[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

On what planet do cis. women’s rights impede that basic want/need of transitioning or vice-versa?

That was never my argument, that transwomen in general is an afront to women's rights. But the consequences, i.e. transwomen in women's spaces etc.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

That was never my argument, that transwomen in general is an afront to women's rights. But the consequences, i.e. transwomen in women's spaces etc.

Okay, the trans prison/bathroom thing can be problematic (especially the prisons part) but in many ways that’s just symptomatic of the wider problem in society that’s been here since 2018. A 5-year-old girl now can identify as a horse if she wants to and according to some non-existent rights has the “right” to be taken more-or-less seriously, so by that analogy you can see what the problem is when people who are still biologically cis. pop out of the woodworks from nowhere and insist on being the opposite gender. It’s a bit different in the case of people who are actually transitioned (or at least transitioning).

[joeysteele]

I thought it didn't go too too deep with me.
I was more easy going as a teen.
Now that's not the case really.

However my dislike for others is more fuelled by what they do or would have done to others.
So more a dislike of what they stand for more than a dislike personally of the person.

As to people I know, or know of, even casually personally, the only thing that would really ignite intense dislike for anyone in that scenario would be if they questioned my own integrity.
If that is done repeatedly, then those people were they family, friends or other acquaintances would be completely out from me.
I'd not forgive and so in that instance, I'd say my then intense dislike for anyone doing that would run as deep as was possible to do so.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I thought it didn't go too too deep with me.
I was more easy going as a teen.
Now that's not the case really.

However my dislike for others is more fuelled by what they do or would have done to others.
So more a dislike of what they stand for more than a dislike personally of the person.

As to people I know, or know of, even casually personally, the only thing that would really ignite intense dislike for anyone in that scenario would be if they questioned my own integrity.
If that is done repeatedly, then those people were they family, friends or other acquaintances would be completely out from me.
I'd not forgive and so in that instance, I'd say my then intense dislike for anyone doing that would run as deep as was possible to do so.

I know what you mean, Joey. People who deliberately question your integrity, intelligence and capabilities and overall gaslight you time-and-time again deserve a special kind of hate. You don’t always know who you’re talking to in life so you might mistakenly undermine someone and/or have that happen to you but there’s a difference between that (as patronising and insulting as it can feel) and doing it over and over again just for the sake of having someone to gossip about or add to a smear-campaign, kicking someone who’s often already down and making a complete mockery of them. That’s when it inherently verges on unforgivable.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

Don’t have time for hatred. If someone pisses me off to the point that I ‘hate’ them I don’t bother with them. No point wasting time on them.

I’ve come to feel that way about one particular flatmate who lived in my then-flat late in 2020. He was awful in many ways but at the end of the day we hardly interacted with each-other in any meaningful capacity and he was already living there rent-free so as time went on I figured that there was no point letting him live in my head free of charge as well, not that I didn’t hate on him low-key for a good-few months. When the time to de-toxify my social media came I just blocked him and his friend who was very-much in close proximity to him (he was okay-ish in his own right but having such close proximity to poison and one or two other things made me decide to block the two of them on everything). It’s a bit different when it comes to people you had a good-few long conversations/interactions with and where there’s at least a little bit of mutual interpersonal knowledge on either side but there’s no point harbouring any more than a passive grudge against people who are more-or-less complete strangers.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Redway

Okay, the trans prison/bathroom thing can be problematic (especially the prisons part) but in many ways that’s just symptomatic of the wider problem in society that’s been here since 2018. A 5-year-old girl now can identify as a horse if she wants to and according to some non-existent rights has the “right” to be taken more-or-less seriously, so by that analogy you can see what the problem is when people who are still biologically cis. pop out of the woodworks from nowhere and insist on being the opposite gender. It’s a bit different in the case of people who are actually transitioned (or at least transitioning).

Ditto for sports (going back to this whole shebang). I’m sure Ollie’s got loads to say about this but I don’t see anyone reasonably suggesting that trans women should be allowed to play rugby alongside cis women. Athletics is neither here nor there because it’s not a sport that’s particularly gendered at all. You can either run professionally fast and jump through hoops or you can’t.

[Livia]

I have a lot of time and respect for you Red, but I object really strongly, to bring referred to as a cis woman. I am a woman.... Those who were born men are trans women. I object to becoming a sub-set of the trans ideology.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Livia

I have a lot of time and respect for you Red, but I object really strongly, to bring referred to as a cis woman. I am a woman.... Those who were born men are trans women. I object to becoming a sub-set of the trans ideology.

