Republic Of Scotland : Thurs Sept 18th 2014

[andybigbro]

still voting no.

#bettertogether

[arista]

still voting no.

#bettertogether


Thats OK Andy
but is still good so many what Freedom
there is also many floating voters

[joeysteele]

still voting no.

#bettertogether

Good to hear that, the family I have in Scotland too are all voting no,I just hope they go out and vote in September.

[Josy]

still voting no.

#bettertogether

Same

[the truth]

People are pretty much people wherever you go. No one's all good, or all bad. Like I keep saying to you.

Good for you thats your generalised pc opinion, I disagree. I think different countries, different cultures, different beliefs, different everything create different people. in my travels I have found scotland to be a wholly frendlier place than england

[CaudleHalbard]

Now that Mr Juncker of the EU has made it clear there will be no new member countries for at least 5 years, it suggests Scotland could be outside the EU for quite a while.

That could have an affect on the voting outcome, as EU membership is pretty crucial to Scotland.

[lostalex]

Now that Mr Juncker of the EU has made it clear there will be no new member countries for at least 5 years, it suggests Scotland could be outside the EU for quite a while.

That could have an affect on the voting outcome, as EU membership is pretty crucial to Scotland.

well if the UK votes to leave the EU, maybe Scotland could take their place...

[CaudleHalbard]

well if the UK votes to leave the Eu, maybe Scotland could take their place...
Indeed. Lol! :D

[Livia]

well if the UK votes to leave the EU, maybe Scotland could take their place...

Spain would never let that happen because then they would have to recognise Catalan's claim.

[lostalex]

Spain would never let that happen because then they would have to recognise Catalan's claim.

A new federal Scotland would have many friends in the US, and if the UK did leave the EU(which won't ever happen but we are talking hypothetically) the US would do everything in it's power to make sure that Scotland replaced the Uk in the EU. The US has more power in the EU than you think. actually more power than Spain. The US would make sure that we still have powerful friends in the EU, no matter what. (preferably english speaking ones)

[CaudleHalbard]

The US has more power in the EU than you think

Oh that's for sure. They are dying for the likes of Ukraine to join.


It is all part of the wider globalisation agenda.

[Livia]

A new federal Scotland would have many friends in the US, and if the UK did leave the EU(which won't ever happen but we are talking hypothetically) the US would do everything in it's power to make sure that Scotland replaced the Uk in the EU. The US has more power in the EU than you think. actually more power than Spain. The US would make sure that we still have powerful friends in the EU, no matter what. (preferably english speaking ones)

I work in politics Alex, I work for the government now and I've worked with MEPs in the past. I know exactly how much sway the US has in Europe. And since the US was found to be bugging - amongst other people - Angela Merkel's phone for years, let me tell you... your sway used to be small, now it's miniscule. The US would not be able to veto the vote of a state like Spain. It'd be like thinking that Spain could veto the vote of California in a national US vote.

[the truth]

of all the people youd want to upset, merkel was bottom of the list. I can only expect thats done huge damage to US/ EU relations

[lostalex]

I work in politics Alex, I work for the government now and I've worked with MEPs in the past. I know exactly how much sway the US has in Europe. And since the US was found to be bugging - amongst other people - Angela Merkel's phone for years, let me tell you... your sway used to be small, now it's miniscule. The US would not be able to veto the vote of a state like Spain. It'd be like thinking that Spain could veto the vote of California in a national US vote.

If you actually worked in politics, you'd know that spain is seen as a dog in the EU, as a problem. Their economy and their nation as a whole is in the can. They are seen as the FLORIDA of Europe. A place with some valuable property, where the important people buy land, but have no respect for the place where they buy that land from. all of the southern european countries are seen as dogs. The most important countries in the EU are the UK, France, Germany, and the USA, in that order. yes, USA is in the top 4 even though it's not even part of the EU.

[lostalex]

of all the people youd want to upset, merkel was bottom of the list. I can only expect thats done huge damage to US/ EU relations

lol, Merkel was so upset and angered by the revelations about US spying, remind me again what sanctions she's put on the US? or what any ****ing country has done since the Snowden revelations?? oh yea, absolutely NOTHING. :joker:

No country has retaliated against the US in any meaningful way because of the Snowden revelations. Because they already knew, and they don't give a ****.

[the truth]

lol, Merkel was so upset and angered by the revelations about US spying, remind me again what sanctions she's put on the US? or what any ****ing country has done since the Snowden revelations?? oh yea, absolutely NOTHING. :joker:

what did u expect? the hindenberg? political machinations are covert and unseen....merkel was seething and rightly so....it was the start of mass expose of the US secret services underhand practices. you honestly dont think there will now be ever growing trust issues which will have innumerable consequences

[lostalex]

what did u expect? the hindenberg? political machinations are covert and unseen....merkel was seething and rightly so....it was the start of mass expose of the US secret services underhand practices. you honestly dont think there will now be ever growing trust issues which will have innumerable consequences

i know for sure there won't be. because if the US actually pulled out of NATO and actually let Europe be responsible for it's own security, Europe would **** itself, and never agree on anything, imagine Europe being responsible for it's own security? lol i can't. the french, the britsh, the germans all trying to figure out who paid for what equipment, and who would be in charge? LOL what a cluster**** that would be.

Europe needs America more than America needs Europe. There's no doubt about that.

[Livia]

If you actually worked in politics, you'd know that spain is seen as a dog in the EU, as a problem. Their economy and their nation as a whole is in the can. They are seen as the FLORIDA of Europe. A place with some valuable property, where the important people buy land, but have no respect for the place where they buy that land from. all of the southern european countries are seen as dogs. The most important countries in the EU are the UK, France, Germany, and the USA, in that order. yes, USA is in the top 4 even though it's not even part of the EU.

I do actually work in politics. You're not new here, you knew that. Your perceptions of how European states think of each other has obviously been gained from a combination of the Internet and the American press because it's parsecs off the truth.

I'd be interested to hear what Germany's comments would be regarding the USA being "in Europe", especially after the US was caught out shamefully bugging a European leader and ally. You've burned your bridges rather there, a lot of leniency was withdrawn, I suspect never to return.

Europeans vote in the European elections to elect Members of the European Parliament. Unless I've been misinformed, the USA doesn't get a vote, so you don't get a say.

More interesting still is that you would think you're a part of Europe when so few Americans have a passport and so many couldn't even point to Germany on a map. That's fine... most Europeans couldn't point to Nebraska on a map. But then, we don't imagine we're part of the USA.

[Livia]

i know for sure there won't be. because if the US actually pulled out of NATO and actually let Europe be responsible for it's own security, Europe would **** itself, and never agree on anything, imagine Europe being responsible for it's own security? lol i can't. the french, the britsh, the germans all trying to figure out who paid for what equipment, and who would be in charge? LOL what a cluster**** that would be.

Europe needs America more than America needs Europe. There's no doubt about that.

Alex, the USA government is a mess. You have massive unemployment, racial disharmony, poverty, a shaky economy, massive social divides... every problem Europe faces, the USA also faces. I suggest you get all bent out of shape about your own government before getting all bent out of shape about how big a deal the USA might be in Europe.

[lostalex]

Alex, the USA government is a mess. You have massive unemployment, racial disharmony, poverty, a shaky economy, massive social divides... every problem Europe faces, the USA also faces. I suggest you get all bent out of shape about your own government before getting all bent out of shape about how big a deal the USA might be in Europe.

interesting points about US domestic politics Livia, but i don't remember the USA ever asking the EU to help with North American politics... what does that tell you? The Eu still asks the US to get involved in their matters...on a consistent basis. When is Europe gonna stop playing these pathetic games, knowing they depend on the US but pretend to hate America?

When's the last time any European country had any significant influence in The Americas politically? Yet the US is still super important in almost every European issue? So who relies on who?
America is still ****ing important in Europe, but Europe is irrelevant in the Americas.

don't get it twisted babe.

[Livia]

interesting points about US domestic politics Livia, but i don't remember the USA ever asking the EU to help with North American politics... what does that tell you? The Eu still asks the US to get involved in their matters...on a consistent basis. When is Europe gonna stop playing these pathetic games, knowing they depend on the US but pretend to hate America?

When's the last time any European country had any significant influence in The Americas politically? Yet the US is still super important in almost every European issue? So who relies on who?
America is still ****ing important in Europe, but Europe is irrelevant in the Americas.

don't get it twisted babe.


Why is it so important to you to insist Europe is insignificant in the USA but the USA is a really big deal in Europe? It isn't. When did the EU ask the USA to get involved with European politics? And I have to bang on about this... since the USA was caughty spying on its allies, the USA has lost a massive amount of trust and respect in Europe.

Oh, and a little edit here: No one hates America. Not agreeing that the USA runs the world is not the same as hating them. I love the States, I've lived and worked there, I've travelled there many times. No hate here. Quite the reverse, in fact.

[lostalex]

Why is it so important to you to insist Europe is insignificant in the USA but the USA is a really big deal in Europe? It isn't. When did the EU ask the USA to get involved with European politics? And I have to bang on about this... since the USA was caughty spying on its allies, the USA has lost a massive amount of trust and respect in Europe.

Oh, and a little edit here: No one hates America. Not agreeing that the USA runs the world is not the same as hating them. I love the States, I've lived and worked there, I've travelled there many times. No hate here. Quite the reverse, in fact.

i find it hard to believe you actually have a career in politics, cause you sound very naive on these issues. sounds more like you have a job in journalism, not politics. no offense babe.

amnd if you think the US isn't a big deal in Europe, check out how much press coverage the US gets in all European countries, then compare how much each of those individual counties gets press coverage in the US. It's clear who is more important to whom.

Then compare the mentions of the US in every european parliament compared to how many mentions each european country is mentioned in the Us congress. I'm not making this **** up babe. if you need quantitative facts, look it up, do the study, i think you know i'm right.

i'm not just making **** up dude.

[Tip]

I don't really understand what the possible implications of Scotland being independent would be.

It seemed that there were so many Scottish MPs in Parliament at one time, that the Scots were running the UK anyway :D

I have no problem with the concept of Scotland being an independent country but what the reality of the economics and politics would be, I can't really grasp.

[lostalex]

scotland is never going to be an independent country, don't worry. it ain't gonna happen, even if it was gonna happen, it still wouldn't happen. period.

[Livia]

i find it hard to believe you actually have a career in politics, cause you sound very naive on these issues. sounds more like you have a job in journalism, not politics. no offense babe.

amnd if you think the US isn't a big deal in Europe, check out how much press coverage the US gets in all European countries, then compare how much each of those individual counties gets press coverage in the US. It's clear who is more important to whom.

Then compare the mentions of the US in every european parliament compared to how many mentions each european country is mentioned in the Us congress. I'm not making this **** up babe. if you need quantitative facts, look it up, do the study, i think you know i'm right.

i'm not just making **** up dude.


Ah... so you've judged my whole career on a few posts on a forum? You must be astonishingly gifted, Alex. Tell me, what is it you do for a career again? I'm guessing whatever it is, it has nothing to do with politics as you're so uninformed, and nothing to do with diplomacy, as you've just insulted my career and my qualifications by erroneously calling me naive when the boot is quite firmly on the other foot. No offence, babe.

I adore you Alex, but you make yourself look a little silly when you persist with "Team America" nonsense. And yeah, you are pretty much making this **** up, dude.

[lostalex]

Ah... so you've judged my whole career on a few posts on a forum? You must be astonishingly gifted, Alex. Tell me, what is it you do for a career again? I'm guessing whatever it is, it has nothing to do with politics as you're so uninformed, and nothing to do with diplomacy, as you've just insulted my career and my qualifications by erroneously calling me naive when the boot is quite firmly on the other foot. No offence, babe.

I adore you Alex, but you make yourself look a little silly when you persist with "Team America" nonsense. And yeah, you are pretty much making this **** up, dude.

:cheer2: love it.

so we are both calling each other naive and ill informed, but we still both claim to have huge respect for each other!

if that's not diplomacy i don't know what is :flowers:

[joeysteele]

Personally.I hope Scotland stays united with England,Wales and Northern Ireland Also I really won't consider the UK still as being the UK if Scotland is not part of it.

