Notices

Serious Debates & News Debate and discussion about political, moral, philosophical, celebrity and news topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 31-12-2018, 03:17 PM   #51
Toy Soldier
Suing Discord
 
Toy Soldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: ➜
Posts: 21,516
Blog Entries: 1


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
I still don't agree with people 'fleeing' France though, or passing safe countries
How "safe" is it if you don't have access to adequate food or, in the middle of winter, shelter? And little to no prospect of that situation improving? Are people supposed to huddle in their tents and accept their fate because they're not being bombed or shot at? Would you accept it for you or your own family?

Obviously, no, we can't take in all of the world's poor and oppressed; it's not logistically possible, it would destroy our economy, and there have to be sensible policies in place. I think, in general, people understand that. But trying to pass the buck to the people who are living existences that you can't even imagine, as if they have some sort of moral responsibility to "stay where they are because it's safe", is a bit much. It's just disingenuous too because I think deep down everyone knows that in the same desperate situation the vast majority of people would do the exact same thing and try to "find something better".

Also, yes, often they HAVE been mislead to believe that the UK is a "land of milk and honey" and have unrealistic expectations of what life will be like for them here, but that's not their fault either! It's a myth that's spread deliberately by the people who are taking money (often, everything people have) to get them in. And of course as that idea spreads, more and more people decide to take matters into their own hands and make the crossing in small groups in boats that can't actually make the journey, and those people end up needing rescued. The idea that they "deserve everything they get" for daring to try to enter precious Britain is just abhorrent.
__________________
___________________________________
Pull on the new flesh like borrowed gloves
And burn your fingers once again
___________________________________



Toy Soldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2018, 03:50 PM   #52
Cherie
Cherie Bomb 2020
 
Cherie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 44,430
Blog Entries: 1

Favourites:
BB19: Sian
CBB22: Hardeep Singh Kohli


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier View Post
How "safe" is it if you don't have access to adequate food or, in the middle of winter, shelter? And little to no prospect of that situation improving? Are people supposed to huddle in their tents and accept their fate because they're not being bombed or shot at? Would you accept it for you or your own family?

Obviously, no, we can't take in all of the world's poor and oppressed; it's not logistically possible, it would destroy our economy, and there have to be sensible policies in place. I think, in general, people understand that. But trying to pass the buck to the people who are living existences that you can't even imagine, as if they have some sort of moral responsibility to "stay where they are because it's safe", is a bit much. It's just disingenuous too because I think deep down everyone knows that in the same desperate situation the vast majority of people would do the exact same thing and try to "find something better".

Also, yes, often they HAVE been mislead to believe that the UK is a "land of milk and honey" and have unrealistic expectations of what life will be like for them here, but that's not their fault either! It's a myth that's spread deliberately by the people who are taking money (often, everything people have) to get them in. And of course as that idea spreads, more and more people decide to take matters into their own hands and make the crossing in small groups in boats that can't actually make the journey, and those people end up needing rescued. The idea that they "deserve everything they get" for daring to try to enter precious Britain is just abhorrent.

I never said they deserve everything they get, my point is these are not refugees but economic migrants so calling them refugees is incorrect as often they do leave a safe countryto get here, obviously if they want to swap a tent in France or some other EU country for the UK then there must be better options here?

Your argument about they wanting a better life is solid, however if you turn that around and say people currently in the UK want a better quality of life by it not being over populated you call them racists so migrants are allowed to aim for better but people born in the UK must put up and shut up?
__________________
So practice what you preach!

Last edited by Cherie; 31-12-2018 at 03:51 PM.
Cherie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2018, 04:05 PM   #53
Toy Soldier
Suing Discord
 
Toy Soldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: ➜
Posts: 21,516
Blog Entries: 1


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
I never said they deserve everything they get, my point is these are not refugees but economic migrants so calling them refugees is incorrect as often they do leave a safe countryto get here, obviously if they want to swap a tent in France or some other EU country for the UK then there must be better options here?

