer to their biological sex in the past tense just to please others.
And some actually refer to their pre-op selves in the 3rd person although I think it's generally advised by medical professionals that they shouldn't.
Everyone's different basically, what Greg's saying isn't actually wrong in terms of how a trans person might feel, it can just be really complicated and one trans person can't really be used as a representative example because of those reasons ^ as well as gender dysphoria just being more/less extreme in different people. I think it's easy for those of us without issues like this to simplify it into biological terms only it's just a much more complex way of thinking about gender and sex for those that do.

[Bluelight]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

If he had the op to feel better about himself he's wasted NHS money because Ive never seen a more bitter, miserable woman

“He”?

As someone with a transgender relative I’m shocked at the ignorance here. Trans people ARE in pain. Gender Dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, and it can kill people. I don’t think anyone would actually op for it on a shopping list of procedures, because being trans clearly still carries a major stigma. It’s a tough life. And I for one think india looks amazing!!!

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Bluelight

“He”?

As someone with a transgender relative I’m shocked at the ignorance here. Trans people ARE in pain. Gender Dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, and it can kill people. I don’t think anyone would actually op for it on a shopping list of procedures, because being trans clearly still carries a major stigma. It’s a tough life. And I for one think india looks amazing!!!

try reading the rest of the thread

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Bluelight

“He”?

As someone with a transgender relative I’m shocked at the ignorance here. Trans people ARE in pain. Gender Dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, and it can kill people. I don’t think anyone would actually op for it on a shopping list of procedures, because being trans clearly still carries a major stigma. It’s a tough life. And I for one think india looks amazing!!!

this is what happens when you dont read the thread

[Bluelight]

Originally Posted by Cal.

Anyway, I think that life threatening procedures and treatments should be implemented before anything else. However, I do think gender reassignment should also be high up on the priority list as it's for a medical condition like anything else. But like people have been saying all series, you wouldn't have a cancer doctor/ward etc dealing with gender reassignment since that is a plastic surgeon's job

If you have gender dysphoria it’s almost fifty/fifty that you might kill yourself to stop the torment. Official medical stats. That’s actually worse than some cancers, so the surgery is life saving. For the people who have it (and their families) it’s just as important as cancer surgery.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Greg!

What a ridiculous comment. Obviously suicide is not something that ONLY happens to trans people but the rates are much higher.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882090/

Of the 298 transgender women, 41.5%of participants had 1 or more mental health or substance dependence diagnoses; 1 in 5 (20.1%) had 2 or more comorbid psychiatric diagnoses. Prevalence of specific disorders was as follows: lifetime and current major depressive episode, 35.4%and 14.7%, respectively; suicidality, 20.2%; generalized anxiety disorder, 7.9%; posttraumatic stress disorder, 9.8%; alcohol dependence, 11.2%; and nonalcohol psychoactive substance use dependence, 15.2%.

This is likely a large part of it. A lot of co-morbid mental health issues.

Also suicide rates are actually higher for trans people after transitioning (not right after, but I think it was 5/10 years later..will find the study in a bit) so it does not actually reduce the suicide rate at all. It does short term, proabbly the same was that someone with BDD having plastic surgery makes them feel better for a short period of time.

As for the question in the OP..I really do not know. I do agree life saving treatments should come first tbh but who decides whats life saving? I think its ridiculous that some kids with cancer have to be crowdfunding for treatments whilst boob jobs and such are given out though. I think there needs to be more studies done on transgender people and the medical outcomes of various treatments though, to understand it all better as it does not seem that surrect treatment regimes actually do work. Research into detransitioners was blocked recently...its odd.

[Bluelight]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

On tonights show we see India trying to get a rise out of Ann ( getting a tad boring now ) Ann being a great Lady she is told India in no uncertain terms that NHS cash should go on medical ,life saving things BEFORE it goes on peoples fancies ...... Who is in the right ?

The post title is flawed. Gender Dysphoria treatment is a medical condition. If not treated, it can kill. Death rates are high. And it’s not a “choice” as you imply by the word “fancy.” Read up on it, but not in the tabloid newspapers.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marches

Gasp having a different opinion

It’s been fairly unexplored ever since it was added to the dsm and a lot of people dismiss it as like social justice warriory gender non conforming crap, mostly because certain people who call themselves trans are the sort of people who cross dress for attention. It’s cheapened it’s reputation but it’s a real condition that just hasn’t been classified as a medical illness yet, which a lot of people suffering from it have been trying to change

This is not helped by the definition of trans including crossdressers tbh

Needs to go back to being transsexual, not 'transgender' IMO. Transgender encompasses a ridiculous amount of people. I am classed as ****ing transgender when I do not actually have sex dysphoria.

[Bluelight]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882090/


This is likely a large part of it. A lot of co-morbid mental health issues.

Also suicide rates are actually higher for trans people after transitioning (not right after, but I think it was 5/10 years later..will find the study in a bit) so it does not actually reduce the suicide rate at all. It does short term, proabbly the same was that someone with BDD having plastic surgery makes them feel better for a short period of time.