Being of Scottish ancestry on my Dad's side,it is a land I really love. However politically it has been the testing ground for some of the most abhorrent policies by Govt's that Scotland would 'never' have elected.
I totally understand the frustration and anger Scots may have as to having govt after govt inflicted on it by the far South of England only.

The Scots are a very friendly Nation,the deserve a whole lot better than they have had rammed down their throats by uncaring Conservative govts and also from Labour govts that have for too long taken for granted the solid votes the Scots give them.

I applaud Alex Salmiond for his efforts both in governing Scotland and getting this referendum held although I fear the result.
I worry the result could be decided with a yes vote, not because the majority want independence but the 'no' voters may be less eager to vote whereas the 'yes' voters will I feel sure go out and vote come what may.

If Scotland does vote to remain united in a UK,while that for me would be a great thing, I really hope however that in that event govts of all colours will start to treat them with far more respect than they have for decades now.

I also believe, no matter what is said now,that ways will be found for Scotland to keep the pound as its currency, for the Queen to remain Queen of Scotland and that the EU will certainly find ways to fasttrack Scotland as a full EU member too.
No matter the threats and ugly tones stemming from Westminster as to that at present.

For me, I feel it will be the rest of the UK that would be weakened and downgraded internationally by Scotland voting for independence.
I can actually see the Scots getting a lot of assistance and goodwill from other Nations.

I still hope for a no vote however,Scotland does however,in my view,deserve a far better deal than it has at present in this UK set up.

[lostalex]

very well articulated Joey. probably the best post of this thread.

[the truth]

obviously europe needs america and vice versa in many ways and many interests are shared

whilst europe is financially in a heck of a mess....However id say USA interferes more in europe than we do in the US.....I really dont think american politics is relevant in european forums.....I cant recall the UK parliament ever discussing america and I watch them debate at pmqs every week. the yanks want a european leader so its a one stop shop for them. but that leader will never have much power in reality.

america will remain more powerful and richer as it has a far better constitution. but the poorer in europe get treated far better on average.

europe has become a bit of a basket case. waste, burocracy 585 page constitution, endless petty laws, no accounts, no accountability, the euro is a flop, umpteen nations bankrupt etc in many its a busted flush. It really needs to target and properly regulate corporate corruption in the markets, but the tories in the UK fought against that

so our system is now one where the elite 10% in effect live in tax havens even within the UK and the poorer 90% pretty much pay all the taxes. VAT at a mosntrous 20% is of course the biggest crippler for all poor/working class people. it steals money on nearly all goods and fuel off the poor, it keeps small businesses from expanding and hiring and only recoups real money for big businesses. so called free marketeer lolololol maggie thatcher milk snatcher , took vat from 7.5 to 17.5% which detsroyed the small businesses and ruined the economy. she was an elitist and didnt give a damn about the economy or everyday working people. she was another rich mans puppet.

I digress.

europe is a mess. Thank goodness we have germany

[the truth]

Personally.I hope Scotland stays united with England,Wales and Northern Ireland Also I really won't consider the UK still as being the UK if Scotland is not part of it.

Being of Scottish ancestry on my Dad's side,it is a land I really love. However politically it has been the testing ground for some of the most abhorrent policies by Govt's that Scotland would 'never' have elected.
I totally understand the frustration and anger Scots may have as to having govt after govt inflicted on it by the far South of England only.

The Scots are a very friendly Nation,the deserve a whole lot better than they have had rammed down their throats by uncaring Conservative govts and also from Labour govts that have for too long taken for granted the solid votes the Scots give them.

I applaud Alex Salmiond for his efforts both in governing Scotland and getting this referendum held although I fear the result.
I worry the result could be decided with a yes vote, not because the majority want independence but the 'no' voters may be less eager to vote whereas the 'yes' voters will I feel sure go out and vote come what may.

If Scotland does vote to remain united in a UK,while that for me would be a great thing, I really hope however that in that event govts of all colours will start to treat them with far more respect than they have for decades now.

I also believe, no matter what is said now,that ways will be found for Scotland to keep the pound as its currency, for the Queen to remain Queen of Scotland and that the EU will certainly find ways to fasttrack Scotland as a full EU member too.
No matter the threats and ugly tones stemming from Westminster as to that at present.

For me, I feel it will be the rest of the UK that would be weakened and downgraded internationally by Scotland voting for independence.
I can actually see the Scots getting a lot of assistance and goodwill from other Nations.

I still hope for a no vote however,Scotland does however,in my view,deserve a far better deal than it has at present in this UK set up.

great post.

scotland wales and northern ireland dont get nearly enough funding from the barnet formula. which is partly why their services and the nhs is falling apart. the method needs to urgently be reviewed , its costing these countries and northern england billions.

the scots are massively loved and respected, moreso than us in england lets face it. you can go round the globe and no one has a bad word to say about the scots. their country is spectacular, its mostly clean and hospitable. most things are affordable. culturally its fabulous. the heritage, the history, the architecture, the world wide brands from tartan to scotch to golf, ancient laws, to bagpipes to cashmere and tea cakes.....theyre education system is the best, their history of writers, poets , legendary inventors, song writers, their stunning architecture still wonderfully maintained, their wonderful lochs, their magnificent mountains, our greatest ever comedian, the best salmon fishing in the world too....scots immigrants along with the welsh immigrants and some english too, wrote the american declaration of independence and the constitution...i believe it was partly from the declaration of arbroath if memory serves me correct

I could go on, whats not to love

Ive done business with many people and sorry to generalize livia but id rather do busienss with the scots than almost anyone else. when the deal is done, the deal is done. fabulous. europe and us in the Uk would gladly do business with them.

[Livia]

:cheer2: love it.

so we are both calling each other naive and ill informed, but we still both claim to have huge respect for each other!

if that's not diplomacy i don't know what is :flowers:

Haha... I suppose that's true. And I do have huge respect for you, even when you're wrong x

[Nedusa]

interesting points about US domestic politics Livia, but i don't remember the USA ever asking the EU to help with North American politics... what does that tell you? The Eu still asks the US to get involved in their matters...on a consistent basis. When is Europe gonna stop playing these pathetic games, knowing they depend on the US but pretend to hate America?

When's the last time any European country had any significant influence in The Americas politically? Yet the US is still super important in almost every European issue? So who relies on who?
America is still ****ing important in Europe, but Europe is irrelevant in the Americas.

don't get it twisted babe.


Not sure Europe is irrelevant to the US, the US is desparately hoping Europe will apply more serious sanctions to Russia because it cannot harm Russia with its own unilateral sanctions.

The US needs Europe to apply serious sanctions to Russia as Europe is a major trading partner and has the power to hurt Russia, the US in this situation is irrelevant to Russia and Russia knows this.

Putin is applying all his diplomacy to Germany and the UK he knows these countries hold the key to whether further sanctions will be applied.

Personally I don't think the EU will upset Russia any further as they would suffer also.

And why should they suffer to help the US, the US created the very situation that has forced Russia to defend itself and protect its naval base in the Crimea .

To be honest Obama needs to get a grip and stop prodding the bear because eventually it will strike back and as another poster said , the US is drowning in debt and knows its only a matter of time before the US dollar loses its reserve currency status and when that happens well ... Massive recession in the US which will make the last one in 2008 look like a tea party.




.

[Northern Monkey]

If Scotland votes to go independant then let them i say.Really could'nt care less.There should be an option in that poll for 'Don't care either way' which i suspect is most people who live outside of Scotlands position.

[Kizzy]

Not at all look at Ireland and how they cope being divided, it would be a nightmare.. tolls, passports, sending and receiving products, accessing services.
I feel like the UK is a classic car being sold for parts :(

[the truth]

Not at all look at Ireland and how they cope being divided, it would be a nightmare.. tolls, passports, sending and receiving products, accessing services.
I feel like the UK is a classic car being sold for parts :(

you just described maggie thatchers long term economic policy in a nutshell

[hijaxers]

Well where's our vote ? Do we want Scotland to stay - typical the English have no voice at all. I think most English are sick of the Scottish whinging and would send em packing !

[lostalex]

Not sure Europe is irrelevant to the US, the US is desparately hoping Europe will apply more serious sanctions to Russia because it cannot harm Russia with its own unilateral sanctions.

The US needs Europe to apply serious sanctions to Russia as Europe is a major trading partner and has the power to hurt Russia, the US in this situation is irrelevant to Russia and Russia knows this.

Putin is applying all his diplomacy to Germany and the UK he knows these countries hold the key to whether further sanctions will be applied.

Personally I don't think the EU will upset Russia any further as they would suffer also.

And why should they suffer to help the US, the US created the very situation that has forced Russia to defend itself and protect its naval base in the Crimea .

To be honest Obama needs to get a grip and stop prodding the bear because eventually it will strike back and as another poster said , the US is drowning in debt and knows its only a matter of time before the US dollar loses its reserve currency status and when that happens well ... Massive recession in the US which will make the last one in 2008 look like a tea party.




.

Everything about this post seems to assume that the US benefits by Russia being hurt? How does it benefit the US to hurt Russia? the US is just doing what it's always done since ww2 ended, trying to protect a free Europe from Russia. i don't see why anyone would complain about that.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/8/2/326975/default/v2/guardian-jpg-1-329x437.jpg

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/02/games-will-put-scots-on-path-to-independence

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/8/2/1407001969320/Scottish-referendum-011.jpg

Aye.

[michael21]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/8/2/326975/default/v2/guardian-jpg-1-329x437.jpg

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/02/games-will-put-scots-on-path-to-independence

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/8/2/1407001969320/Scottish-referendum-011.jpg

Aye.

don't see how the games we effect how people vote most would of nade up there mind by now

[arista]

8PM tonight on STV1HD
Salman Vs Darling Live


I will watch via my SatHD box

Its also free to watch via online

[lostalex]

can we all stop pretending like scotland is going anywhere, scotland ain't going anywhere. ain't gonna happen.

the only thing LESS relevant than the commonwealth games, is the scotland referendum

[arista]

http://player.stv.tv/live/

Sign in to watch Live at 8PM online tonight
others its on STV1HD and STV1 8PM

[arista]

Live now

[the truth]

Well where's our vote ? Do we want Scotland to stay - typical the English have no voice at all. I think most English are sick of the Scottish whinging and would send em packing !

pathetic self pity, we english have the wealth and power and parliament here and the monarchy hich means all real wealth effectively belongs to them in london........as for us, what about the welsh and english having a say? youve been listening to too much london ccentric biased tabloid westminster self pity

ps we have assemblies in england too

[Crimson Dynamo]

im finishing off the grass (my ride on is better than livias ((honda))) and them im watching with a bloody mary or 2

[arista]

I am watching Live on STV1HD

[arista]

Salmond Won it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article6288298.ece/alternates/w620/pg-1-halmond-getty.jpg

[joeysteele]

Salmond Won it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article6288298.ece/alternates/w620/pg-1-halmond-getty.jpg

The polling is saying Alistair Darling won it but I agree with you, I think Alex Salmond was the best here.

[smudgie]

Oh please just hurry up and let it be over.
I can't stand Salmond or Sturgeon..and I don't mean the fishy kind.

Win or lose, keep them off my telly.

[the truth]

Everything about this post seems to assume that the US benefits by Russia being hurt? How does it benefit the US to hurt Russia? the US is just doing what it's always done since ww2 ended, trying to protect a free Europe from Russia. i don't see why anyone would complain about that.

the yanks want to supply the gas, at leats john mccain and a get tea parters do

[the truth]

Well where's our vote ? Do we want Scotland to stay - typical the English have no voice at all. I think most English are sick of the Scottish whinging and would send em packing !

sick of your whinging more like

[JoshBB]

Well where's our vote ? Do we want Scotland to stay - typical the English have no voice at all. I think most English are sick of the Scottish whinging and would send em packing !

We don't need a vote? You're probably the same person that wouldn't want the EU to have any input on referendum and leave it all down to us.

[arista]

Tomorrow at 8:30PM
Live on BBC2 and SkyNews
Alex Salmon Vs A. Darling again

it goes on until 10PM

CBB is on at 9PM tomorrow

[Lee.]

I'm getting more and more excited.. :)

[Alf]

Are you in or out Lee? or would you prefer not to say?

[Lee.]

Are you in or out Lee? or would you prefer not to say?

I'm a huge huge YES.

