[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Literally nothing to do with people's issue with this statue, but the fact that you think it IS the issue is why you're so keen to be on that side of this argument, I suspect.

Most people have no problem with statues or art that depict nudity of females, males, or both at once. Heck, it would even be a different discussion if she had made or commissioned a statue herself. However IMO it only takes a brief skim of what she actually wrote about to cast doubt on this artists' decision being appropriate to the subject.

What was your 'nurser and birther' comment about then? if you're not fixated solely on the tits and fanny of this composition. The meaning is lost because you refuse to see past them.
That's how I see your comments, that's how I see the whole argument surrounding this piece.
I see a lot don't agree and that's fine. I'm not projecting anything into anyone. Not saying anyone isn't feminist enough or anything like that.
I just feel that as a radical feminist she would have appreciated the symbolism in this perhaps? It's only my opinion you understand.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Sorry, can you explain what you mean by this? Are you saying I'm not a feminist because I think this Statue is not an appropriate way to commemorate Mary Wollstonecraft? (I may have misunderstood your point here.....I hope I did )

Maybe it was a bit blunt I meant basically my interpretation of her work would serve to free women from the worry that they had to temper anything to conform to an expected standard? Like the need to express feminism in a way that excludes a female form... the ultimate feminist idolatry.

I'm thinking this is coming from my pagan roots here, I'm passionate about the triple goddess and I see no harm, shame or embarrassment in the expression of femininity in feminism. That it can mean so many things and is for me a tool for empowerment not a symbol of subjugation.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Obviously that is what I said, yes.

You made reference to the genetalia. What else was I meant to take from your the ' male gaze' comment... that's a ridiculous phrase isn't it? all it is is is a romanticised way of saying if artwork representative of any person or subject has boobs don't blame us for ignoring that person/ subject and making that the sole focus. Nothing else is relevant.

'Male gazing' should be as outmoded as wolf whistling by now Imo.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Quite right Bots, and her life was about feminism, which (as we know) is mostly about boobies and vaginas and other associated lady paraphernalia.

...Dear me Oedipus, are we here to mansplain expressions of feminism? Oh goody!
Something to look forward to.

[Ammi]

...it’s a difficult one I think, I do completely see your thoughts and they do also make sense to me...I can’t quite get to that mindset with the statue, though...because visually, it’s focus is only a part of ‘every woman’...and that part that has been focused on is very much something that male/female has never been judged equally on in society...so to keep the focus there, as it were...feels far from empowerment and more ‘limiting’ of female...limiting also because the artist is claiming an ‘ideal or perfect form for female’....

...Maggi is an artist, I get that she wants people to give thought to her art...and you, Kizzy are someone who always gives great thought to things...but she’s also been given an opportunity to create something which is representative of all female/every woman...and not every woman will give that thought so ‘visual’ was always important as well in showing female achievements...and I don’t personally feel that this sculpture tributes ....

[Ammi]

...I completely believe in our inner goddesses also, Kizzy.....I think that’s it though and a great way for you to put it...with the statue...for me it doesn’t show any of those goddesses that we females are...it’s more of a ‘surface’ of how we’ve been judged and still can be...

...as you say, though...it’s art...it’s each of our interpretations...we just comparatively have so few female sculptures in comparison to male...so it would have been nice to have something that could have been more appealing to every woman as well...

[Kizzy]

Thank you Ammi I really appreciate that

I do see how on the surface it's problematic, for 2 very obvious reasons however if we never allow our selves to challenge people to see past those they never will ...
I don't see the form as perfect, however it is unmistakably female, in a very unapologetic way and I like that. I like the way it is emerging fully formed from an incomplete irregular but still recognisable mass. I'd like to say that's how she saw the future for women.
It may not be a physical representation of the woman herself but I see it as an abstract depiction of her hard work and resolution.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I completely believe in our inner goddesses also, Kizzy.....I think that’s it though and a great way for you to put it...with the statue...for me it doesn’t show any of those goddesses that we females are...it’s more of a ‘surface’ of how we’ve been judged and still can be...

...as you say, though...it’s art...it’s each of our interpretations...we just comparatively have so few female sculptures in comparison to male...so it would have been nice to have something that could have been more appealing to every woman as well...

It's hard to say if it is a maiden, mother or crone lol its a bit enigmatic in that respect however it does give me a sense of strength, stoicism, determination and resolve. All of which I attribute to this fine woman it represents.
At least it's been a talking point and a jumping off point for discussions on feminism in a way that some bonnet and petticoats in bronze would never have done.

[Niamh.]

