[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You have never been on the receiving end of being assaulted, verballly or sexually abused.

You don't know me.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I didn't say women don't face sexism.

I also didn't say I knew better.

Do I think much of the attitude displayed in much of the OP's link? Not really. Nor do I think it justifies the casual sexism thrown at men as some kind of retaliation.

I don't wish to get all "the truth" on a topic about women, that's really not me. But it smacks of self victimisation. Especially in several topics on this forum when I'm told my opinion holds no validity as a man.

Equality doesn't come from a war with the group you want parity with imo. No, I'm not a woman, does that make me incapable of comprehending injustice or discrimination? No. Does it make me incapable of relating to a fellow human being? No.

What casual sexism was thrown at you though? What I've seen is women talking about women and you taking that as a slight against men.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

No. But you won't point out all of the female posters making regular condescending and derogatory remarks about men and male posters. That doesn't fit the narrative.

Maybe it's because it feels like we're still being dictated to, told what and how to think, what to be called, how we should react.... men have had a good couple of thousand year run, now women are thinking and acting for themselves without having to have permission.

No one here has a problem with me, only with men telling them how to be women and what should please or enrage us. I don't know how to be a man. I wouldn't have the chutzpah to tell you how to feel or what to be called.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

You don't know me.

Because you are a woman - you conveniently missed that bit out.

No-one is saying men don’t get assaulted but it is less likely to be due to a sexual motive - although before you jump in with a ‘men get sexually assaulted too’ comment - I know that, but it has been happening to women for centuries. And as there are more heterosexual men than gay men it is a bigger problem.

Womens’ physical disadvantage also makes them easy targets for cowards and there are plenty of them around.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe it's because it feels like we're still being dictated to, told what and how to think, what to be called, how we should react.... men have had a good couple of thousand year run, now women are thinking and acting for themselves without having to have permission.

No one here has a problem with me, only with men telling them how to be women and what should please or enrage us. I don't know how to be a man. I wouldn't have the chutzpah to tell you how to feel or what to be called.

Funny that, because not once have I told anyone man woman or dog how they should feel about anything.

I haven't dictated any of the things listed. It's not every man's fault that the world worked the way it has. And it has changed and continues to change for the better.

Holding every man up responsible for... having a penis is laughable though.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What casual sexism was thrown at you though? What I've seen is women talking about women and you taking that as a slight against men.

Not at all.
Several times in this thread and others I've had replies beginning with "you're a man" "you're male though you don't count". Laughably, even in threads where the topic is not even about women/female. That's what I take as a slight.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Because you are a woman - you conveniently missed that bit out.

No-one is saying men don’t get assaulted but it is less likely to be due to a sexual motive - although before you jump in with a ‘men get sexually assaulted too’ comment - I know that, but it has been happening to women for centuries. And as there are more heterosexual men than gay men it is a bigger problem.

Womens’ physical disadvantage also makes them easy targets for cowards and there are plenty of them around.

Men don't need to be women. Contrary to common sexist beliefs they are capable of empathy and emotion, of critical thinking and are certainly not all strangers to discrimination.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

No. But you won't point out all of the female posters making regular condescending and derogatory remarks about men and male posters. That doesn't fit the narrative.

Where?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Funny that, because not once have I told anyone man woman or dog how they should feel about anything.

I haven't dictated any of the things listed. It's not every man's fault that the world worked the way it has. And it has changed and continues to change for the better.

Holding every man up responsible for... having a penis is laughable though.

I'm not holding every man responsible, only those who repeatedly questioned why as a born woman, I object to having a new title given to me by a group of people who do not represent me. And since this thread started all your posts have been negative. For instance, your first comment was: So were basically criminal offences anyway and didn't require people in their ignorant quest for equality to actually perpetuate inequality Protecting the rights of women doesn't mean that men will suffer inequality, but every time there's a discussion about women, about misogyny, about domestic violence, about rape.... you can set your watch my the men who will arrive and give it "whataboutmenthough..." Women are supportive of men's issues, I've never seen a women enter a discussion about men's issues and say "what about women?"