[Ninastar]

I'm not too sure... Having been born in Scotland, I'd hate to see a huge drift between the two countries. Plus I personally don't see it going well if they do become independent

[Ninastar]

The 'proud to be scots, delighted to be united' posters made me smile a lot when I visited my grandad and Greg last week

[Alf]

Will there be border control if the vote is yes? need a passport to get in and out?

[Lee.]

Will there be border control if the vote is yes? need a passport to get in and out?

No there wouldn't be

[Lee.]

I'm not too sure... Having been born in Scotland, I'd hate to see a huge drift between the two countries. Plus I personally don't see it going well if they do become independent

I don't think there'd be a huge drift.. We'd still be neighbours and best friends, but we'd have our own government and the rest if the uk would have theirs.. It makes sense to me :)

[Ninastar]

I don't think there'd be a huge drift.. We'd still be neighbours and best friends, but we'd have our own government and the rest if the uk would have theirs.. It makes sense to me :)

Hmm true... I just feel it's a little risky. I don't know all that much about it though

[Lee.]

Hmm true... I just feel it's a little risky. I don't know all that much about it though

I'm 100% sure Scotland can go it alone.. And I'm feeling pretty sure we're going to go for it :amazed: I want home from hospital for the 18th so I can sit up all night and eat and drink and watch the results coming in. I think I'll probably die from excitement though :/

[Toy Soldier]

I'm 100% sure Scotland can go it alone.. And I'm feeling pretty sure we're going to go for it :amazed: I want home from hospital for the 18th so I can sit up all night and eat and drink and watch the results coming in. I think I'll probably die from excitement though :/

I wouldn't get too excited, it's still looking like roughly a 55/45 split in favour of "no", unfortunately.

It's mostly a shame because no voters are (in huge numbers) doing it to preserve the status quo and because it feels "safer". It is NOT safe. The UK is economically ****ed.

So I look at it this way: An independent Scotland could go either way. In 30 years time with a Yes vote, things in Scotland might be amazing... might be thriving. Or it might go badly and a lot of people will be screwed.

In 30 years time with a No vote, there's no question about it; in the UK, unless you're landed gentry, you will be in the gutter. The government is doing a good job of controlling the media and convincing the general public that the economy vs the cost of living isn't spiraling completely out of control but... it simply is. The UK will be a bankrupt country full of poor, miserable people. Eastern European countries will be looking back on how things are now and pissing themselves laughing that they ever wanted to live / work in the UK.

The effect will be WORSE for Scotland because, as always, things get gradually ****tier the further you go from London, because the corrupt and useless Westminster governments treat it like a self-contained and all important City State, and any money that IS left will be siphoned south.


So... yeah... this is what will happen if we vote "no". In the event of a "Yes" vote I personally think there will be a few tough years but once firm footing is found we would be in a much better position to survive the inevitable end of Western economic supremacy. Scotland has a small populaion and a lot to offer no matter which superpower reigns supreme. The UK as a whole is a post-imperial nightmare that is FAR too big for its' boots. And this is what delusioned, media-affected Scottish voters feel is "safe". :(

[Kizzy]

Seeing how the gulf between haves and have-nots across Britain is widening society does seem to be going in a counterclockwise direction, the answer is not returning to the slums and being controlled by water cannon.
It's time we realised English parliament is corrupt, maybe Scotland should go for it?
One question... Lee can I come live in your shed?

[arista]

I'm getting more and more excited.. :)



Yes I hope Alex has
done some good revision

[arista]

I'm a huge huge YES.

You Are Most Wise

[Alf]

Surely the threat of putting up border control will be the ace card for the no vote, far more Scots come into England than the other way around.

I thought this would be one of Cameron's tactical moves.

[arista]

Surely the threat of putting up border control will be the ace card for the no vote, far more Scots come into England than the other way around.

I thought this would be one of Cameron's tactical moves.



No border problems
just Total Freedom for Scotland.

[arista]

On BBC2HD or SkyNewsHD

Now

[arista]

Alistair Darling
keeps saying the same old rubbish

[joeysteele]

For me Alex Salmond got this one.

[arista]

For me Alex Salmond got this one.


Yes Guardian /ICM poll gives Alex the win


on this one.


ref :SkyNewsHD Live

[MTVN]

Crap debate, neither said anything new and just repeated the same rubbish we've been hearing for months

[Angelika]

I'm on the fence......thank heavens I don't have to vote!
There hasn't been enough discussion on the important issues for me to make a decision.

I'm hoping for a good outcome all round and praying I don't need a visa to visit family.

[arista]

I'm on the fence......thank heavens I don't have to vote!
There hasn't been enough discussion on the important issues for me to make a decision.

I'm hoping for a good outcome all round and praying I don't need a visa to visit family.


No border problems will happen if they go solo

[Crimson Dynamo]

Crap debate, neither said anything new and just repeated the same rubbish we've been hearing for months

what new things would you have liked to hear?

[arista]

what new things would you have liked to hear?


The Death of Labour MP's in Scotland

[joeysteele]

Keeping this serious I have always said I hope the Scots vote no to independence and I do still believe more prefer to stay in the UK than leave.

However, I could well understand the Scots voting to go independent,it must be sick of voting for non Conservative Govts and getting thrown at it all the time, rotten policies from a Govt. that in the main is elected from only the far South of England.
The same issue as to Wales too.

What will decide this referendum and the thing I fear as to the vote itself is how will the 2 sides actually vote.
I have little doubt that just about all those who favour independence will, through rain,hail and snow ensure they cast their votes in the referendum.
What worries me is that those against independence may not get out there and cast their votes in the strength they likely really are.

The undecided too, have had a real mess as to information thrown at them by both sides and I doubt if most of the undecided will even bother to vote anyway now.
It will be an exciting but anxious day of voting.
It would not now surprise me if the yes vote just carries the day,it is really down to the no voters making sure they make their voice heard.

I say again, if the Scots vote no however, then Govts. no matter the party leading any Govt. need to really change their attitude to Scotland as a whole.
Finally I do commend Alex Salmond, he for me has looked the real statesman in all this and he has delivered a referendum as to independence too against all the odds.

He looks a far better bet for a Prime Minister of a Nation than the procrastinating,incompetent incumbent the UK has right now for sure.

[Toy Soldier]

I've just figured out where I've seen the Better Together campaign rhetoric before!!

fi8kYcl2Y38

...this could essentially BE Alistair Darling.

[lostalex]

from 3hat i'm reading this might be closer than i thought. but i still think most people don't want to upset the status quo. most people don't like change.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/9/6/334091/default/v2/st-front-1-329x437.jpg


Yes



http://news.sky.com/story/1331427/scottish-referendum-yes-campaign-takes-lead


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/06/scots-radical-new-deal-save-the-union

[Cherie]

This is going to be a close one

[Crimson Dynamo]

Freedom

[arista]

Freedom


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Flag_of_Scotland.svg/175px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png


http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/9/7/334109/default/v1/yes-campaign-1-626x352.jpg

[andybigbro]

NOOOOOOOO


vote no! #bettertogether

[Black Dagger]

No thanks!

The only good thing to come from it is the hope of CHVRCHES representing Scotland in Eurovision :idc:

[King Gizzard]

all it will do is scare more people into voting no, the people who didn't vote in these polls

[Lee.]

The tide is turning! I'm feeling fairly sure we're going to do it! :amazed:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Odious osbourne on A Marr this morning with the "more powers to Scotchland if we stay together" honey laden carrot

yawn

[Kizzy]

People voting yes only due to that terrible no campaign video with the stupid woman in say 'och aye' :hehe:

[Toy Soldier]

People voting yes only due to that terrible no campaign video with the stupid woman in say 'och aye' :hehe:

It SHOULD prompt people to vote yes! The thing is, people dismiss it as just a bad video, not well thought out, etc... But the truth is, her smug, patronising attitude in the video and the really obvious implication that voters are politically unengaged / clueless / just simple people with their simple little lives... is a PERFECT reflection of how Westminster politicians see all of us. Not women, not Scottish people, but every single member of the public who isn't "one of them".

I genuinely believe that being given the opportunity to get away from that and not grabbing it with both hands and dry humping it manically, would be a completely bonkers decision. Like Brand said in a recent video - the further away from one large government ruling over a huge number of people you get, the more chance each individual has of being heard. And that can only ever be a good thing for a "normal" citizen. And bad for the elite, of course.

[Kizzy]

But it is how we are... and we are very happy with the 1p of a pint of beer and the reduction in tax on bingo too.
They know us so well... ;)

[Toy Soldier]

But it is how we are... and we are very happy with the 1p of a pint of beer and the reduction in tax on bingo too.
They know us so well... ;)

Reduction on alcohol and bingo tax hand in hand with an increase in other gambling taxes... So they are both pro and anti gambling, but consider roulette machine addiction to be a bigger problem than alcoholism! Although in reality it's all bluster, and the truth is that it's a balancing act between squeezing as much profit as possible out of various vices whilst not making them too unattractive, to keep a nice chunk of the population distracted by them.

Except that whoever is advising them on these matters last left his Castle back in the 50's, because no one even goes to bingo any more! There's one bingo hall in this town and it's literally falling apart because no one ever goes. And those who do still go will mostly be dead within the next 5 years.

They need to keep up with the times and legalise (and tax!) proper vices like hookers and crack.

[Kizzy]

Reduction on alcohol and bingo tax hand in hand with an increase in other gambling taxes... So they are both pro and anti gambling, but consider roulette machine addiction to be a bigger problem than alcoholism! Although in reality it's all bluster, and the truth is that it's a balancing act between squeezing as much profit as possible out of various vices whilst not making them too unattractive, to keep a nice chunk of the population distracted by them.

Except that whoever is advising them on these matters last left his Castle back in the 50's, because no one even goes to bingo any more! There's one bingo hall in this town and it's literally falling apart because no one ever goes. And those who do still go will mostly be dead within the next 5 years.

They need to keep up with the times and legalise (and tax!) proper vices like hookers and crack.

There is online bingo and poker, that has people addicted Like you say it's to keep people dumbed down, distracted, poor and in debt.

[MTVN]

Thing is even if Yes win with somewhere between 51-55% (which is the most they can hope for really) I doubt that Scotland will become independent. In reality the referendum won't be absolutely binding and for them to leave the UK won't just be like the flick of a switch, it'd be such a radical change and require so many months of negotiations that it's likely that anything less than 60% would be considered not strong enough a mandate to make such a massive step

[joeysteele]

Thing is even if Yes win with somewhere between 51-55% (which is the most they can hope for really) I doubt that Scotland will become independent. In reality the referendum won't be absolutely binding and for them to leave the UK won't just be like the flick of a switch, it'd be such a radical change and require so many months of negotiations that it's likely that anything less than 60% would be considered not strong enough a mandate to make such a massive step

It is a binding referendum MTVN, that was another thing that I felt bad about the referendum being held, there could have been conditions such as to turnout or even a minimum result either way for this to be put to bed completely.

As it is it has been set up whereby any majority either way decides the future of Scotland and indeed the UK.

If there is a vote for instance of only 50.3% for independence and a vote of 49.7% against,that result will have to stand.
As it would stand vice versa too.
No way will the SNP allow any further discussion on the matter,a majority will be a majority and that is the way this referendum has been allowed to come into play.

It is expected there will be an 18 month transition to full independence after the resut if there is a yes vote.
That is it really.
Scotland votes yes, it will have to be given independence,no further negotiations a to that whatsoever.

That is the way Alex Salmond wanted it and he got it,for me he has been able to run rings round this PM we have at present.
Win or lose this referendum Alex Salmond has done all he promised he would as to getting a referendum, the way it would be held, the wording as to it and more importantly he got it to be a binding referendum, no matter how close the result.
With the rest of the UK having no voice at all as to this possible break up of the UK.

Alex Salmond, for me, has demonstrated very ably, the formidable politician he is.
This has to be a worrying time for the PM, he could go down in history as the PM who presided over the break up of the UK because of his short sightedness.

[Northern Monkey]

I honestly could'nt care less if Scotland goes independant or not along with evey other English person i know.It does seem strange that Scots would vote yes when Salmond can't even say what currency he would use if he did get a yes vote.Seems like the blind leading the blind as nobody actually knows what would happen to Scotland practically.

