[Maru]

And if there is, what do you think it is?

And if there isn't, do you think there will ever be able to come to a moral consensus and if so, what do you think it would look like?


I would vote no. I think we can see it when on both sides are operating on older standards, modes of thinking. People walk into strawmans and don't know how they have become valid discourse, (i.e. PC Police, etc), because as far as they knew it, they aren't operating outside what they themselves consider to be a societal norm.

I think society, albiet in a very self-destructive way, is coming about a revolution in terms of how we treat morality amongst each other and how we handle disagreements when there is a value disparity...

Obviously it's important to know the answer to this question, but whatever the consensus is, will dictate how law enforcement, communities, and even laws are managed and created in order to uphold a societal standard. However, if that standard is in question... then it makes it rather difficult to close the argument so to speak on what constitutes moral injustices in our society, and it makes it rather difficult for us to investigate deep-rooted issues in our communities if we're stuck at the surface fighting for the right to lead that search.

[parmnion]

I just look forward to pay day maru...sorry.

[MTVN]

I think so. We all have fairly similar laws really and we all have similar means of upholding those laws. And we're largely agreed on things like religious freedom, gender equality etc. Obviously there will be differences and people who are more conservative than others but I think you could transplant someone from one Western country and place them in another and they wouldn't find themselves that taken aback by that country's values

[Kizzy]

Of course there is, young people are as woke af now.... change is coming

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

young people are as woke af now...

No more than ever to be honest Kizzy. I mean, have you been in Chat & Games lately? Or the on-season forums?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No more than ever to be honest Kizzy. I mean, have you been in Chat & Games lately? Or the on-season forums?

I tend to broaden my scope, that's how I know they are ... Did you watch the Brit awards?

[Mystic Mock]

I don't think that I've ever known people be so divided since I've been alive like we are at the moment, it's utter chaos.

[Maru]

Very interesting poll answers and dialogue so far. Keep em coming. I want to hear from both sides

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No more than ever to be honest Kizzy. I mean, have you been in Chat & Games lately?

Please don't judge today's youth on the disgusting sexual escapades of Lilbro and Sullen_Girl.

[Maru]

8 people voted? So is that the entirety of SD? Well, it is a slow Saturday...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Maru

8 people voted? So is that the entirety of SD? Well, it is a slow Saturday...

8? ... Yeah I'm pretty sure everyone who understands the question has voted.

[Northern Monkey]

Such a big question really.Not a yes or no answer for me so i can’t vote.It depends how deep you wanna go.

From country to country within the establishments that have been built up thus far then my answer would be this -
Overall pretty much generally yes.But not totally and times are a changing with western countries all facing new pressures which may start to fracture cohesion.Plus we have Brexit.

Amongst the population i’d have to say -
No,There are multiple concensuses within each country and the gaps are getting wider with the internet playing a massive role.
This would be the short uncomplicated answer from my pov but you could write a collection of books trying to answer that question i reckon.

[rk3388]

No the problem is so many see issues as black and white.

The party system, particularly in the US, makes people support wrong ideas just because it's the opinion their party holds. For instance, Republicans who might not "believe" in climate change because it's Democrat's agenda to reduce fossil fuel emissions. Same with issues like Gun control and health care system etc

I think in the West it's the US in particular who have very poor morals - look who got elected! Here in Canada there are also many cities full of ignorant ignorant people

[Maru]

If it feels like a broad question, it's because it's meant to get people to think about their answer (I probably should've added a third & fourth option...)... How do we (or you) define our moral consensus for example? What makes up a unified identity/dialogue, etc..

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Maru

And if there is, what do you think it is?

And if there isn't, do you think there will ever be able to come to a moral consensus and if so, what do you think it would look like?


I would vote no. I think we can see it when on both sides are operating on older standards, modes of thinking. People walk into strawmans and don't know how they have become valid discourse, (i.e. PC Police, etc), because as far as they knew it, they aren't operating outside what they themselves consider to be a societal norm.

I think society, albiet in a very self-destructive way, is coming about a revolution in terms of how we treat morality amongst each other and how we handle disagreements when there is a value disparity...

Obviously it's important to know the answer to this question, but whatever the consensus is, will dictate how law enforcement, communities, and even laws are managed and created in order to uphold a societal standard. However, if that standard is in question... then it makes it rather difficult to close the argument so to speak on what constitutes moral injustices in our society, and it makes it rather difficult for us to investigate deep-rooted issues in our communities if we're stuck at the surface fighting for the right to lead that search.