As for the question in the OP..I really do not know. I do agree life saving treatments should come first tbh but who decides whats life saving? I think its ridiculous that some kids with cancer have to be crowdfunding for treatments whilst boob jobs and such are given out though. I think there needs to be more studies done on transgender people and the medical outcomes of various treatments though, to understand it all better as it does not seem that surrect treatment regimes actually do work. Research into detransitioners was blocked recently...its odd.

Those figures are based on research in the 50s. More than 90% of people who surgically transition are happy. Again, it’s medically accepted around the world as the right treatment route. Have you thought about this though: imagine transitioning and then still living in a world where people call you “he” and “him”, make fun of how you look, and don’t treat you with dignity. Do you think that might make someone depressed?
Personally, I think that reaction by OTHERS would wear me down - even though I personally had done everythjng I could to be happy. So, as one of the “others”, why can’t we just treat people with respect and stop denigrating them?

This article explains, with sources https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6160626

[Patricia4]

Ann is right

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882090/


This is likely a large part of it. A lot of co-morbid mental health issues.

Also suicide rates are actually higher for trans people after transitioning (not right after, but I think it was 5/10 years later..will find the study in a bit) so it does not actually reduce the suicide rate at all. It does short term, proabbly the same was that someone with BDD having plastic surgery makes them feel better for a short period of time.

As for the question in the OP..I really do not know. I do agree life saving treatments should come first tbh but who decides whats life saving? I think its ridiculous that some kids with cancer have to be crowdfunding for treatments whilst boob jobs and such are given out though. I think there needs to be more studies done on transgender people and the medical outcomes of various treatments though, to understand it all better as it does not seem that surrect treatment regimes actually do work. Research into detransitioners was blocked recently...its odd.

Detransitioning's an interesting one, I've looked into that too and it's hard to really find much on it, but from what I've seen there's actually a lot of people who detransition and then later transition back again... de-de-transitioning (I say 'a lot' but the figures for trans people is small to start with never mind detransitioners.) But from individual accounts the reasons for detransitioning seem to be mainly because of difficulties in life after transitioning, relationships with loved ones breaking down, problems within careers, etc etc, rather than actually being because they are no longer trans or incorrectly diagnosed (although that could also be possible for some). So it's like weighing up the struggle of coping with gender dysphoria and presenting as their biological sex, with struggling post-op for whatever reason, but then like I say for a lot of them the dysphoria ends up increasing again after detransitioning and they try again, (and I wonder if these people are still included in figures of detransitioners). And perhaps a part of it could be down to some of them not being fully mentally prepared for such a change and they end up needing more time I don't know. Completely off topic sorry

[Bluelight]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Detransitioning's an interesting one, I've looked into that too and it's hard to really find much on it, but from what I've seen there's actually a lot of people who detransition and then later transition back again... de-de-transitioning (I say 'a lot' but the figures for trans people is small to start with never mind detransitioners.) But from individual accounts the reasons for detransitioning seem to be mainly because of difficulties in life after transitioning, relationships with loved ones breaking down, problems within careers, etc etc, rather than actually being because they are no longer trans or incorrectly diagnosed (although that could also be possible for some). So it's like weighing up the struggle of coping with gender dysphoria and presenting as their biological sex, with struggling post-op for whatever reason, but then like I say for a lot of them the dysphoria ends up increasing again after detransitioning and they try again, (and I wonder if these people are still included in figures of detransitioners). And perhaps a part of it could be down to some of them not being fully mentally prepared for such a change and they end up needing more time I don't know. Completely off topic sorry

My advice: talk to someone who’s actually transgender/transsexual. There are lots of studies funded by religious, conservative or radical feminist groups that go on about detransitiing. Actually, it’s very uncommon. But it helps portray people who ate transgender as being simply confused, or mixed up. And puts a wuestion over whether funding surgery is worthwhile. You find what you look for on the internet.

Here’s a link. Sub heafing number 3 Regret is uncommon https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6160626

[Vicky.]

I don't call transwomen he or transmen she. But I do have issues occasionally (India was one of those ones actually) where my brain just cannot help seeing a male merson, and as such, I use he by mistake.

And yes, other peoples reactions to you could well make you feel suicidal I guess. But dismissing any other reason is a bit silly.

And its not research from the 50s at all. It specifically says where its from

Between 2012 and 2015, 300 young transgender women were enrolled in Project LifeSkills, an ongoing multisite trial in Chicago, Illinois (51%), and Boston, Massachusetts (49%), testing the efficacy of a culturally tailored, empowerment-based, and group-delivered HIV prevention intervention aimed at reducing youths’ risk for HIV acquisition and transmission.

I guess you didn't read it and just want to dismiss any possibility that there are other mental health issues going on at the same time in many many trans people, for some reason.