[joeysteele]

I honestly could'nt care less if Scotland goes independant or not along with evey other English person i know.It does seem strange that Scots would vote yes when Salmond can't even say what currency he would use if he did get a yes vote.Seems like the blind leading the blind as nobody actually knows what would happen to Scotland practically.

Alex Salmond however does know that if Scotland votes yes, the UK govt will find a way to accommodate them keeping them the pound, it is as much in Englands Wales and N Irelands interest for Scotland to do so.

The aim of Alex Salmond in time will be likely to adopt the euro and I also believe the EU after a yes vote would bend over backwards to fasttrack Scotland as an EU member.
Another reason for the present UK govt to stop the weak and idle threats and work constructively and amiably with the Scottish parliament if independence is voted for.

Oddly enough,in a yes result the momentum would certainly be with Alex Salmond and really the remaining bits of what was the UK could end up being the ones finding problems internationally.

[lostalex]

1 year ago i would say there's no ****ing way this could happen, but now i'm wondering...

[Toy Soldier]

I honestly could'nt care less if Scotland goes independant or not along with evey other English person i know.It does seem strange that Scots would vote yes when Salmond can't even say what currency he would use if he did get a yes vote.Seems like the blind leading the blind as nobody actually knows what would happen to Scotland practically.

In my opinion though, seeing this as a "worry" stems from the complete misconception that we "know what will happen" to the UK as a whole over the next few years or decades. We don't, and frankly, from what we *do* know it isn't looking particularly good.

There's this idea that a vote for "no" means a vote for "everything staying the same 'cause it's fine"... when the reality is, the country (UK as it is, Scotland, England / rUK, whichever) is headed towards some massive changes no matter what.

My own opinion is that the current apparent improvements / stability of the UK economy hinge almost entirely on an illusion surrounding a London-based economic bubble (things everywhere else are still **** and getting worse, but the figures are skewed by the city) and that bubble will, INEVITABLY, burst within the next decade. When that happens, the economic "immune system" will inevitably react by siphoning any and all available liquid assets south and towards London.

Currently, independence is the only option available to protect Scotland from bearing the absolute worst of that effect.

I'm under no illusions that things won't be tough in an indy Scotland, for a few years or maybe even decades. I just happen to believe that far from being "safer" to stick with the Union to avoid that... it would actually be far worse.

[lostalex]

leave Scotland alone!!!

http://nyulocal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/chris_crocker_leave_britney_alone.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h_CAqGJ_sg4/UBAfgm2bDqI/AAAAAAAAABs/gvLegwCjOS0/s1600/chris-crocker-crying.jpg

[joeysteele]

I say again I hope being from Scottish ancestry from my Dad that the Scots vote no to independence.
However like Lostalex,even a few months ago, I would not have expected to see things become this close.

The frantic talk now of more powers for Scotland for a no result is in many ways insulting to the Scots,
All the powers that could and would be devolved should have been revealed and detailed ages ago.

They then should have been another option on the ballot paper for independence as the third way to go.
If I was a full Scot, would I believe George Osborne and co as to this, definitely not.
Would I even in any way at all trust them either,again definitely not.

This is the danger with referenda, Margaret Thatcher never liked the idea of holding referendums, she believed elections were the only referenda needed and then elected representatives made the decisions.
David Cameron has presided over the granting of this referendum and what it asked,he now may preside over the breaking away of a Nation from what was the United Kingdom.
I also don't really see how we can still even be called the United Kingdom should Scotland vote yes.

The next 10 days are going to be exciting.
Really as Lostalex said, a year ago he wouldn't have believed this possible,neither did I and I can see that it may well be that Alex Salmond wins the day on this now next Thursday.

What a crisis that will then create for the present Govt. and particularly for this weak and 'potentially dangerous for the UK' Prime Minister.

[Toy Soldier]

Even with a no vote, the implications of it being this close should... SHOULD but probably won't... Be a massive prompt for some reflection in Westminster. I'm not sure there's any point in history, except maybe during the worst Thatcher years, where a vote for independence would have been this close to 50/50. The current govt. are absolutely shafting everyone outside of the London area and there are huge inherent problems with the entire system. Even the governance within England is too centralised.

[Z]

I really don't know how I'm going to vote anymore. I thought I was against independence for the longest time but now I'm on the fence.

[Niamh.]

I really don't know how I'm going to vote anymore. I thought I was against independence for the longest time but now I'm on the fence.

What would William Wallace do? :hehe:

[Z]

What would William Wallace do? :hehe:

I'll just nip down the road and ask him

[arista]

I really don't know how I'm going to vote anymore. I thought I was against independence for the longest time but now I'm on the fence.


Nothing wrong with that
so many are
with stupid front pages for
British papers today.

[joeysteele]

I really don't know how I'm going to vote anymore. I thought I was against independence for the longest time but now I'm on the fence.

Good luck with your choice Z, you are a very level headed person who I think has a good heart too.
Whatever choice you make, for or against independence,one thing I believe now, Scotland has a great future as part of the UK or going its own way.

It is a respected Nation, it hasn't been treated well by UK govts overall but if it is a yes to independence,I am sure Scotland will prosper and if it is a no to independence,my hope is maybe this will have shaken the main parties in Westminster to realise they cannot nor must not continue to walk over Scotland and take it for granted in the future.

[Nedusa]

Most Scots if they do their homework will find that they are currently favourably served by the Union and so why fix it if it aint broke. From free prescriptions to free Student grants to free old peoples homes Scotland does quite well when compared to their English cousins.

But it's not really about the head it's more a feeling from the heart, it's about a Country deciding it's own fate, making it's own laws and standing (or falling) on it's own feet.

This is a great opportunity for Scotland to finally decide it's own fate and I for one hope they achieve Independence but have a feeling they will narrowly vote to stay in the Union.




.

[the truth]

i think they should do whatever is best for scotland.....it will come down to economics mainly....trade, taxes, self determination, the pound etc
I really wish them well if they do go it alone....fantastic country on the whole. perhaps as an independent nation they may have a better chance of tackling the issues of crime drugs binge drinking as the rule makers will be closer to home. its never an ideal situation to be run by another country.

[Toy Soldier]

i think they should do whatever is best for scotland.....it will come down to economics mainly....trade, taxes, self determination, the pound etc
I really wish them well if they do go it alone....fantastic country on the whole. perhaps as an independent nation they may have a better chance of tackling the issues of crime drugs binge drinking as the rule makers will be closer to home. its never an ideal situation to be run by another country.

This is a big part of the issue for me. There are issues in Scottish towns that are genuinely unique to Scotland (and I've lived in a comparable northern English town), and I don't think they'll ever be tackled properly without significantly more power to do so based closer to home. London politics will never come close to a solution and current devolution isn't enough - several recent policies (ATOS, bedroom tax) are compounding the problems. It doesn't help that many of those issues are firmly rooted in Thatcher's 1980's either...

[Kizzy]

I heard the queen is very cross :hmph:

[arista]

I heard the queen is very cross :hmph:


Yes under the Rules
has agreed to stay out of it.



http://news.sky.com/story/1332713/pm-to-miss-pmqs-in-scotland-campaign-panic

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/9/9/334583/default/v2/adaptive-comp-template-two-way-1-626x352.jpg
The PM and the Labour leader
are both going to Scotland
so no PMQ's for those 2,
tomorrow
Shouting Harmen will take over the Labour side
and W. Hague for Conservative for PMQs

[Toy Soldier]

Yes under the Rules
has agreed to stay out of it.



http://news.sky.com/story/1332713/pm-to-miss-pmqs-in-scotland-campaign-panic

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/9/9/334583/default/v2/adaptive-comp-template-two-way-1-626x352.jpg
The PM and the Labour leader
are both going to Scotland
so no PMQ's for those 2,
tomorrow
Shouting Harmen will take over the Labour side
and W. Hague for Conservative for PMQs

If there's one sure-fire way to increase the Yes vote polling percentage... it's by sending these three up to Scotland :joker:

[andybigbro]

What the yes campaign are promising. They can't be certain about it.
The risk is to high, leaving the Uk would be disastrous for Scotland.

I hate how some Scottish people need Scotland to be independent to validate themsves as Scottish.

I'm Scottish, and Scotland being an independent country isn't going to change how Scottish I am.

[Nedusa]

I heard over 100 MP's are planning to rush up to Scotland in a last minute desperate attempt to shore up the No vote.

The Yes camp are calling it " The Charge of the sh ite Brigade"



.

[arista]

If there's one sure-fire way to increase the Yes vote polling percentage... it's by sending these three up to Scotland :joker:



Yes they do not need
the PM or Ed


its enough to say feck 'em
Vote Yes for freedom from Westminster tosh

[Crimson Dynamo]

I really don't know how I'm going to vote anymore. I thought I was against independence for the longest time but now I'm on the fence.

vote for a fairer future

be positive:spin:

[Crimson Dynamo]

The fact that Cameron dare not set his foot in Scotland is the most telling thing imaginable

its beyond uncanny

[andybigbro]

Vote no, for security and a better opportunities.

Vote yes if you want scotland to fail.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Vote no, for security and a better opportunities.

Vote yes if you want scotland to fail.

fail at what?

fail at letting some etonian twats make our rules?

[andybigbro]

fail at what?

fail at letting some etonian twats make our rules?

Fail at Education, employment, security etc

Scotland is much stronger when it's part of the United Kingdom! Why anybody would want to break away from a union that's been working together since 1707 is beyond me.

It's been stated that Scotland will gain more powers in Westminster,
What the yes voters are promising CANNOT be promised.

[andybigbro]

Once scotland leave there is NO GOING BACK. I'm not willing to take the risk for my future and my families future.

.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Once scotland leave there is NO GOING BACK. I'm not willing to take the risk for my future and my families future.

.

but you are happy to have nuclear weapons a few miles down the road, happy to go into illegal wars that have caused terrorism at home and abroad?


jesus wept :facepalm:

[arista]

Once scotland leave there is NO GOING BACK. I'm not willing to take the risk for my future and my families future.

.


They know that


Freedom is far better

[arista]

but you are happy to have nuclear weapons a few miles down the road, happy to go into illegal wars that have caused terrorism at home and abroad?


jesus wept :facepalm:



Valid Points LT

[andybigbro]

I'm happy with Scotland having more say in Westminster, which would allow the discussions of nuclear weapons be brought up. I think to leave UK based on that is absurd. There have been so a many great things THe Uk have done together and to break away from it just hinders people in Scotland's opportunities, businesses, security.

And artista why are you so struck on getting rid of scotland?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm happy with Scotland having more say in Westminster, which would allow the discussions of nuclear weapons be brought up. I think to leave UK based on that is absurd. There have been so a many great things THe Uk have done together and to break away from it just hinders people in Scotland's opportunities, businesses, security.

And artista why are you so struck on getting rid of scotland?

What things have the "UK" done together that have been great?

[andybigbro]

Worked together in wars, helped other countries out with aid etc.

I don't see why people would want to leave, all I see it as over patriotics that feel the need to prove themselves to be Scottish.

I am voting no because it's the safer and better choice for my future and my families future, the yes campaign cannot guarantee what they are promising and when it fails there're is no going back and Scotland will be screwed.

I am not here for leaving a union that has been together since 1707 and something I have grown up with due to there being nukes in the country, which LOTS of countries have.

Oil will run out, then what Scotland? Cry to England, Wales and Nortthern Ireland for help? NO CHANCE.

[arista]

I'm happy with Scotland having more say in Westminster, which would allow the discussions of nuclear weapons be brought up. I think to leave UK based on that is absurd. There have been so a many great things THe Uk have done together and to break away from it just hinders people in Scotland's opportunities, businesses, security.

And artista why are you so struck on getting rid of scotland?


Because its not getting rid of it
it means Freedom for the Scottish.
and for me it kills off over 40 Labour MP's

[andybigbro]

Because its not getting rid of it
it means Freedom for the Scottish.
and for me it kills off over 40 Labour MP's

I hate that word freedom, it's not William Wallace days ffs.

People of Scotland are FREE. Scotland is it's own country, it just has a secure unit within the United Kingdom, why ruin that?

[arista]

I hate that word freedom, it's not William Wallace days ffs.

People of Scotland are FREE. Scotland is it's own country, it just has a secure unit within the United Kingdom, why ruin that?


It will not.