[Marsh.]

They're negative because I disagree with the OP.

They continue to be negative because I'm then being challenged for being a man and having an opinion on women.

80% of the posts were negative because certain people decided to carry on their little games from another thread but that's mostly now been deleted.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

They're negative because I disagree with the OP.

They continue to be negative because I'm then being challenged for being a man and having an opinion on women.

80% of the posts were negative because certain people decided to carry on their little games from another thread but that's mostly now been deleted.

I know you disagreed, but why though? Do you think men lose something by having misogyny made a crime, just like other hate crimes?

Of course you can have an opinion, but it seems that every time a man demands the right to have his say on women's issues, they are negative and full of whataboutisms.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Not at all.
Several times in this thread and others I've had replies beginning with "you're a man" "you're male though you don't count". Laughably, even in threads where the topic is not even about women/female. That's what I take as a slight.

Well, It's certainly not my intention to shut you are anyone else down, I'm interested in everyone opinions, It's just I suppose, this topic accompanied with that trans topic and most especially, I suppose "what makes a woman a woman" (or a man a man aswell, it seems to have changed to more of a women topic though because it by far affects women and our rights over men and theirs) It feels a little bit like being told (and tbf in there it was all by men) that what we think and feel about being women is wrong. Anyway I don't want to fall out with you about it. These are just my thoughts on it all

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I know you disagreed, but why though? Do you think men lose something by having misogyny made a crime, just like other hate crimes?

Of course you can have an opinion, but it seems that every time a man demands the right to have his say on women's issues, they are negative and full of whataboutisms.

Demands the right to have his say?
No. Simply having his say.

Why whenever a man gives an opinion it's then twisted to be him stomping on women's turf and butting in?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Do you think if women were bigger and generally stronger than men this situation would be reversed?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Demands the right to have his say?
No. Simply having his say.

Why whenever a man gives an opinion it's then twisted to be him stomping on women's turf and butting in?

Only when the responses are negative. Like yours have been this time.

And yes, have your say... but make it constructive.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Do you think if women were bigger and generally stronger than men this situation would be reversed?

Quite possibly

[Vicky.]

I genuinely do not see why misogyny is not a hate crime to start with.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Do you think if women were bigger and generally stronger than men this situation would be reversed?

I have wondered this a lot.

I think the situation being as it is is a mix between women being physically less able to fight off attackers AND male socialization. So if there was a random reverse in strength, I think attacks on women would lessen to a large degree but I don't think that women would start attacking men instead and behaving the way men do. Unless there was also a change in how boys/girls are brought up at the same time. But even then I am not sure women would be attacking men on such a level because I think testosterone plays a large part in the aggressive side of so many mens behaviour too. So again, I guess if women started taking steroids along with the other changes...then possibly it might completely reverse

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well, It's certainly not my intention to shut you are anyone else down, I'm interested in everyone opinions, It's just I suppose, this topic accompanied with that trans topic and most especially, I suppose "what makes a woman a woman" (or a man a man aswell, it seems to have changed to more of a women topic though because it by far affects women and our rights over men and theirs) It feels a little bit like being told (and tbf in there it was all by men) that what we think and feel about being women is wrong. Anyway I don't want to fall out with you about it. These are just my thoughts on it all

Oh I'm not falling out with anyone about it.

But in regards to the other thread it wasn't my view that women don't have the right to feel how they feel as women but that their ire was directed at entirely the wrong thing and the biggest topic of conversation in the other thread was about something that didn't even solely concern women.

I just think the fact that it was a gender split in forum consensus that I objected to that being used as a reason to label me and my view on it "sexist" I found it baffling and if it wasn't so annoying I'd have found it hilarious too. When I wasn't being told I was sexist, I was being told I'm a man so don't understand (men don't think much you see) but the double standard in sexism didn't seem to apply.

This isn't a personal thing. I can't remember whether you personally posted anything in that vein but the general tone of the thread certainly was.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Only when the responses are negative. Like yours have been this time.