Well, I guess if I were a famous author or something like that and someone was going to make a statue of me, I'd be really angry if they made me nude and I would think it disrespectful and not representing my achievements

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

...Dear me Oedipus, are we here to mansplain expressions of feminism? Oh goody!
Something to look forward to.

While you're obviously being sarcastic, it's hard to tell if you're genuinely taking the position you profess to be when using a ridiculous word like "mansplain" ...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What was your 'nurser and birther' comment about then?

The statue is made to be reminiscent of traditional fertility effigies and that conotation is impossible to miss. At the very least, it would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that the creator - a professional artist - missed that implication. It is deliberate. It may even have a message and a place in many artistic contexts. For this subject matter - if you've actually read anything she wrote on feminism - it is a complete gaff unless the intention was to be disrespectful of the person depicted and their writings.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'Male gazing' should be as outmoded as wolf whistling by now Imo.

Yes that's sort of the point.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

...Dear me Oedipus, are we here to mansplain expressions of feminism?

Well if you females aren't going to do it, someone has to .

An Oedipus reference doesn't fit this scenario at all by the way, neither in the literature context or as the psychological complex. bit ranty.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The statue is made to be reminiscent of traditional fertility effigies and that conotation is impossible to miss. At the very least, it would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that the creator - a professional artist - missed that implication. It is deliberate. It may even have a message and a place in many artistic contexts. For this subject matter - if you've actually read anything she wrote on feminism - it is a complete gaff unless the intention was to be disrespectful of the person depicted and their writings.



Yes that's sort of the point.





Well if you females aren't going to do it, someone has to .

An Oedipus reference doesn't fit this scenario at all by the way, neither in the literature context or as the psychological complex. bit ranty.

Have you compared this piece with any fertility idols? Had you you'd see they are nothing alike... nothing.
The Oedipus reference is apt if, as you have done here you see a naked female form and instantly think 'mama'! It says more about you and your thought processes than the artist.
Hmm ...ranty? As in your suggesting my reaction is that if a hysterical female?.. not helping yourself here much TS.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

While you're obviously being sarcastic, it's hard to tell if you're genuinely taking the position you profess to be when using a ridiculous word like "mansplain" ...

It's a private joke... but if the cap fits lol

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Have you compared this piece with any fertility idols? Had you you'd see they are nothing alike... nothing.
The Oedipus reference is apt if, as you have done here you see a naked female form and instantly think 'mama'! It says more about you and your thought processes than the artist.
Hmm ...ranty? As in your suggesting my reaction is that if a hysterical female?.. not helping yourself here much TS.

The choice to display a prominent historical female thinker who wrote extensively on modesty, and appreciating the female mind over the female form, as a naked statue that accentuates the genitals and breasts, has clear connotations with "woman as the female form", Earth Mother, a vehicle for reproduction. As I said before - even if it can be interpreted differently - you're not going to convince me that a professional artist didn't anticipate that interpretation and therefore it is a conscious choice. It would be EXACTLY the same if an artist chose to depict a philosopher who talked of the nature of men as a bare-chested bodybuilder with his knob out. It has implications, they are open to interpretation, but are nonetheless deliberate on the part of the artist because they know what they're doing. If the subject is the artist thrmself, or the subject is a knowing participant, that's one thing but in this instance it's botched self-indulgence from the artist.

Your oedipus comments are massively off piste but they're just your attempt at creepy ad-hominem so we'll leave that where it is.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The choice to display a prominent historical female thinker who wrote extensively on modesty, and appreciating the female mind over the female form, as a naked statue that accentuates the genitals and breasts, has clear connotations with "woman as the female form", Earth Mother, a vehicle for reproduction. As I said before - even if it can be interpreted differently - you're not going to convince me that a professional artist didn't anticipate that interpretation and therefore it is a conscious choice. It would be EXACTLY the same if an artist chose to depict a philosopher who talked of the nature of men as a bare-chested bodybuilder with his knob out. It has implications, they are open to interpretation, but are nonetheless deliberate on the part of the artist because they know what they're doing. If the subject is the artist thrmself, or the subject is a knowing participant, that's one thing but in this instance it's botched self-indulgence from the artist.

Your oedipus comments are massively off piste but they're just your attempt at creepy ad-hominem so we'll leave that where it is.

Touchy.... you poked a stick at my thought processes I was just returning the favour.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconv...l-woman-149888

As here her radical writing is expressed in much more dynamic terms than yours I'm inclined to agree with them, as well as reject your simplistic 'earth mother' interpretation.

[Niamh.]

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/statue...osHX8ic9KVyrM4

[arista]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/statue...osHX8ic9KVyrM4

Will they reach the High amount?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by arista

Will they reach the High amount?

Only time will tell Arista