It will become a Great Nation
and the Queen can say nothing about it
as its not her remit

[Crimson Dynamo]

Worked together in wars, helped other countries out with aid etc.

I don't see why people would want to leave, all I see it as over patriotics that feel the need to prove themselves to be Scottish.

I am voting no because it's the safer and better choice for my future and my families future, the yes campaign cannot guarantee what they are promising and when it fails there're is no going back and Scotland will be screwed.

I am not here for leaving a union that has been together since 1707 and something I have grown up with due to there being nukes in the country, which LOTS of countries have.

Oil will run out, then what Scotland? Cry to England, Wales and Nortthern Ireland for help? NO CHANCE.

Worked together in wars, helped other countries out with aid etc.


and being our own country means we cant do that? :conf:

you are just arguing that change is bad because it means something new

We had the union foisted upon us by deceit, we have a government we dont elect making decisions for us. We are part of a union with a country 10 times larger who govern us

Dont fear change, change is what makes things

[andybigbro]

Worked together in wars, helped other countries out with aid etc.


and being our own country means we cant do that? :conf:

you are just arguing that change is bad because it means something new

We had the union foisted upon us by deceit, we have a government we dont elect making decisions for us. We are part of a union with a country 10 times larger who govern us

Dont fear change, change is what makes things

Scotland IS it's own country, regardless if it's part of the UK or not. But no we wouldn't be able to do those things on the same scale. Scotland wouldn't have a strong defence.

Scotkand will have more powers within Westminster, which both the no campaign plus David Cameron etc are agreeing on.

I'm not a bitter scot who feels overshadowed by England, I embrace the fact we have friends neighbours and a security.

Change is also what breaks things, and I'm not here to take the risk because we need to think about the FUTURE, even when we are all long gone. Staying part if the uk us better for our businesses, our opportunities, our security.

Why take the risk, when we are being told we will have more power in Westminster?

The yes campaign saying we can keep the pound, their idea of independence very independent then is it. If they want to cling into the Currency of the UK :hehe:

[Crimson Dynamo]

the Suns political ed just said on LBC

Cameron
Clegg
Miliband

will be gone by Christmas if its a YES next week

He says NO is in total disarray

[Toy Soldier]

Worked together in wars, helped other countries out with aid etc.

I don't see why people would want to leave, all I see it as over patriotics that feel the need to prove themselves to be Scottish.

I am voting no because it's the safer and better choice for my future and my families future, the yes campaign cannot guarantee what they are promising and when it fails there're is no going back and Scotland will be screwed.

I am not here for leaving a union that has been together since 1707 and something I have grown up with due to there being nukes in the country, which LOTS of countries have.

Oil will run out, then what Scotland? Cry to England, Wales and Nortthern Ireland for help? NO CHANCE.

Do you think there are any guarantees when it comes to staying in the UK, either? WHY do you think it's the "safer" choice for the future of your family? This suggests that the UK as it is is still strong and stable. It is not, it is broken, the pot is running dry and the status quo is just to desperately try to keep everything the same with false promises and false finances. Things simply CANNOT "continue as they are", in one way or another, there WILL be drastic changes that affect all of us.

With that in mind: would you rather be in a small country with very decent resources per-head and a strong sense of fairness and community (Independent Scotland) OR would you rather be part of a union that will protect one city (London) AT ALL COSTS and will bleed Scotland dry to do so? You talk about risks and safety but you don't seem to have given any real thought to the risks of being IN the union. You think that a vote for "no" is a vote for "no change", that things will just trundle along fine and stay comfortable and the same as ever. Look at the figures. This is simply impossible.

[JoshBB]

If scotland was independent, I'd strongly consider moving there when I grow older. The two main parties (SNP & Labour) both being left and socialist parties is just music to my ears. They are a country that has it right! :)

[joeysteele]

If scotland was independent, I'd strongly consider moving there when I grow older. The two main parties (SNP & Labour) both being left and socialist parties is just music to my ears. They are a country that has it right! :)

Me too actually.

I do still hope for a no vote myself but I do understand why the Scots are tempted and may yet actually vote for independence.

I also believe the UK would be a stronger place with Scotland still there in it but I also do believe that Scotland could be a really successful Nation with independence in its own right.

I have family in Scotland,from Inverness down to Jedburgh and even a few of them, originally being committed as no to independence now are going to vote yes.

It is amazing how things have turned the last 2 weeks.

[arista]

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/9/9/334709/default/v1/times-1-329x437.jpg


Good

[Angelika]

What happens if things don't work out, will we see a migration of Scots to England & Wales?

I feel unhappy about them parting company but if that is their destiny, I'll support them.
Yes, I'll continue to buy haggis, shortbread, black pudding, white pudding, rare Scottish beef, woollies, tartan, single malt whiskey. I'll continue to feel proud of Scottish inventions like TV, bicycles, telephones, steam engines, trout fishing, the bagpipes, Kilts, throwing the caber, Robert Burns, etc.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Darling and Brown got the UK into the mess it is now by taking on the debts of the banks. now both are trying to tell scots what is the right thing to do fiscally?

you could not make it up


smh

[billy123]

I dont care either way to be honest and im the only Englishman in my household the rest being Scottish.
Wave goodbye to their free prescriptions,free university's and free care homes and say hello to border controls,the cost of setting up their own passports,currency and trade agreements.

It makes no difference to me but it does worry me that the afore mentioned issues have not even started to be resolved or even talked about much.
This has a good chance of being carried forward on nothing but a wave of nationalistic fervour which seems more than a little naive.

The yes camp is riding a wave of pride which is very nice but what happens when the waves die down and the tide goes out?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I dont care either way to be honest and im the only Englishman in my household the rest being Scottish.
Wave goodbye to their free prescriptions,free university's and free care homes and say hello to border controls,the cost of setting up their own passports,currency and trade agreements.

It makes no difference to me but it does worry me that the afore mentioned issues have not even started to be resolved or even talked about much.
This has a good chance of being carried forward on nothing but a wave of nationalistic fervour which seems more than a little naive.

The yes camp is riding a wave of pride which is very nice but what happens when the waves die down and the tide goes out?

To think that the Scottish government has not thought about those things is pretty bizarre - did you even have a cursory look at the white paper? You are just regurgitating fear dogma from the Daily Mail

The Scottish government position is unequivocal:

There are no circumstances in which the Scottish government would countenance any measure being taken that jeopardised the ability of citizens across the rUK [rest of the UK] and Ireland to move freely across the borders as they are presently able to do. It is for this reason that following independence Scotland will remain part of the Common Travel Area (CTA).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-18364699

http://scotreferendum.com/reports/scotlands-future-your-guide-to-an-independent-scotland/

[joeysteele]

The truth is, there will be uncertainties were Scotland to be independent, not just for the Scots but also for the English,Welsh and those in Northern Ireland too.
The futures of all those Nations needs to be addressed if the Scots vote 'yes'.

However, Wales and Scotland particularly have had a pretty bad deal within the UK from successive govts.of both parties and even moreso from this coalition disaster we have had for the last 4+ years.

Fear of the unknown should not be barrier to taking the challenge.
The rest of Europe,other Nations too along with the USA would want Scotland to succeed if it said 'yes'.
I also firmly believe it would be in England's,Wales and N.Ireland's interests too to support and ensure the stability of Scotland being so close a neighbour.

The only person talking sense for me at present is Alex Salmond on this,he knows there are uncertainties and challenges ahead but he feels Scotland,no matter what govt. it chooses for itself can rise to that challenge.

All we hear from the no camp, is as he says negative statements and threat after threat.
I heard today that if the Scots vote yes, then in 2016 the Scots MPs elected to Westminster would be gone and there would have to be another election.
Nonsense, that will depend on the result of the 2015 election anyway.

If as the polls suggest,Labour were to win say a 40 overall majority,which is the present guide from the polls.
No further election would in fact be necessary,losing the Scots seats would reduce the Westminster parliament to 591 seats, If Labour had a 40 overall majority,losing the likely 42 Scottish MPs they had would still leave them with an overall majority
in double figures.
Likewise if the Conservative party scraped in by say a 5 to 10 overall majority then again no new election would be necessary as that overall majority would rise in Westminster.

Instead of harping on about all the negatives and things that may need to happen, the 'no' campaign should be spelling out exactly in clear detail all the new powers Scotland would actually get.
While similar,there are 3 varying degees of transfers of power on the table, now which one will 100% be given to the Scots,that we don't know as the 'no' campaign will not spell out the full detail..

I think Alex Salmond is well aware that Westminster 'will' have to work closely with an independent Scotland,no more walking over the Scots by Westminster but dealing on an equal basis with them.

I know this post appears to favour independence and maybe I have come round to thinking Scotland could do better on its own.
My view now however stems from what I believe has been a disastrous and negative 'no' campaign,that still appears to take the Scots for granted by talking 'at' them and not 'to' them.

The way for Westminster to help ensure financial stability for all is to say what they will likely be forced to say if Scotland votes 'yes' and that is, yes Scotland can operate the pound still.
It would be folly for Westminster to refuse and obstruct an independent Scotland doing so,that would cause massive problems for the citizens of the remaning original UK countries.

On that point,I really feel Alex Salmond has won the day and with the EU likely to do all it can to support an independent Scotland,it may well be that it is the bumbling, incompetent politicians we have been left with, that have the greater struggle after a 'yes' result..

[Kyle]

Joey, for people like us that have Scottish and English parents but live in England what do we do about our passports if Scotland gets Independence? Sorry if it's a stupid question but do we leave them as they are or can we claim a Scottish Passport or something?

[Niamh.]

Joey, for people like us that have Scottish and English parents but live in England what do we do about our passports if Scotland gets Independence? Sorry if it's a stupid question but do we leave them as they are or can we claim a Scottish Passport or something?

I'd imagine you could choose either an English or Scottish passport, a friend of mine has Irish parents but he was born and spent most of his life in England but he has an Irish passport :shrug:

[Kyle]

I'd imagine you could choose either an English or Scottish passport, a friend of mine has Irish parents but he was born and spent most of his life in England but he has an Irish passport :shrug:

Ah right thanks Niamh. Probably best to just leave it for now lol.

[Lee.]

Niamh.. My pro- independence views have been met several times with "urgh! I take it you've never been to Ireland"

I haven't actually ever been to Ireland.. Is it really that bad? Do you look at the UK longingly and wish you were part of us? Serious question.

[Niamh.]

Niamh.. My pro- independence views have been met several times with "urgh! I take it you've never been to Ireland"

I haven't actually ever been to Ireland.. Is it really that bad? Do you look at the UK longingly and wish you were part of us? Serious question.

No way. Sure we've had issues with the banks and bail outs and that but we're clawing our way back again and getting on top of things. Things have improved majorly in the last 12 months in regards to work etc.

What do they mean by that statement anyway, Have you ever been to Ireland? Makes us sound like we're a third world country or something :laugh:

Anyway, just because one country might be doing better than another doesn't mean you want to switch nationalities lol If Germany is doing better than England would the English all want to become German? :think:

[Lee.]

No way. Sure we've had issues with the banks and bail outs and that but we're clawing our way back again and getting on top of things. Things have improved majorly in the last 12 months in regards to work etc.

What do they mean by that statement anyway, Have you ever been to Ireland? Makes us sound like we're a third world country or something :laugh:

Anyway, just because one country might be doing better than another doesn't mean you want to switch nationalities lol If Germany is doing better than England would the English all want to become German? :think:

This is good Niamh! I'm still coming to stay there if we vote no on the 18th! :)

[Niamh.]

This is good Niamh! I'm still coming to stay there if we vote no on the 18th! :)

:laugh: anytime

[Crimson Dynamo]

The truth is, there will be uncertainties were Scotland to be independent, not just for the Scots but also for the English,Welsh and those in Northern Ireland too.
The futures of all those Nations needs to be addressed if the Scots vote 'yes'.

However, Wales and Scotland particularly have had a pretty bad deal within the UK from successive govts.of both parties and even moreso from this coalition disaster we have had for the last 4+ years.

Fear of the unknown should not be barrier to taking the challenge.
The rest of Europe,other Nations too along with the USA would want Scotland to succeed if it said 'yes'.
I also firmly believe it would be in England's,Wales and N.Ireland's interests too to support and ensure the stability of Scotland being so close a neighbour.