Your argument about they wanting a better life is solid, however if you turn that around and say people currently in the UK want a better quality of life by it not being over populated you call them racists so migrants are allowed to aim for better but people born in the UK must put up and shut up?
I've repeatedly said (in multiple posts in this thread alone, including the one you're replying to) that logistically it's impossible for a country to take in unlimited refugees and that sensible policies are required . My problem is when people (not you, people like arr Micky) express that opinion by demonising / being hateful towards / wishing ill (or death) on those trying to get in. There's a difference between "Sorry, for the good of our own citizens, we have to have limits" and "BLAAARRR FECK OFF AND DROWN WHY U EVEN TRYING TO GET HERE SCUM!!". No?
__________________
___________________________________
Pull on the new flesh like borrowed gloves
And burn your fingers once again
___________________________________



Toy Soldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2018, 04:08 PM   #54
Cherie
Cherie Bomb 2020
 
Cherie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 44,430
Blog Entries: 1

Favourites:
BB19: Sian
CBB22: Hardeep Singh Kohli


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier View Post
I've repeatedly said (in multiple posts in this thread alone, including the one you're replying to) that logistically it's impossible for a country to take in unlimited refugees and that sensible policies are required . My problem is when people (not you, people like arr Micky) express that opinion by demonising / being hateful towards / wishing ill (or death) on those trying to get in. There's a difference between "Sorry, for the good of our own citizens, we have to have limits" and "BLAAARRR FECK OFF AND DROWN WHY U EVEN TRYING TO GET HERE SCUM!!". No?
Of course!
__________________
So practice what you preach!
Cherie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2018, 04:17 PM   #55
arista
Senior Member
 
arista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 103,259
Default

[A child was among 12 Iranian migrants
detained after their dinghy landed
in Kent on New Year's Eve.]

https://news.sky.com/story/sajid-jav...sings-11595381
arista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2018, 04:26 PM   #56
LeatherTrumpet
Stonk member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 67,191


Default

just round them up and get rid, we dont want illegal anyone. we provide the means for legal migration. end of.
LeatherTrumpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2018, 04:51 PM   #57
parmnion
What!
 
parmnion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ESSEX via scotland
Posts: 28,984

Favourites:
BB18: Deborah
CBB18: Heavy D
BB17: Hughie
BB4: Cameron


Default

Thank you tibb, this is my best xmas present this year.
parmnion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2018, 05:05 PM   #58
Twosugars
Stiff Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: London
Posts: 9,392
Default

I wonder tho why Iranians...?
Iran is not lawless or in a state of war. Economically it's not one of the struggling countries.
The only thing that comes to mind is lack of political freedom and hostility to homosexuality.
Hope we're told what these people claim.
Twosugars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2018, 07:34 PM   #59
parmnion
What!
 
parmnion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ESSEX via scotland
Posts: 28,984

Favourites:
BB18: Deborah
CBB18: Heavy D
BB17: Hughie
BB4: Cameron


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twosugars View Post
I wonder tho why Iranians...?
Iran is not lawless or in a state of war. Economically it's not one of the struggling countries.
The only thing that comes to mind is lack of political freedom and hostility to homosexuality.
Hope we're told what these people claim.
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many...an-as-refugees
parmnion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2018, 11:28 PM   #60
Toy Soldier
Suing Discord
 
Toy Soldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: ➜
Posts: 21,516
Blog Entries: 1


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twosugars View Post
I wonder tho why Iranians...?
Iran is not lawless or in a state of war. Economically it's not one of the struggling countries.
The only thing that comes to mind is lack of political freedom and hostility to homosexuality.
Hope we're told what these people claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by parmnion View Post
Yes this is why; Iran was very modern / prgressive for several years and then did a huge "backwards step" into religious government. As a result, there are a lot of "Westernised" people stuck there living with a culture they don't recognise as theirs or agree with in any way.
__________________
___________________________________
Pull on the new flesh like borrowed gloves
And burn your fingers once again
___________________________________



Toy Soldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 02:41 PM   #61
arista
Senior Member
 
arista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 103,259
Default

[Home Secretary Sajid Javid
questions whether cross-Channel migrants
are 'genuine' asylum seekers
On a visit to Dover, the home secretary
suggests those picked up by
the UK authorities could have
their asylum requests denied.]