And yes, have your say... but make it constructive.

So if my response is negative I'm trampling on female territory and my opinion is not valid. But a positive one is acceptable and means it is suddenly worth something?

So basically, agree with me or shut up?

I'd rather not justify my viewpoint to such a ridiculous double standard.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

They're negative because I disagree with the OP.

They continue to be negative because I'm then being challenged for being a man and having an opinion on women.

80% of the posts were negative because certain people decided to carry on their little games from another thread but that's mostly now been deleted.

In the transphobic thread you, and others, consistently dismissed womens’ views on an issue that affects their privacy and safety - that suggested an element of hostility towards women and their rights.

It raised the issue of misogyny for me so I posted a thread on it. As far as subject matter is concerned I am playing no games and this thread has nothing to do with my response to your general game-playing in many threads. Believe me you really are not that relevant.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

In the transphobic thread you, and others, consistently dismissed womens’ views on an issue that affects their privacy and safety - that suggested an element of hostility towards women and their rights.

It raised the issue of misogyny for me so I posted a thread on it. As far as subject matter is concerned I am playing no games and this thread has nothing to do with my response to your general game-playing in many threads. Believe me you really are not that relevant.

No I really didnt.

All of your personal posts attacking me were deleted this morning so pack it in, eh?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So if my response is negative I'm trampling on female territory and my opinion is not valid. But a positive one is acceptable and means it is suddenly worth something?

So basically, agree with me or shut up?

I'd rather not justify my viewpoint to such a ridiculous double standard.

No, not at all. But your opinion on this has been clear. And you clearly don't agree with me, and that's fine. I'm not interested in making you justify your viewpoint. But I also have a right to challenge you when you're so negative over something so important.

You're one of my favourite people on here Marshy, of course I'm interested in your opinion, but we should be able to discuss it without you accusing me of shutting you down or having double standards.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Oh I'm not falling out with anyone about it.

But in regards to the other thread it wasn't my view that women don't have the right to feel how they feel as women but that their ire was directed at entirely the wrong thing and the biggest topic of conversation in the other thread was about something that didn't even solely concern women.

I just think the fact that it was a gender split in forum consensus that I objected to that being used as a reason to label me and my view on it "sexist" I found it baffling and if it wasn't so annoying I'd have found it hilarious too. When I wasn't being told I was sexist, I was being told I'm a man so don't understand (men don't think much you see) but the double standard in sexism didn't seem to apply.

This isn't a personal thing. I can't remember whether you personally posted anything in that vein but the general tone of the thread certainly was.

I see where you're coming from when you say that it isn't just a womens issue because technically speaking of course it is not. I think the problem is though (and why women are being most vocal/resistant to some of the issues raised in that other thread) it just won't effect men in any real way where as it will women. That's why it feels like men are less understanding of where we're coming from because yes it will effect you to a point but you seem to not really care about concerns we have.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

No, not at all. But your opinion on this has been clear. And you clearly don't agree with me, and that's fine. I'm not interested in making you justify your viewpoint. But I also have a right to challenge you when you're so negative over something so important.

You're one of my favourite people on here Marshy, of course I'm interested in your opinion, but we should be able to discuss it without you accusing me of shutting you down or having double standards.

But... You have shut me down with double standards.

In the posts asking me to expand my view you're telling me "Be positive or your dictating to women" "Men have valid opinions on female issues as long as it's positive". Basically an agree with me or shut up.

I like you Livia and enjoy your posts. This isn't personal.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So if my response is negative I'm trampling on female territory and my opinion is not valid. But a positive one is acceptable and means it is suddenly worth something?

So basically, agree with me or shut up?

I'd rather not justify my viewpoint to such a ridiculous double standard.

That has been your stance in every thread that I have seen you in and is exactly the reason why we have clashed because I have taken issue with your attitude that anyone, especially women it seemed, would be talked down to and ridiculed in an attempt to dismiss their opinions and shut them up.

Either you don’t know how you come across or or it is intentional - I know which I think it is.