I do appreciate what you’re saying, Liv. The reason you might’ve seen “cis” coming from me at times up until now is because it’s a distinction that it seems more politically correct (in a niche scientific way) to make nowadays, aka between “cis” and “transitioned”, for both genders. It’s probably a term to drop but just to be clear I wasn’t lumping men and women together with trans-men and trans-women.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

I do appreciate what you’re saying, Liv. The reason you might’ve seen “cis” coming from me at times up until now is because it’s a distinction that it seems more politically correct (in a niche scientific way) to make nowadays, aka between “cis” and “transitioned”, for both genders. It’s probably a term to drop but just to be clear I wasn’t lumping men and women together with trans-men and trans-women.

Using the word cis is aligning yourself with and acknowledging the validity of the ideology. It's like a lifelong athiest calling themself Kaffir or a heretic or something.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Using the word cis is aligning yourself with and acknowledging the validity of the ideology. It's like a lifelong athiest calling themself Kaffir or a heretic or something.

One thing you’d do well to bear in mind, Ollie, is that not everyone’s riled and passionate about these things on the same level. I understand what Livia was saying but there’s not much need for you to expand on it to the point of likening me to a pseudo-blasphemous supposed fanatical atheist.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

One thing you’d do well to bear in mind, Ollie, is that not everyone’s riled and passionate about these things on the same level. I understand what Livia was saying but there’s not much need for you to expand on it to the point of likening me to a pseudo-blasphemous supposed fanatical atheist.

What I meant was, by using terms like Kaffir to describe yourself if you're not, and never have been, muslim, you're still acting like the term has truth.

The word cis is simply not needed, as we know the difference between women and transwomen.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

What I meant was, by using terms like Kaffir to describe yourself if you're not, and never have been, muslim, you're still acting like the term has truth.

The word cis is simply not needed, as we know the difference between women and transwomen.

And like I said, Livia’s comment made sense but you’re taking it way too far with your analogies. It’s not even about the cis stuff between the two of us. Where did kaffir come from?

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

Where did kaffir come from?

I just chose another ideology that uses certain terms for people, where those terms only apply from the perspective of the ideology.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I just chose another ideology that uses certain terms for people, where those terms only apply from the perspective of the ideology.

Oh, Ollie. Inasmuch as I can be with you on your ‘ideologies’ up to a point, you take the whole trans thing way too far sometimes. And you can’t even see it.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

Oh, Ollie. Inasmuch as I can be with you on your ‘ideologies’ up to a point, you take the whole trans thing way too far sometimes. And you can’t even see it.

I was largely exaggerating to make sure the point was as clear as possible - using the word "cis" is playing along with a set of ideas. By using that word, you're saying it's okay to treat "woman" like a category instead of a description.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I was largely exaggerating to make sure the point was as clear as possible - using the word "cis" is playing along with a set of ideas. By using that word, you're saying it's okay to treat "woman" like a category instead of a description.

Yeah but going off with all the extreme analogies when the point was already crystal-clear just makes you look bad, man. It really does. I know you’ve got an axe to grind with the trans community (and I’m not disputing that it’s your prerogative) but like I said you just take it too far sometimes.

[Vanessa]

I don't really hate anyone. I tend to avoid the people I don't like.
But there's no one I dislike more than ignorants who comment on people's weight. For me they're the lowest of the low. I would never do that to anyone, no matter they size.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

I don't really hate anyone. I tend to avoid the people I don't like.
But there's no one I dislike more than ignorants who comment on people's weight. For me they're the lowest of the low. I would never do that to anyone, no matter they size.

“You’ve put on weight, you know” is something people definitely need to stop doing. It doesn’t always come from a bad place at all but it’s annoying and rude to comment on stuff like that without knowing the circumstances. It could be a side-effect of medication that they already feel self-conscious enough about. Your body’s your body and yours alone, no-one else’s.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Redway

No, we ain’t hurting nobody. Just drawing the line when enough’s enough.

Although sometimes the lines can be blurred between you shutting the door on toxic people after one incident too many and it seeming like you just want to keep punishing them, and sometimes the latter’s what you actually want to do and probably would if you had less chill. Life always goes on and you just attend to the gazillion-and-one more important things you have going on in your life but there are some things/wounds you never really get over. Especially when you see the people you hate having fun and having a good life you feel like they don’t deserve.