[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So you're complaining that you want differentiation and then complaining when there's differentiation.

You just want to complain.

No, that's not it at all.

I am not a cis woman. I'm a woman. I don't need anything extra added.

Trans women are the ones that need the descriptor, not me. And yet they are trying to force one on me, and claiming I am trans phobic if I object to that.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I don't recall saying you haven't.

But I'm a man, so what I say matters even less than a transwoman.

That line you bolded was referring to the genders being equal, not trans and biological.

Cis-man

[Livia]

"........... trans activism looks increasingly like misogyny in drag. In the Moyet affair, if we are being honest, we essentially had men telling a woman to shut the **** up. We had men who think they are women, and some of their male allies too, attacking a woman for saying, ‘I am a woman’. That is sexism, pure and simple. That a woman can now be so relentlessly harassed for saying she wants to be referred to as a woman confirms that trans activism’s key achievement has been the diminution of women and the winding back of many of the great gains for women in recent years. Here’s a tip for male-to-female trans-people and their lefty male allies: if you find yourself insulting a woman because she describes herself as a woman, you’ve lost the plot, and you’ve lost the right to call yourself a progressive person."

Quite.

[Kazanne]

I'm sick and bored of all this gender talk,it just gets sillier and sillier a woman is a woman ,a man is a man, one who changes that is a transgender,I am sure most people can understand that,never heard of this word 'cis' are people making them up as they go along?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

No, that's not it at all.

I am not a cis woman. I'm a woman. I don't need anything extra added.

Trans women are the ones that need the descriptor, not me. And yet they are trying to force one on me, and claiming I am trans phobic if I object to that.

You've not had anything extra added. It's a descriptive word.

No different to someone describing you as a tall lady (or short idk). Nobody's asking you to add cis or tall or thin to your passport.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Cis-man

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I'm sick and bored of all this gender talk,it just gets sillier and sillier a woman is a woman ,a man is a man, one who changes that is a transgender,I am sure most people can understand that,never heard of this word 'cis' are people making them up as they go along?

Yes Kaz. Anything you've never heard of must simply be made up. That's how the world works.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

There is no re-brand.

Nobody's expecting men or women to start calling themselves anything.

It's merely a descriptive word.

so Alison Moyet being abused for not wanting to be called Cis is what.....

[Cherie]

Yesterday on another thread straights were told they couldn't understand gay issues, but on this thread we have men knowing what is best

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yesterday on another thread straights were told they couldn't understand gay issues, but on this thread we have men knowing what is best

Nothing really changes does it?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

so Alison Moyet being abused for not wanting to be called Cis is what.....

Is abuse. That doesn't change what I said.

Alison Moyet getting uppity about a descriptive word is also pathetic. But no that doesn't justify any abuse.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yesterday on another thread straights were told they couldn't understand gay issues, but on this thread we have men knowing what is best

Yeah because trans issues are all about women. Nothing to do with men. It's Not an issue that encompasses us all. Women transition into women after all.

Who said men know best?

If you have facts to add or a new idea to throw into the pot then join the discussion.

Or will you just continue to add snide remarks about the posters rather than the actual discussion?

[Tom4784]

I've never liked the term cis. When it comes to trans issues I like to keep things simple. Has the trans person transisitioned yet? If so then I consider them their chosen gender, if not then they are still their birth gender. You can't just decide one day that you are the opposite sex and that everyone has to treat you as such regardless of the state of your transition. I call people what they want to be called but you can't try to make out it's a hate crime if people don't use the right pronouns or disagree. It's underselling what a hate crime is and makes a mockery of all who have been victims of it.

Blurring the lines just lead to messy situations like this one and I think a lot of mtf trans people are letting the trans community down by going on the attack like this. I definitely think there's merit to the accusations of misogyny.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Is abuse. That doesn't change what I said.

Alison Moyet getting uppity about a descriptive word is also pathetic. But no that doesn't justify any abuse.

It is not getting uppity, it is her choice and she shouldn't have to be abused for it ....cis is a new made up term, nobody has to accept it because some prat somewhere decided it would be best

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yeah because trans issues are all about women. Nothing to do with men. It's Not an issue that encompasses us all. Women transition into women after all.

Who said men know best?

If you have facts to add or a new idea to throw into the pot then join the discussion.

Or will you just continue to add snide remarks about the posters rather than the actual discussion?