Less so I would say. More and more people are out for themselves and to hell with anyone else. The young in particular have been allowed to become very self indulgent and 'entitled' including men who say they feel like women being allowed to self-indulge to the point of complete selfishness and at the expense of many other people. It is not advancement in my opinion - just playing to people's self-indulgent obsessions. It does not bode well for the future.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Less so I would say. More and more people are out for themselves and to hell with anyone else. The young in particular have been allowed to become very self indulgent and 'entitled' including men who say they feel like women being allowed to self-indulge to the point of complete selfishness and at the expense of many other people. It is not advancement in my opinion - just playing to people's self-indulgent obsessions. It does not bode well for the future.

And yet at the same time, you also tend to brand most young people as "lefties", meaning socialists... when socialist policies are the OPPOSITE of being "out for oneself" and right-leaning capitalism is the very definition of self-serving. How can young people be both "only out for themselves", and ALSO "bleeding heart lefty socialists".

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

And yet at the same time, you also tend to brand most young people as "lefties", meaning socialists... when socialist policies are the OPPOSITE of being "out for oneself" and right-leaning capitalism is the very definition of self-serving. How can young people be both "only out for themselves", and ALSO "bleeding heart lefty socialists".

[Kizzy]

One thing that has always puzzled me is why the left are slurred with labels that are suggesting that any moral or ethical consideration on any given topic is a negative?...
Very odd

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

One thing that has always puzzled me is why the left are slurred with labels that are suggesting that any moral or ethical consideration on any given topic is a negative?...
Very odd

It's not odd at all. The right are amoral and selfish, but they hate being called out on that hence their attempts to ridicule ethical approach to anything

the right dislikes: women rights, sexual equality, foreign aid, universal healthcare, enviroment protection, etc - things that are designed to benefit others or all of us

the right loves: tax cuts, guns, minimum financial regulation, etc - things designed to benefit individuals (only those in a position to benefit, so not everybody)

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

It's not odd at all. The right are amoral and selfish, but they hate being called out on that hence their attempts to ridicule ethical approach to anything

the right dislikes: women rights, sexual equality, foreign aid, universal healthcare, enviroment protection, etc - things that are designed to benefit others or all of us

the right loves: tax cuts, guns, minimum financial regulation, etc - things designed to benefit individuals (only those in a position to benefit, so not everybody)

Wow... we've gone off the rails if we've all started to paint each other with broad strokes. I know I see people on the right like Brillo, etc who are notorious with their broad strokes (sorry Brillo), but if more and more of us start thinking like this... we're on the wrong path imo.

The right doesn't have a higher moral or ethical authority, and I don't personally feel this way about the left either. For the left, I'm more concerned we're disregarding history when we try to achieve certain things, and ignoring the ill effects on society in the process as "unfortunate side effects" is sad in any case... but there is room to disagree in how to address those side effects... I think.

I've watched a lot of left (well, my generation was raised on it) and right media. One of the arguments of the right, is that socialism is theft... which to some degree is true. It's arguing someone who earned their way through merit is not allowed to enjoy their own fruits... that because they may be earning it in a way that is "opportunistic" (are they really???), then we have to take large portions of their earnings and give it to the rest of society.

With abortion for example, both sides of the argument would consider their arguments to have the moral high-ground or setting the "actual" standard...

I think if we think we have moral authority because we hold certain opinions, that's quite sad... we don't have moral "authority" for simply our views... as there is no singular moral "authority". I hope, that we own as individuals gain however a reputation of morality... but to say because we truly believe in something, that that somehow makes "you" lesser than "I", it's regressive because we're assuming that the intentions of the person make up more than their actions...

How many people are nasty to each other just because of what they believe? That to me is not a moral behavior... and I wouldn't think higher of them simply because they had better "intentions" (and that's arguable too if they're nasty to others in order to achieve some "moral" end?...). We've become corrupted by our beliefs if we've forgotten the point to having a value system or having any sort of moral guide at all, is how we treat each other as individuals when in our company?...

Anyway, not addressing your words specifically. Some realizations hit me at once is all... and your thoughts brought a couple of things to mind up in my own mind that I felt the need to touch on...

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Less so I would say. More and more people are out for themselves and to hell with anyone else. The young in particular have been allowed to become very self indulgent and 'entitled' including men who say they feel like women being allowed to self-indulge to the point of complete selfishness and at the expense of many other people. It is not advancement in my opinion - just playing to people's self-indulgent obsessions. It does not bode well for the future.

To address you specifically, than talk about you in some round about way (), I will reply specifically.... personally, I agree with this statement @Teal, but I think this is true for every generation, especially the past 50-60 so odd years. That has been a complaint, I'm not sure of the right or left... it may not necessarily be either?