https://news.sky.com/story/sajid-jav...ekers-11596891


He has a point.
arista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 02:54 PM   #62
Cherie
Cherie Bomb 2020
 
Cherie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 44,430
Blog Entries: 1

Favourites:
BB19: Sian
CBB22: Hardeep Singh Kohli


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arista View Post
[Home Secretary Sajid Javid
questions whether cross-Channel migrants
are 'genuine' asylum seekers
On a visit to Dover, the home secretary
suggests those picked up by
the UK authorities could have
their asylum requests denied.]

https://news.sky.com/story/sajid-jav...ekers-11596891


He has a point.
Lets be honest here most are economic migrants
__________________
So practice what you preach!
Cherie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 03:06 PM   #63
arista
Senior Member
 
arista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 103,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
Lets be honest here most are economic migrants

Yes as some know there
is illegal jobs they can
do.


Is costing the nation
is many ways.
Worse is housing shortage for everyone
then some Illegals get homes.
arista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 03:20 PM   #64
The Slim Reaper
Rule the place with jokes
 
The Slim Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: In MS Paint on your desktop
Posts: 4,769
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arista View Post
Yes as some know there
is illegal jobs they can
do.


Is costing the nation
is many ways.
Worse is housing shortage for everyone
then some Illegals get homes.
Have I missed your thread on the amount that the extreme wealthy and corporations avoiding taxes is costing the nation, in many ways?
__________________


Spoiler:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia View Post
I think he was one of the best members we ever had here. Funny, intelligent and frustrating and really very kind. I hope he comes back.
The Slim Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 03:41 PM   #65
Twosugars
Stiff Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: London
Posts: 9,392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper View Post
Have I missed your thread on the amount that the extreme wealthy and corporations avoiding taxes is costing the nation, in many ways?
good point, SR
Twosugars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 04:21 PM   #66
arista
Senior Member
 
arista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 103,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper View Post
Have I missed your thread on the amount that the extreme wealthy and corporations avoiding taxes is costing the nation, in many ways?

That has nothing to do with this
arista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 04:29 PM   #67
Twosugars
Stiff Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: London
Posts: 9,392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arista View Post
That has nothing to do with this
it has plenty to do with your argument how illegals make us poorer
when you're silent on a much bigger issue that makes us poorer, tax avoidance and evasion
if you just reported the facts of the matter then fine, but venturing into opinions betrays your right wing bias where the rich are never criticised only the poor and dispossessed.
Twosugars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 04:33 PM   #68
arista
Senior Member
 
arista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 103,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twosugars View Post
it has plenty to do with your argument how illegals make us poorer
when you're silent on a much bigger issue that makes us poorer, tax avoidance and evasion
if you just reported the facts of the matter then fine, but venturing into opinions betrays your right wing bias where the rich are never criticised only the poor and dispossessed.

Facts
Tax is paid under Current UK Tax Laws.

I do not Control who is in power
New Labour never did feck all to
update the tax laws, for example

Last edited by arista; 02-01-2019 at 04:33 PM.
arista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 04:52 PM   #69
The Slim Reaper
Rule the place with jokes
 
The Slim Reaper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: In MS Paint on your desktop
Posts: 4,769
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arista View Post
Facts
Tax is paid under Current UK Tax Laws.

I do not Control who is in power
New Labour never did feck all to
update the tax laws, for example
Pretty sure they at least upped the top tax bracket that Osbourne undid as soon as he got the power to do so.

A major part of the way you view these issues is in monetary terms, so why is it ok to say that these "illegals" are costing us money, but actual criminals never get a mention from you?

Why is it ok for people and corporations to ignore tax laws, and you only say "tax is paid under UK tax laws. I do not control who is in power" but when immigration is a law being ignored then you're all over it, hand wringing about the cost to the country, won't somebody think of the children...
__________________


Spoiler:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia View Post
I think he was one of the best members we ever had here. Funny, intelligent and frustrating and really very kind. I hope he comes back.