The only person talking sense for me at present is Alex Salmond on this,he knows there are uncertainties and challenges ahead but he feels Scotland,no matter what govt. it chooses for itself can rise to that challenge.

All we hear from the no camp, is as he says negative statements and threat after threat.
I heard today that if the Scots vote yes, then in 2016 the Scots MPs elected to Westminster would be gone and there would have to be another election.
Nonsense, that will depend on the result of the 2015 election anyway.

If as the polls suggest,Labour were to win say a 40 overall majority,which is the present guide from the polls.
No further election would in fact be necessary,losing the Scots seats would reduce the Westminster parliament to 591 seats, If Labour had a 40 overall majority,losing the likely 42 Scottish MPs they had would still leave them with an overall majority
in double figures.
Likewise if the Conservative party scraped in by say a 5 to 10 overall majority then again no new election would be necessary as that overall majority would rise in Westminster.

Instead of harping on about all the negatives and things that may need to happen, the 'no' campaign should be spelling out exactly in clear detail all the new powers Scotland would actually get.
While similar,there are 3 varying degees of transfers of power on the table, now which one will 100% be given to the Scots,that we don't know as the 'no' campaign will not spell out the full detail..

I think Alex Salmond is well aware that Westminster 'will' have to work closely with an independent Scotland,no more walking over the Scots by Westminster but dealing on an equal basis with them.

I know this post appears to favour independence and maybe I have come round to thinking Scotland could do better on its own.
My view now however stems from what I believe has been a disastrous and negative 'no' campaign,that still appears to take the Scots for granted by talking 'at' them and not 'to' them.

The way for Westminster to help ensure financial stability for all is to say what they will likely be forced to say if Scotland votes 'yes' and that is, yes Scotland can operate the pound still.
It would be folly for Westminster to refuse and obstruct an independent Scotland doing so,that would cause massive problems for the citizens of the remaning original UK countries.

On that point,I really feel Alex Salmond has won the day and with the EU likely to do all it can to support an independent Scotland,it may well be that it is the bumbling, incompetent politicians we have been left with, that have the greater struggle after a 'yes' result..

Great points joey. the scots and nation of inventors and with great change and great problems you get great invention. Of course there will be problems to solve but that should never stop a country from striving to be fairer and more caring to its populace.

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/s720x720/10549923_863055850371993_1296761495519984815_o.png

David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband are on a flying visit to Scotland today. Use this to highlight the clear choice we have next week - taking Scotland's future in Scotland hands, or leaving it in the hands of an out-of-touch Westminster.

"The Westminster parties have confirmed that a No vote won’t deliver a single new job-creating power or the protection we need for our NHS. Remind friends and family that only a Yes vote ensures:

Our NHS and other public services are completely protected from future cuts and NHS privatisation in England;

We get the job-creating powers we need;

Scotland will always get the governments we vote for.

Scotland is one of the very wealthiest countries in the world, which means we can choose independence with confidence. It also means that with a Yes, we can make sure our vast wealth delivers much more for the people who live here. This is a very powerful message for the final week of the campaign, so speak to as many people as possible."

-------


just got this via email

[the truth]

hopefully devo max will be enough. but are the tories really trying to lose scotland? their last ditch desperate attempts are all backfiring , the more tories they send last minute to jockland the more desperate they appear and the more it winds up the scots. the scots hate the tories with good reason. they destroyed their economy and many communities under thatcher. as in the north and throughout the welsh valleys, they detsroyed the steel works, the copper, the coal, the tin, even the lime quarries and all other industries. the stories i could tell you would make you cry. im sure you all know o people destroyed by thatcher flooding the coal mines , of the best coal in the world. compare it to belgian coal it takes 3 times longer to burn welsh coal as the seams are richer and way deeper like blaenau and hatfield


theyre rightly sick to death of westminster self serving politics which lets face it is a cesspit of lies deceit self serving tossers. the main issue is that london and the south will take care of its own before scotland and also theyre so far away from scotland they dont have an intricate knowledge and hands on approach to the changes that need to be made in scotland. the wealth in the south compared to the rest of the uk is disgusting. it shows the sheer gluttony of london when you consider, wales has only just hoted a sitting president for the first time ever ? how nuts is that. US presidents have been going to london for over 200 years.....this is one tiny example of the vast chasm between london and the rest of the uk. its got to stop. every region is as important as the other.

[arista]

[Don't destroy Britain just to give the 'effing Tories a kick'
PM Cameron close to tears in plea to save the Union.]


I say!
how nice of you to be using local lingo
PM


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2750393/What-going-invade-Salmond-accused-laughing-threats-Scotland-defaults-share-debt.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/09/10/article-2750393-213E25E700000578-761_964x451.jpg

[lostalex]

maybe in a few years the rest of the UK will vote to join Scotland?

[Z]

I feel like I'm living in a cuckoo clock, the Yes campaign basically didn't have a leg to stand on all this time, they were fighting an uphill battle trying to convince the people of Scotland to dip a toe, then a leg, then their whole selves into the unknown and all the Better Together "campaign" had to do was not sling mud back at the Yes campaign, whose campaigning method of choice has been to try and make the No side look stupid - not only did they completely take the bait but they then sent Alistair Darling to try and make them look good in a televised debate and he took the bait on live TV and now they have "call me Dave" Cameron taking the bait 8 days before the referendum. I actually think the yes campaign might win now, and I would never have predicted that in a million years. It's not because the Yes lot have been particularly good, it's because the No lot have been spectacularly bad. I'm on the fence and in principle I think I'm still a no voter but I wouldn't really care what the result was either way anymore. I can't call it anymore. I think a marginal yes victory or a marginal no victory.

[arista]

I feel like I'm living in a cuckoo clock, the Yes campaign basically didn't have a leg to stand on all this time, they were fighting an uphill battle trying to convince the people of Scotland to dip a toe, then a leg, then their whole selves into the unknown and all the Better Together "campaign" had to do was not sling mud back at the Yes campaign, whose campaigning method of choice has been to try and make the No side look stupid - not only did they completely take the bait but they then sent Alistair Darling to try and make them look good in a televised debate and he took the bait on live TV and now they have "call me Dave" Cameron taking the bait 8 days before the referendum. I actually think the yes campaign might win now, and I would never have predicted that in a million years. It's not because the Yes lot have been particularly good, it's because the No lot have been spectacularly bad. I'm on the fence and in principle I think I'm still a no voter but I wouldn't really care what the result was either way anymore. I can't call it anymore. I think a marginal yes victory or a marginal no victory.


Why he is up there?
they hate being told what to do

[arista]

Live Debate on Ch4HDNews

its the under 20 year year olds
that can swing the results
many more young want the Yes vote


And is so great that some Scottish Labour
are now voting Yes.


Life In The Fast Lane

[joeysteele]

It is a pity that since David Cameron took the trouble to go up to Scotland that instead of preaching to invited/selected audiences and doing the rounds of the bigger businesses,he actually took the time to 'talk to' the ordinary citizens of Scotland.
Unbelievable how this PM treats 'ordinary' people of any nation.

[Northern Monkey]

Said on C4 that to go independant Scotland would need around £130 Billion in reserves,They actually have £15 Billion.They could try to join the EU and dip into their funds but it would take too long.Apparently.

[arista]

It is a pity that since David Cameron took the trouble to go up to Scotland that instead of preaching to invited/selected audiences and doing the rounds of the bigger businesses,he actually took the time to 'talk to' the ordinary citizens of Scotland.
Unbelievable how this PM treats 'ordinary' people of any nation.


Yes and the Labour Leader
doing the same



Thats why a Live Debate
with the young on Ch4HDNews is better

[joeysteele]

Yes and the Labour Leader
doing the same



Thats why a Live Debate
with the young on Ch4HDNews is better

No disagreement from me as to that but he has been round the streets a little more as has amazingly Nick Clegg,(never ceases to amaze me that Clegg dares to face any voters anywhere)..

David Cameron is however supposed the be the prime Minister of the whole UK and for me he should,instead of all these months sitting doing very little,have been fighting personally and doing more to protect the union.
Rather than be panicked into doing something at the last minute that again falls way short of what he needed to.

[Josy]

I feel like I'm living in a cuckoo clock, the Yes campaign basically didn't have a leg to stand on all this time, they were fighting an uphill battle trying to convince the people of Scotland to dip a toe, then a leg, then their whole selves into the unknown and all the Better Together "campaign" had to do was not sling mud back at the Yes campaign, whose campaigning method of choice has been to try and make the No side look stupid - not only did they completely take the bait but they then sent Alistair Darling to try and make them look good in a televised debate and he took the bait on live TV and now they have "call me Dave" Cameron taking the bait 8 days before the referendum. I actually think the yes campaign might win now, and I would never have predicted that in a million years. It's not because the Yes lot have been particularly good, it's because the No lot have been spectacularly bad. I'm on the fence and in principle I think I'm still a no voter but I wouldn't really care what the result was either way anymore. I can't call it anymore. I think a marginal yes victory or a marginal no victory.

You will care in the end because no matter what happens it's going to mean big changes for our country, atm the country is split down the middle and I just hope it can come back from that after this referendum, all I'm going to say is make your own decision, I have lost count of the amount of comments I have seen over the pst couple of weeks saying 'I'm not telling you how you should vote BUT' then go on to list reasons on why you should vote for what they think is right, so do your own research into things, you still have time and make sure you vote because every vote is extremely important.

[lostalex]

so when does Ireland get to have a referendum? or maybe we should just allow some parts of Scotland to become separate?

[Toy Soldier]

You will care in the end because no matter what happens it's going to mean big changes for our country, atm the country is split down the middle and I just hope it can come back from that after this referendum, all I'm going to say is make your own decision, I have lost count of the amount of comments I have seen over the pst couple of weeks saying 'I'm not telling you how you should vote BUT' then go on to list reasons on why you should vote for what they think is right, so do your own research into things, you still have time and make sure you vote because every vote is extremely important.

I don't think the split is as bad as it seems. From what I've seen, people seem very able to discuss politics and independence and have it get heated, but then still be laughing and joking together when the topic changes to something else. Also... We're Scottish (and, after all, British) and therefore terminally accustomed to disappointment :joker:. Whichever side "wins", it's unlikely to spark riots, just a sense of "oh ffs. Oh well. Just have to make the best if it :(". I mean... No one was jumping off bridges when the Tories got into power 4 years ago... And basically NO ONE wanted that.

[Toy Soldier]

so when does Ireland get to have a referendum? or maybe we should just allow some parts of Scotland to become separate?

The problem with ever trying to have a "proper" referendum in N.I (which I assume you mean, as R.O.I is already... well... a Republic...) is that the division is completely wrapped up in sectarianism. It could (and probably would) spill over into violence very quickly.

[lostalex]

The problem with ever trying to have a "proper" referendum in N.I (which I assume you mean, as R.O.I is already... well... a Republic...) is that the division is completely wrapped up in sectarianism. It could (and probably would) spill over into violence very quickly.

No, i didn't mean the so-called Republic of Ireland, i mean All of Ireland, just like All of Scotland gets to vote...not just the parts that are pro Brritish, but the whole thing.

or should just SOME parts of Scotland then also get to vote for independence?

after this referendum should we then have a vote for just certain parts of Scotland to become their own republic?

[michael21]

You will care in the end because no matter what happens it's going to mean big changes for our country, atm the country is split down the middle and I just hope it can come back from that after this referendum, all I'm going to say is make your own decision, I have lost count of the amount of comments I have seen over the pst couple of weeks saying 'I'm not telling you how you should vote BUT' then go on to list reasons on why you should vote for what they think is right, so do your own research into things, you still have time and make sure you vote because every vote is extremely important.

the whole of the uk should get to vote as it we affect some outside scotland i say feck off scotland england don't need you

[lostalex]

the whole of the uk should get to vote as it we affect some outside scotland i say feck off scotland england don't need you

If England could vote for independence then, would you vote for England to become independent from the rest of the UK?

[the truth]

we wouldnt vote for independence in england because the majority is in the south and theyre wealthier than everywhere else so were happy with the status quo overall

[Toy Soldier]

No, i didn't mean the so-called Republic of Ireland, i mean All of Ireland, just like All of Scotland gets to vote...not just the parts that are pro Brritish, but the whole thing.

or should just SOME parts of Scotland then also get to vote for independence?

after this referendum should we then have a vote for just certain parts of Scotland to become their own republic?