Much much more research needs to go into the whole thing. issue it, research is deemed transphobic. And asking questions is deemed transphobic. And any medical intervention besides surgery and hormones is deemed gatekeeping.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Bluelight

My advice: talk to someone who’s actually transgender/transsexual. There are lots of studies funded by religious, conservative or radical feminist groups that go on about detransitiing. Actually, it’s very uncommon. But it helps portray people who ate transgender as being simply confused, or mixed up. And puts a wuestion over whether funding surgery is worthwhile. You find what you look for on the internet.

Research into detransitioners is blocked for some reason

https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...ersal-research

According to Caspian, the university said: “Engaging in a potentially politically incorrect piece of research carries a risk to the university. Attacks on social media may not be confined to the researcher, but may involve the university

Scared of the social media reaction, and the reaction of rabid transactivists.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7965281.html

Mr Caspian argued the research needed to be done as he had found growing numbers of young people who were regretting having surgery, and he said some were even “traumatised”.

His research proposal was influenced by a conversation with Dr Miroslav Djordjevic of the Belgrade Centre for Genital Reconstructive Surgery in 2014. Mr Djordjevic said he had carried out seven reversals that year, more than ever before.

Could it be that certain people just do not want to acknowledge that there are detransitioners and they are not as rare as unicorns like some would have you believe

Surely ANY research into transgender stuff should be welcomed to understand the whole thing better

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Patricia4

Ann is right

Thank God for a voice of reason ,who answered the simple question above

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Bluelight

My advice: talk to someone who’s actually transgender/transsexual. There are lots of studies funded by religious, conservative or radical feminist groups that go on about detransitiing. Actually, it’s very uncommon. But it helps portray people who ate transgender as being simply confused, or mixed up. And puts a wuestion over whether funding surgery is worthwhile. You find what you look for on the internet.

Here’s a link. Sub heafing number 3 Regret is uncommon https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6160626

I agree with what you're saying, that's what I mean about the figures for it being so small, I wasn't trying to make it sound like something common I just think detransitioning is interesting to try and understand - and I don't doubt a lot of information out there is agenda driven propaganda. A close friend of mine is a transsexual man and I feel like I have a good understanding of what he's been through and continues to go through (although we don't talk about it very often) so I know gender dysphoria isn't about simply being confused or anything like that. Thanks for the link I'll check it out.

[Bluelight]

They don’t “want”. They NEED. If this survery is not available, a high percentage of trans people kill themselves. Unless you - like Ann - believe that conversion therapy is an option, the only treatment is gender reassignment surgery. You deem to be labouring under the impression it’s a lifestyle choice?

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Bluelight

They don’t “want”. They NEED. If this survery is not available, a high percentage of trans people kill themselves. Unless you - like Ann - believe that conversion therapy is an option, the only treatment is gender reassignment surgery. You deem to be labouring under the impression it’s a lifestyle choice?

A lot of people kill themselves, it doesn't mean the NHS should panderer to their "wants"

[Bluelight]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't call transwomen he or transmen she. But I do have issues occasionally (India was one of those ones actually) where my brain just cannot help seeing a male merson, and as such, I use he by mistake.

And yes, other peoples reactions to you could well make you feel suicidal I guess. But dismissing any other reason is a bit silly.

And its not research from the 50s at all. It specifically says where its from



I guess you didn't read it and just want to dismiss any possibility that there are other mental health issues going on at the same time in many many trans people, for some reason.

Much much more research needs to go into the whole thing. issue it, research is deemed transphobic. And asking questions is deemed transphobic. And any medical intervention besides surgery and hormones is deemed gatekeeping.

You find what you seek on the internet, in terms of studies. We could play tennis all day. I’ll stick with what the accepted medical view is around the globe, from people who know a good study from a bad one. To be blunt. - it’s clear you do not have respect for transgender people, or take them seriously. So no point in exchanging huff and puff counter arguments.

[susie q]

The NHS has a limited budget, which means that sometimes tough decisions have to be made. Someone is always going to loose out. More money for the NHS isnt always option either, because that would mean paying more NI, tax etc. Speaking as someone who struggles to make ends meet, I would find this difficult, and wouldnt be happy to fund things that dont require treatment for medically recognised conditions. Im happy for transgender to undergo surgery to achieve there goal, but not at someone elses expense.
Perhaps there are other workable solutions out there that they shoould explore.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by susie q

The NHS has a limited budget, which means that sometimes tough decisions have to be made. Someone is always going to loose out. More money for the NHS isnt always option either, because that would mean paying more NI, tax etc. Speaking as someone who struggles to make ends meet, I would find this difficult, and wouldnt be happy to fund things that dont require treatment for medically recognised conditions. Im happy for transgender to undergo surgery to achieve there goal, but not at someone elses expense.
Perhaps there are other workable solutions out there that they shoould explore.

Ive no problem either with it, as long as they fund it themselves, why should people forfeit life saving operations for someones fancy? same with all plastic surgery without its after a crash or cancer etc, not their choice