Snide remarks? well you are the expert

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Connotations of disease?

No it simply means what you said in your first paragraph biologically female and born as such. Transwoman meaning not biologically or born as such.

Whining that "Omg they are not women!!" Then also moaning about the terms that then differentiate between those born as women and those not is so childish and bordering on transphobic.

Just how you interpret my post as 'whining' and 'moaning' I do not know because I have not feebly complained about bullshot - I have confidently called it out because bullshot it is.

If the 'Transactivists' - on here, or anywhere else - wish to continue to devalue their cause by continuing to perpetuate all this 'labelling' nonsense, then they are free to do so, but WHY must heterosexual women (AND Men for that matter) have to be FORCED by these activists to accept any B.S. labels?

I am a 'Man' and my wife is a 'Woman'. We were born this way and are both perfectly happy to address ourselves as simply 'Man' and 'Woman' and we do not suddenly need any prefix like 'cis' to identify our sex, so 'Transactivists' can shove that little descriptor where the 'sun don't shine'.

Transactivists are the ones demanding evermore labels which further DEFINE themselves - ie; further define the DIFFERENCES they have not only from the rest of us, but also from each other- and that exposes all this B.S. for what it is, and 'what it is' has nothing to do with wanting to be equal and wanting to be treated equally, because it is CLEARLY all to do with wanting to STAND OUT, wanting to be MORE than equal, wanting to be 'SPECIAL'.

Let me say here that Transactivists are in a teeny-weeny MINORITY among the LGBT Community - as are most 'Activists' in the world at large - but because the vast majority are moderate, passive and silent, and the 'Transactivists' are pro-active, aggressive and vociferous, it is the Transactivists who have the floor.

Yet - to a man (and woman) EVERY member of the 'Gay' Community who I speak to (scene and non-Scene) not only do NOT support the 'Transactivists' or their agenda but believe that it is RETROGRESSIVE, not progressive, and is actually harming the LGBT cause.

And yes, call me Homophobe or whatever else is in your predictable 'Stock Response to Disagreement Arsenal' but I will tell you again:

Whatever progress HAS been made over the past 50 years in gaining Equality for the LGBT Community - I have been a part of.

I was a full member of 'The Campaign for Homosexual Equality' and campaigned for Gay Rights when the word 'Homophobic' was not in usage, and I PHYSICALLY fought alongside Gays and Lesbians AGAINST 'Gay Bashers' in several city centres from Manchester to London.

So carry on, you will not close me down - unlike poor Alison Moyet.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I've never liked the term cis, when it comes to trans issues I like to keep things simple. Has the trans person transisitioned yet? If so then I consider them their chosen gender, if not then they are still their birth gender. You can't just decide one day that you are the opposite sex and that everyone has to treat you as such regardless of the state of your transition. I call people what they want to be called but you can't try to make out it's a hate crime if people don't use the right pronouns or disagree. It's underselling what a hate crime is and makes a mockery of all who have been victims of it.

Blurring the lines just lead to messy situations like this one and I think a lot of mtf trans people are letting the trans community down by going on the attack like this. I definitely think there's merit to the accusations of misogyny.

Yup, totally agree. Also, just to point out Marsh, i think it's women (and why its more so women) who have a problem with the word "cis" is because it seems to be used as a way to insult women in discussions about this subject, it's become associated with insulting women (not men which is why it's women who object to it) I understand why you're saying but it's a descriptor etc but lets be real here that isn't how it's being used 90% of the times I've ever read it or heard it. Infact I first heard the word in some insulting post

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It is not getting uppity, it is her choice and she shouldn't have to be abused for it ....cis is a new made up term, nobody has to accept it because some prat somewhere decided it would be best

I never said she should get abused.

But I also want to see her campaigning to have every unique identifier and descriptive word used to differentiate people stopped tol otherwise she's a big old hypocrite.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Snide remarks? well you are the expert

Ok Cherie.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Just how you interpret my post as 'whining' and 'moaning' I do not know because I have not feebly complained about bullshot - I have confidently called it out because bullshot it is.

If the 'Transactivists' - on here, or anywhere else - wish to continue to devalue their cause by continuing to perpetuate all this 'labelling' nonsense, then they are free to do so, but WHY must heterosexual women (AND Men for that matter) have to be FORCED by these activists to accept any B.S. labels?