R.O.I and N.I are not two parts of the same country, though...

the whole of the uk should get to vote as it we affect some outside scotland i say feck off scotland england don't need you

The fact that David Cameron and the other big players in London are currently sweating, simpering and casually ****ing in their pants right now suggests that England DOES need Scotland... to stay as prosperous as it possibly can, at least.

Some might argue that that's because the two are "stronger together"... but given that Scotland only has 5 million people - less than 10% of the overall population - the cynic in me wonders if it might not be because Scotland is, in fact, far more resource-wealthy per head and is being sucked dry by a population-heavy, resource-scarce London...

[lostalex]

R.O.I and N.I are not two parts of the same country, though...



they were once, and shouldn't they decide as a country.

[lostalex]

The irish should decide as a nation, with no british interference. All of Ireland.

[Lee.]

the whole of the uk should get to vote as it we affect some outside scotland i say feck off scotland england don't need you

They're certainly acting like they need us :suspect:

[Toy Soldier]

They're certainly acting like they need us :suspect:

Exactly. If holding onto the Scottish land and people (only 5 million) is so important to England, then does it not follow that Scotland must be a net gain for the UK as a whole? If the loss would genuinely weaken England on the global stage... it's the only thing that makes sense. It simply CANNOT be about the people - 5 million is a significant number but not a HUGE dent in the UK's overall population - it HAS to be about everything else that Scotland has to offer. And if what Scotland has to offer is that important to a country of 60 million - consider... what must it be worth per-head to our own 5 million?

It's just a shame that this didn't come post-industrialisation. Just imagine how rich Scotland would be now if it had been independent before ANY of the oil had been claimed...

[arista]

Alex is live on Bloomberg
talking with the press of the world

[Nedusa]

Apparently when the total amount of Monies spent on welfare, benefits,NHS etc is divided into the total number of people in the UK, there are some interesting figures.

People living in Scotland receive on average £1,200 per annum per person more than their English conterparts. This extra money goes to fund free prescriptions,free further education and free old age care for all Scottish people.

So they already get a far better deal already and the current Govt is bending over backwards to offer them more to vote No and stay in the Union.

Why ??

Is it a case of keeping the UK punching above it's weight on the World stage, maybe Scotland should leave the Union.

But why would they want to if they have such a good deal, a deal that will only improve after the next round of "Devolution".




.

[Northern Monkey]

Lol.Royal Bank of Scotland is planning to base itself in London in the event of a 'Yes' vote.

[michael21]

If England could vote for independence then, would you vote for England to become independent from the rest of the UK?

what the hell are you talking about i saying england should also get to vote in the scotland independence referendum which is what this thread is about :shrug:

[Niamh.]

what the hell are you talking about i saying england should also get to vote in the scotland independence referendum which is what this thread is about :shrug:

why should England get to vote on another countries independence? :think:

[michael21]

why should England get to vote on another countries independence? :think:

because as it stands both come under the UK so seem fair all should be able to vote

[Niamh.]

because as it stands both come under the UK so seem fair all should be able to vote

No it doesn't, Scotland should decide their own future

[michael21]

No it doesn't, Scotland should decide their own future

so are you saying the vote does not affect england in anyway :conf:

[Kyle]

Michael it's not our decision. Think of Scotland like you would think of your bird...or sock in your case. If she wants to leave just let her go mate.

[michael21]

Michael it's not our decision. Think of Scotland like you would think of your bird...or sock. If she wants to leave just let her go mate.

i want scotland to go it be more fun then

the diggers need to be on stand by :dance:

[Niamh.]

so are you saying the vote does not affect england in anyway :conf:

Of course it affects England but England forced Scotland to become part of the UK in the first place so it should be Scotlands choice now whether they want to stay or not, don't you think?

[michael21]

Of course it affects England but England forced Scotland to become part of the UK in the first place so it should be Scotlands choice now whether they want to stay or not, don't you think?

i did not no that when did this happen

[Northern Monkey]

i did not no that when did this happen

1707

[michael21]

1707

time have move on and we have internet now

[Kyle]

time have move on and we have internet now

I wish you had your own talk show Michael I really do.

[Novo]

Won't stop the Union jack being proudly displayed in Glorious Ibrox

[Northern Monkey]

Lol.Royal Bank of Scotland is planning to base itself in London in the event of a 'Yes' vote.

Lloyds are also thinking of moving to London in a 'Yes' vote.Lol,Don't think they've thought this through properly have they?All the businesses are gonna piss of to England.

[Kyle]

Won't stop the Union jack being proudly displayed in Glorious Ibrox

That will never stop us brother.

GSTQ

[Lee.]

Apparently when the total amount of Monies spent on welfare, benefits,NHS etc is divided into the total number of people in the UK, there are some interesting figures.

People living in Scotland receive on average £1,200 per annum per person more than their English conterparts. This extra money goes to fund free prescriptions,free further education and free old age care for all Scottish people.

So they already get a far better deal already and the current Govt is bending over backwards to offer them more to vote No and stay in the Union.

Why ??

Is it a case of keeping the UK punching above it's weight on the World stage, maybe Scotland should leave the Union.

But why would they want to if they have such a good deal, a deal that will only improve after the next round of "Devolution".

What you failed to mention is that during that year when Scotland received £1200 more public spending per head, is that we actually generated £1700 more of tax per head.


.

Lol.Royal Bank of Scotland is planning to base itself in London in the event of a 'Yes' vote.

More scaremongering. The RBS May or may not re-register it's head office in London.. This would be a paper only excercises and operations would not be moved, not would jobs be lost or moved down south.
Lloyds are also thinking of moving to London in a 'Yes' vote.Lol,Don't think they've thought this through properly have they?All the businesses are gonna piss of to England.

More scaremongering again. The head office for lloyds bank is already situated in London, and has been for 100 years.

[Toy Soldier]

Lloyds are also thinking of moving to London in a 'Yes' vote.Lol,Don't think they've thought this through properly have they?All the businesses are gonna piss of to England.

This is a misrepresentation. They have all mentioned "considerations", but of course they'll be considering their position. In reality, it will likely come down to what happens in the few years immediately following independence at which point these large businesses will be able to assess what's best for them financially. Relocating and restaffing is a HUGE expense. None of them are realistically going to do it unless there are even bigger financial implications in staying. Essentially... it'll come down to Scotland offering them sweet enough incentives to stay, which they almost certainly will.

There's a very good reason that many large UK businesses base themselves out of Dublin, Jersey, etc...

[Lee.]

Of course it affects England but England forced Scotland to become part of the UK in the first place so it should be Scotlands choice now whether they want to stay or not, don't you think?

i did not no that when did this happen

1707

:joker: :joker: :joker:

[Novo]

All the Scottish clubs should apply to play in the English football league quickly, or we should just offer them a place to put the final nail in the SNPs coffin

[Lee.]

Keep a hold of that nail until next Thursday Andy ;) Then we'll see where it's to be hammered

[daniel-lewis-1985]

If that's what they want then that's what they should get.

I do not believe however if say 51% of the Scots wanted to become independent and succeeded. Its unfair on the other half of the country who want to stay united.

This really should be a vote where if 80% of the population wants to become independent then fair enough and not as it currently is about to reward half the nation and punish the other half apposed.

[Brother Leon]

All the Scottish clubs should apply to play in the English football league quickly, or we should just offer them a place to put the final nail in the SNPs coffin

We don't want you fam :idc:

[Novo]

Don't leave us to Rot in the Wastelands

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/3d8f589fda4fb7526a70254d4/files/RBS_five_points_1_.pdf


regarding RBS

have a butchers

[Crimson Dynamo]

If that's what they want then that's what they should get.

I do not believe however if say 51% of the Scots wanted to become independent and succeeded. Its unfair on the other half of the country who want to stay united.

This really should be a vote where if 80% of the population wants to become independent then fair enough and not as it currently is about to reward half the nation and punish the other half apposed.

welcome to democracy

[Z]

welcome to democracy

Specifically, welcome to the number one problem with "first past the post" voting - where as long as you're the majority winner, it doesn't matter how many people are against. I find it shocking that we have general elections where a party can be dubbed the winner with less than 40% of the popular vote, never mind less than 50%!

6 days to go and I still haven't made my mind up. The one good thing to come out of all of this is I've never in my life encountered so many people so interested in politics, ever.

[arista]

CfsjJQrQ3-I&list=UUHeuoBGZ-zlu0Qe_-GEly7g


Just Recorded this



Love the BBC Scotland Sign in the background
you get it more clear towards the end.

[Angelika]

what the hell are you talking about i saying england should also get to vote in the scotland independence referendum which is what this thread is about :shrug:

Those who pay should say!

I think everyone in the UK should get proportional representation in Scotland's referendum. It affects us in the rest of the UK as much as it affects Scotland's residents. Scottish people live all over the UK and across the globe. Why should so few decide the fate of so many.

[Toy Soldier]

I do not believe however if say 51% of the Scots wanted to become independent and succeeded. Its unfair on the other half of the country who want to stay united.

But then how is that not unfair on the half that voted to separate? :conf:

[Kizzy]

Those who pay should say!

I think everyone in the UK should get proportional representation in Scotland's referendum. It affects us in the rest of the UK as much as it affects Scotland's residents. Scottish people live all over the UK and across the globe. Why should so few decide the fate of so many.

This is a really good point, how much will it weaken our GDP without Scotland in the union?

[Crimson Dynamo]

This is a really good point, how much will it weaken our GDP without Scotland in the union?

without euro friendly scotlands millions of votes, how will the 2017 euro referendum swing towards getting out of europe?

[joeysteele]

without euro friendly scotlands millions of votes, how will the 2017 euro referendum swing towards getting out of europe?

There will nver be one LT, even if David Cameron and his nasty party won the 2015 election, he will not be able to deliver a referendum,no matter what he says in the election.

He will find a way to wriggle out of it and unless he gets an overall majority of at least 90, he will be able to blame a likely rebellion in his own party and say he hasn't the arithmetic to get a referendum bill through.

This is one PM that in my view can never be trusted with referenda as to the EU or even that his word will ever mean anything either as to one.

[michael21]

CfsjJQrQ3-I&list=UUHeuoBGZ-zlu0Qe_-GEly7g


Just Recorded this



Love the BBC Scotland Sign in the background
you get it more clear towards the end.

aristatibb7 :facepalm:

[jaxie]

I have to say the one thing that irritates me a bit about the whole referendum is that should a yes vote go ahead then the divorce will greatly impact the other countries in the union in many ways social, economic, defense, not to mention the possibility of having to have a passport to go to Scotland, but none of us get a say? That seems incredibly unfair to me.

[Beastie]

They will definitely be staying.

[Angelika]

The sensible option is to stay.

[Anaesthesia]

To fully resolve / prepare for all the issues that would arise from devolution it would take at least 10 years. Not saying I wouldn't support an independent Scotland, I just think the sensible vote, right now, would be a resounding NO.

[Livia]

To fully resolve / prepare for all the issues that would arise from devolution it would take at least 10 years. Not saying I wouldn't support an independent Scotland, I just think the sensible vote, right now, would be a resounding NO.

I agree with that.

[arista]

3nMDIYEX1PE&list=UUHeuoBGZ-zlu0Qe_-GEly7g

Brian Cox
making great points
I took this from BBC This week
which I recorded on thursday.

[jaxie]

Of course it affects England but England forced Scotland to become part of the UK in the first place so it should be Scotlands choice now whether they want to stay or not, don't you think?
That's not really true. It all began in 1603 when Elizabeth 1 died. The heir to her throne was James, King of Scotland, her cousin, who then became James 1 of Scotland and England. The union came about initially in the form of treaties uniting the countries under one crown. No one was forced, I imagine James was thrilled to bits with his shiny new crown!

The rest of the union, England, Wales and Northern Ireland should get a say in the vote because like any divorce we will all be affected by the break up and it's going to be expensive and complex. I think it's far less about losing the oil which is depleting anyway and far more about the expense and the logistics of the break up for the rest of the union as to why many would prefer Scotland to stay.

[Toy Soldier]

I have to say the one thing that irritates me a bit about the whole referendum is that should a yes vote go ahead then the divorce will greatly impact the other countries in the union in many ways social, economic, defense, not to mention the possibility of having to have a passport to go to Scotland, but none of us get a say? That seems incredibly unfair to me.