Last edited by The Slim Reaper; 02-01-2019 at 04:57 PM.
The Slim Reaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 05:02 PM   #70
arista
Senior Member
 
arista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 103,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper View Post
Pretty sure they at least upped the top tax bracket that Osbourne undid as soon as he got the power to do so.

A major part of the way you view these issues is in monetary terms, so why is it ok to say that these "illegals" are costing us money, but actual criminals never get a mention from you?

Why is it ok for people and corporations to ignore tax laws, and you only say "tax is paid under UK tax laws. I do not control who is in power" but when immigration is a law being ignored then you're all over it, hand wringing about the cost to the country, won't somebody think of the children...

The Criminal Gangs
are all over my posts.

Children get looked after.

I am not all over this, as you say
Its on Ever Fecking news and radio debate
Every Day.
arista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 05:33 PM   #71
Twosugars
Stiff Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: London
Posts: 9,392
Default

bc right wing controls the news agenda
why we don't hear every day about tax avoidance? about who should really pay for austerity and economic crisis?
and who wants open borders? it's big business bc they profit from it through cheap labour
we'll see who post-brexit government will listen to, people who voted for brexit or big business; so don't expect the immigration numbers to go down an awful lot
Twosugars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 05:40 PM   #72
Toy Soldier
Suing Discord
 
Toy Soldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: ➜
Posts: 21,516
Blog Entries: 1


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twosugars View Post
bc right wing controls the news agenda
why we don't hear every day about tax avoidance? about who should really pay for austerity and economic crisis?
and who wants open borders? it's big business bc they profit from it through cheap labour
we'll see who post-brexit government will listen to, people who voted for brexit or big business; so don't expect the immigration numbers to go down an awful lot
I find it deeply amusing that immigration numbers will stay the same (or go up) and the same people who voted for Brexit will be bawling about it being worse than ever, because an increased percentage of immigrants will be the "foreign looking" ones from outside the EU... Exactly the ones that Brexiteers are afraid of... And only white European migration (the sort they didn't mind in the first place) will decrease.
__________________
___________________________________
Pull on the new flesh like borrowed gloves
And burn your fingers once again
___________________________________




Last edited by Toy Soldier; 02-01-2019 at 05:40 PM.
Toy Soldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 05:46 PM   #73
arista
Senior Member
 
arista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 103,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twosugars View Post
bc right wing controls the news agenda
why we don't hear every day about tax avoidance? about who should really pay for austerity and economic crisis?
and who wants open borders? it's big business bc they profit from it through cheap labour
we'll see who post-brexit government will listen to, people who voted for brexit or big business; so don't expect the immigration numbers to go down an awful lot
Of Course
it's been that way for over 30 years or so.
This thread is about criminal gangs
sending illegals across the dangerous sea from France.
arista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 05:47 PM   #74
Twosugars
Stiff Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: London
Posts: 9,392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier View Post
I find it deeply amusing that immigration numbers will stay the same (or go up) and the same people who voted for Brexit will be bawling about it being worse than ever, because an increased percentage of immigrants will be the "foreign looking" ones from outside the EU... Exactly the ones that Brexiteers are afraid of... And only white European migration (the sort they didn't mind in the first place) will decrease.
exactly

little do they know what the real agenda of those behind brexit is
less "inconvenient" regulation from the EU like labour or environment protections
not to mention financial services and tax laws
Twosugars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 05:48 PM   #75
arista
Senior Member
 
arista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 103,259
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier View Post
I find it deeply amusing that immigration numbers will stay the same (or go up) and the same people who voted for Brexit will be bawling about it being worse than ever, because an increased percentage of immigrants will be the "foreign looking" ones from outside the EU... Exactly the ones that Brexiteers are afraid of... And only white European migration (the sort they didn't mind in the first place) will decrease.

TS not every Brexit voter
is on about immigration.
it is about being Sovereign, for many.
arista is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmark/share this topic

Tags
17, boat, boats, dover, entering, fishing, found, french, illegal, kent, lorry, migrants, uk, ‘stolen’

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:10 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
no new posts