@Purple Isn't that human nature though? And don't many people propose a different recipe for the antibiotic that will cure society of that ailment? Whose to say it's our beliefs that lead to this? Or is it our actions? Is it instead believing we each are immune from the disease of our very being (our human nature)... on the basis of our beliefs alone.

It would seem the most authoritative believers of the left/right would say that it is their goal to overcome our very nature, to become pure and morally clean subjects of society... but to gain this, we have to dirty our hands so to speak, by using ill words and suppressing the thoughts and opinions of those who are "contagion" to be dealt with...

You know, I'm not so worried about the core believers of either (or any) group. Those people simply have different beliefs and ideas of how to further progress society... but when we start to think it makes up for any shortcomings of our identity or makes up for our treatment of others (things we're not so proud of), then I think we are overcompensating, all people in this category, for our own shortcomings as human-beings when we staunchly hang onto our belief systems as some sort of emblem... and probably society too, especially in the case of America, she's having a small narcissistic fit atm, but slowly recovering I feel like... she is receiving a much needed come home to Jesus moment about the lack of depth to our core identity and how we actually treat each other as a society...

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Maru

Anyway, not addressing your words specifically. Some realizations hit me at once is all... and your thoughts brought a couple of things to mind up in my own mind that I felt the need to touch on...

Oh, no worries. I find you are one of the most polite and thoughtful posters around, even if I may not agree with you on specific issues.

[Ammi]

..I don’t think younger people are self indulgent and entitled at all...I think they have to think differently to what was more typical for older people back in the day of their 20s/30s etc...because of all the negative changes ...younger people have to think more about pensions at an earlier age..much, much earlier ...because neither government or employer will be ‘looking out for them’ ..they don’t have the same opportunities of progressing in jobs without academic qualifications, it’s not impossible but it’s much rarer to achieve that now...investing in and striving for some type of pension in your 20s and 30s isn’t something that had to be addressed back in the day...at that early age...so the younger generation do have to consider ‘self’ quite a bit but for very good reason...I really do feel that it sucks for younger people now, compared to what I have known...

[Kizzy]

Post war people are 'entitled'... bahahaha!

In relation to 'the left' what are we disregarding historically?

'I'm more concerned we're disregarding history when we try to achieve certain things, and ignoring the ill effects on society in the process'

I've watched a lot of left (well, my generation was raised on it) and right media. One of the arguments of the right, is that socialism is theft... which to some degree is true. It's arguing someone who earned their way through merit is not allowed to enjoy their own fruits... that because they may be earning it in a way that is "opportunistic" (are they really???), then we have to take large portions of their earnings and give it to the rest of society.

Are you asking or telling here?... If you are meaning the strangle hold that capitalism has had specifically on the UK over recent years in relation to our energy, infrastructure, transport and utilities ... and now health and education then yes there very much is a need to address that.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don’t think younger people are self indulgent and entitled at all...I think they have to think differently to what was more typical for older people back in the day of their 20s/30s etc...because of all the negative changes ...younger people have to think more about pensions at an earlier age..much, much earlier ...because neither government or employer will be ‘looking out for them’ ..they don’t have the same opportunities of progressing in jobs without academic qualifications, it’s not impossible but it’s much rarer to achieve that now...investing in and striving for some type of pension in your 20s and 30s isn’t something that had to be addressed back in the day...at that early age...so the younger generation do have to consider ‘self’ quite a bit but for very good reason...I really do feel that it sucks for younger people now, compared to what I have known...

I agree in general that young people have had to deal with some additional adversity with respect to generations in the past in certain areas. However, that doesn't give then give them rights to entitlements they 'feel' they deserve simply because they weren't given the start they would've preferred. We've all had our share of adversity in our beginnings... they have the benefits though of growing up on a foundation where a lot of paths have already been smoothed out and laid for them... so I don't think I can agree they've had it harder than any other generation. Maybe some things that used to be easier are harder, but then other things that used to be harder are much easier... but overall I'd argue it's much easier than it used to be...

And when we consider the state of our respective nations to others across the Earth, it feels a bit silly to talk about these as true "hardships" when you and I live in one of the healthiest, safety and freest countries on the planet... at least the youth have momentum at which to move forward with and be mobile as a generation... in other countries, their momentum would be quite restricted to certain fields and economic levels. I don't feel that is the case for the US, not at all with the luxuries we can enjoy, but I wouldn't really know for certain with the UK, because I know almost nothing about politics or the socioeconomic situation there...

So I can't say it sucks for the younguns... at least not here.