I am a 'Man' and my wife is a 'Woman'. We were born this way and are both perfectly happy to address ourselves as simply 'Man' and 'Woman' and we do not suddenly need any prefix like 'cis' to identify our sex, so 'Transactivists' can shove that little descriptor where the 'sun don't shine'.

Transactivists are the ones demanding evermore labels which further DEFINE themselves - ie; further define the DIFFERENCES they have not only from the rest of us, but also from each other- and that exposes all this B.S. for what it is, and 'what it is' has nothing to do with wanting to be equal and wanting to be treated equally, because it is CLEARLY all to do with wanting to STAND OUT, wanting to be MORE than equal, wanting to be 'SPECIAL'.

Let me say here that Transactivists are in a teeny-weeny MINORITY among the LGBT Community - as are most 'Activists' in the world at large - but because the vast majority are moderate, passive and silent, and the 'Transactivists' are pro-active, aggressive and vociferous, it is the Transactivists who have the floor.

Yet - to a man (and woman) EVERY member of the 'Gay' Community who I speak to (scene and non-Scene) not only do NOT support the 'Transactivists' or their agenda but believe that it is RETROGRESSIVE, not progressive, and is actually harming the LGBT cause.

And yes, call me Homophobe or whatever else is in your predictable 'Stock Response to Disagreement Arsenal' but I will tell you again:

Whatever progress HAS been made over the past 50 years in gaining Equality for the LGBT Community - I have been a part of.

I was a full member of 'The Campaign for Homosexual Equality' and campaigned for Gay Rights when the word 'Homophobic' was not in usage, and I PHYSICALLY fought alongside Gays and Lesbians AGAINST 'Gay Bashers' in several city centres from Manchester to London.

So carry on, you will not close me down - unlike poor Alison Moyet.

I respond to this with the same words as my first post. Nothing has changed.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yes Kaz. Anything you've never heard of must simply be made up. That's how the world works.

Never heard of it till I came on here, you learn something everyday.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yup, totally agree. Also, just to point out Marsh, i think it's women (and why its more so women) who have a problem with the word "cis" is because it seems to be used as a way to insult women in discussions about this subject, it's become associated with insulting women (not men which is why it's women who object to it) I understand why you're saying but it's a descriptor etc but lets be real here that isn't how it's being used 90% of the times I've ever read it or heard it. Infact I first heard the word in some insulting post

That's fair enough for you to share that viewpoint from your perspective and experiences and is just as valid as anyone else's.

I won't be shut down however by the minority who come in here not to add anything of their own to the conversation but to rant about them blokes having an opinion.

[smudgie]

As a woman with a womb, I am quite happy to call someone transitioned a women.
We are all woman, just biologically different and that will never change.
No need for any labels. Far too much labelling of us all to start with.

My decorator is a lesbian, I no more call her my lesbian decorator than I would call someone straight my straight decorator...they are my chuffing decorator.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by smudgie

As a woman with a womb, I am quite happy to call someone transitioned a women.
We are all woman, just biologically different and that will never change.
No need for any labels. Far too much labelling of us all to start with.

My decorator is a lesbian, I no more call her my lesbian decorator than I would call someone straight my straight decorator...they are my chuffing decorator.

True. But if you were having a conversation about sexuality, it might be mentioned that she is a lesbian either by herself or someone talking about her.

That's the only difference Smudgie I feel.

Yes, there are activists who take it too far, just as there are others who take it too far as we have seen. But people are getting irate over words people use to describe.

Nobody's being rebranded or repackaged.

[Vicky.]

I actually watched this unfold in real time. There were the usual death threats, rape threats, insults on her appearance, insults about her son...etc. All because she dared to not go allong with some bull**** word than MRAs (sorry, transactivists..but same thing) made up to try and stick women back in their box. Same story every time. A woman says no, the abuse comes. Its shocking, but so prectable.

I find it very interesting how a group of people who cry on about not having the 'right' pronouns and such applied to them, refuse to describe others accurately and have proper meltdowns when someone says 'hold up, I amnot cis, I am not a walking stereotype'. Its because the only way they can be special is to assume everyne else is cis, when really..going on current labels, near ever person alive is 'non binary'. Oh, and men do not get abuse for refusing to be labelled cis. Mind, men rarely get labelled it in the first place...its always women. And yeah, its usually as an insult.