To suggest that a smaller nation wishing to split from a (much) larger one should be able to be forced to stay at the whim of said larger nation, for their own benefit, sounds a whole lot like tyranny. I'm not saying that Scotland will vote for independence, the truth is it's unlikely, but in these scenarios the decision MUST always be in the hands of smaller separating group. They must decide to stay, or to leave. To say that the more powerful entity should be able to force the union to remain is terrifying and a million miles from anything resembling democracy. Voters are outnumbered 10/1 by the larger nation.

I mean, would you say the same of EU membership? Let's say the government of the UK and 80% of the population (50+ million) want to leave the European Union... but oh wait, the other 445 million people in Europe get to vote, too, and having the UK in Europe is good For Europe so... tough?

[bots]

I have to say the one thing that irritates me a bit about the whole referendum is that should a yes vote go ahead then the divorce will greatly impact the other countries in the union in many ways social, economic, defense, not to mention the possibility of having to have a passport to go to Scotland, but none of us get a say? That seems incredibly unfair to me.

Not wishing to stir it too much but .....

If the UK government had acknowledged and rewarded Scotland appropriately for the contribution that it brings to the union, we wouldn't be in this situation now. Whether right or wrong, the perception for many, many years amongst Scots has been that Scotland has been the poor cousin and that the UK is not inclusive enough of the people that it represents.

As a Scot living in England, I would love to have had a vote, after all it is my country that is affected. But, I'm not living there, that was my choice, it should be up to the people actually living in Scotland that choose its future direction.

[jaxie]

To suggest that a smaller nation wishing to split from a (much) larger one should be able to be forced to stay at the whim of said larger nation, for their own benefit, sounds a whole lot like tyranny. I'm not saying that Scotland will vote for independence, the truth is it's unlikely, but in these scenarios the decision MUST always be in the hands of smaller separating group. They must decide to stay, or to leave. To say that the more powerful entity should be able to force the union to remain is terrifying and a million miles from anything resembling democracy. Voters are outnumbered 10/1 by the larger nation.

I mean, would you say the same of EU membership? Let's say the government of the UK and 80% of the population (50+ million) want to leave the European Union... but oh wait, the other 445 million people in Europe get to vote, too, and having the UK in Europe is good For Europe so... tough?

But that is not what I said at all is it?

What I said was that my future and many others is also being decided and I find it unfair that I have no say at all whatsoever. You have no way of knowing that the union would be 'forced' if the rest of the UK had a vote because we don't get a say, there is no way to know how we would vote. Of course the people of Scotland have the right to decide their own future but you can't say the rest of us don't have some rights when things effect us either. How would the people of Scotland feel if we all had a vote about something that dramatically changed their country and left them out?

[joeysteele]

Not wishing to stir it too much but .....

If the UK government had acknowledged and rewarded Scotland appropriately for the contribution that it brings to the union, we wouldn't be in this situation now. Whether right or wrong, the perception for many, many years amongst Scots has been that Scotland has been the poor cousin and that the UK is not inclusive enough of the people that it represents.

As a Scot living in England, I would love to have had a vote, after all it is my country that is affected. But, I'm not living there, that was my choice, it should be up to the people actually living in Scotland that choose its future direction.

Spot on. If there is a 'no' vote, I really hope the main parties of Westminster have at the very least learned that and take that on board too and stop using Scotland as a dumping ground and a experiment as to really unpleasant social policies too.

[Kizzy]

Not wishing to stir it too much but .....

If the UK government had acknowledged and rewarded Scotland appropriately for the contribution that it brings to the union, we wouldn't be in this situation now. Whether right or wrong, the perception for many, many years amongst Scots has been that Scotland has been the poor cousin and that the UK is not inclusive enough of the people that it represents.

As a Scot living in England, I would love to have had a vote, after all it is my country that is affected. But, I'm not living there, that was my choice, it should be up to the people actually living in Scotland that choose its future direction.

There are large pockets of social disadvantage across the union, the British government has mismanaged recent sell offs that could have been used to fund projects to improve these... Instead the welfare reforms put the faces of those already down due to unemployment or incapacity into the dirt, and stood on them.
Am I surprised the union is fragmenting? No.
However do I think that either will function effectively independently? No.

It'll be like separating siamese twins with a machete.

[Josy]

Everyone I know are taking their own pens with them to the polling stations because they are insisting pencils are used for the votes, the majority isn't willing to take a chance of having their votes tampered with, which basically says neither side is trusted.

They may even reject votes done in pen.

[jaxie]

Everyone I know are taking their own pens with them to the polling stations because they are insisting pencils are used for the votes, the majority isn't willing to take a chance of having their votes tampered with, which basically says neither side is trusted.

They may even reject votes done in pen.

The idea of that mistrust makes me sad.

[Alf]

.Please don't go! vote no!

Don't leave us, stay British.

Don't be selfish, think of the future, think of your children and your childrens children.

As Paul McCartney once said "Mull of Kintyre" (sorry not that one)
He said "We all stand together"

[Toy Soldier]

.Please don't go! vote no!

Don't leave us, stay British.

Don't be selfish, think of the future, think of your children and your childrens children.

As Paul McCartney once said "Mull of Kintyre" (sorry not that one)
He said "We all stand together"

To be honest, from what I've heard, it's "Yes" voters that are thinking more about what's better for the country long-term (even looking to a times when we'll all be long dead) whereas "No" voters are thinking more about their own comfort and security in the immediate future...

[Kizzy]

To be honest, from what I've heard, it's "Yes" voters that are thinking more about what's better for the country long-term (even looking to a times when we'll all be long dead) whereas "No" voters are thinking more about their own comfort and security in the immediate future...

The yes campaign is all about getting free of the conservative stranglehold, that is a given next year I would have thought?

[Scarlett.]

I think it's rather insane that the 'Yes' campaigners are calling their fellow countrymen 'Traitors' for not sharing the same view as them, I'm kind of worried what the reaction will be if the outcome is 'No'.

[Kizzy]

I'm more worried about what they will do if it is a yes! Have you seen 'The wicker man'? I'm guessing it'll be something like that, all the no supporters wheeled to Gretna and set alight :laugh:

[arista]

[Jeremy Paxman: Scandal of Britons having no say in Scottish referendum
Ex-Newsnight presenter criticises that many in the United Kingdom are banned from voting on its future]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/14/jeremy-paxman-scottish-independence-scandal-britons-no-vote-referendum



No Pax
the English would vote Yes for the Scottish Freedom

[Kizzy]

[Jeremy Paxman: Scandal of Britons having no say in Scottish referendum
Ex-Newsnight presenter criticises that many in the United Kingdom are banned from voting on its future]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/14/jeremy-paxman-scottish-independence-scandal-britons-no-vote-referendum



No Pax
the English would vote Yes for the Scottish Freedom

I wouldn't, I like Scotland and I don't like that Salmon guy... there's something fishy about him ;)

[arista]

I wouldn't, I like Scotland and I don't like that Salmon guy... there's something fishy about him ;)



Yes but more millions in England
would vote Yes
than no

[Kizzy]

Yes but more millions in England
would vote Yes
than no

Why.... logically where is the benefit for the us to cast Scotland adrift?

[Beso]

here is an idea Scotland.....all the other countries who voted for independence became independent, you should be ashamed to call yourself Scottish if it is a no vote, you will be the laughing stock of the world if you become the first nation to resist independence when given the vote...heard all of this loads of times, it makes me laugh cause they are basically telling you that to become independent you have to follow what everyone else does.

[Beso]

The yes campaign is all about getting free of the conservative stranglehold, that is a given next year I would have thought?

maybe the slimy wee ****e should go down England and campaign to get more votes for his ****ty little party instead of going all out to rip a strong unit apart.

[Josy]

So sad to see the abuse each side are giving out to each other in comments under articles and stuff now, so much for Salmond's peaceful campaign, the insults I have seen flung around is actually sickening, regardless of what happens on Thursday we still have to live together and the country will never be the same again.

[arista]

So sad to see the abuse each side are giving out to each other in comments under articles and stuff now, so much for Salmond's peaceful campaign, the insults I have seen flung around is actually sickening, regardless of what happens on Thursday we still have to live together and the country will never be the same again.


You can live with us
but have freedom from Westminster.




The PM up there again Live on all news
is enough for another thousand to vote Yes.

[jaxie]

So sad to see the abuse each side are giving out to each other in comments under articles and stuff now, so much for Salmond's peaceful campaign, the insults I have seen flung around is actually sickening, regardless of what happens on Thursday we still have to live together and the country will never be the same again.

It is sad and particularly that I had felt we were good neighbours with the other union countries, part of the same whole, but it feels that was all a sham now and there is a lot more hatred than I ever imagined.

I have a feeling that it will be a yes vote and will be very close like 51%. I don't think it is the right thing really for any of us to fragment rather than sticking together but that is my feeling. I hope I'm wrong though!

[joeysteele]

It won't have gone down that well I guess with the Scots overall I doubt.
However I must be feeling ill at the minute as I thought David Cameron made a really strong and valid speech today,I was impressed.

[Toy Soldier]

The yes campaign is all about getting free of the conservative stranglehold, that is a given next year I would have thought?

Well yes, until next time. Scotland was torn to shreds by Thatcher and the end of Thatcherism was a given, and yet here we are again... living with a number of policies that Thatcher herself shied away from in the 80's. Labour is likely to come into power right on top of the latest Tory economic illusion, which will then pop spectacularly... Tories then blame Labour because they were in power when this happened... and so the pendulum swings back to them only with even more reasoning and ammunition to justify horrendous political decisions.

[Toy Soldier]

So sad to see the abuse each side are giving out to each other in comments under articles and stuff now, so much for Salmond's peaceful campaign, the insults I have seen flung around is actually sickening, regardless of what happens on Thursday we still have to live together and the country will never be the same again.

It's inevitable in these final days with emotions running high, it'll settle down in time no matter which way the vote goes. If anything, I think at the very least, the political eyes of the whole of Scotland are currently WIDE open. And that can only ever be a good thing. If the rest of the UK could follow suit then we would ALL be better off, whether together or apart. We've all been far too comfortable, sleepwalking through decades of lies and rhetoric.

[lostalex]

Scotland should be like the EU, and just hold a referendum every year until they get the YES result they want.

Isn't that what the EU did to many countries on the Lisbon treaty? especially Ireland. and speaking of Ireland, they should do the same, hold a referendum for joining the rest of the island every year.

[Toy Soldier]

Scotland should be like the EU, and just hold a referendum every year until they get the YES result they want.

Isn't that what the EU did to many countries on the Lisbon treaty?

Scotland only got to hold this one because Westminster "allowed it" (which completely baffled China, apparently :joker: ). Therein lies part of the reason that Scotland should be independent, of course.

[lostalex]

Scotland only got to hold this one because Westminster "allowed it" (which completely baffled China, apparently :joker: ). Therein lies part of the reason that Scotland should be independent, of course.

wait, what? what does China have to do with it? is that a reference to Taiwan/Hong Kong/Tibet?

[lostalex]

As an American I wish Texas and the rest of the south would have such a referendum and leave the US.

The civil war was worth it because we could free the slaves, but now i see no reason to keep the south at all. They should form their own ****ed up confederation however they like, and we should put an economic blockade on them just like Cuba.

[Kizzy]

Well yes, until next time. Scotland was torn to shreds by Thatcher and the end of Thatcherism was a given, and yet here we are again... living with a number of policies that Thatcher herself shied away from in the 80's. Labour is likely to come into power right on top of the latest Tory economic illusion, which will then pop spectacularly... Tories then blame Labour because they were in power when this happened... and so the pendulum swings back to them only with even more reasoning and ammunition to justify horrendous political decisions.

That's not a given, we don't have a crystal ball and what ifs are not a good enough basis to cut away from the union.

[joeysteele]

I see there is a signed pledge of extra powers from all 3 main party leaders today if Scotland votes 'no'.

Powers that are not yet agreed on, excpet in that more powers should be given to Scotland.
That is actually quite insulting to the Scots,not to be able to detail in full exactly what and when will be transferred to them.

Also I would think near all voters should know and remember how meaningless signed pledges are from Nick Clegg particularly.