Crimewatch,The McCanns

[chuff me dizzy]

Trolling the parents of an abducted infant is pretty ******ing low.

Please post proof of abduction ,good luck with that as there is none

[Cherie]

Two things, isn't Gerry holding his sleeping son coming off the aircraft like anyone else would :conf: if it was a unique hold I could understand but its just the way most people would carry a sleeping child.

That business with the Payne guy is very disturbing, why on earth would that woman continue to holiday with someone she suspected, and have we moved on now from Madeline being involved in some tragic accident while the McCanns were at dinner and it was covered up, or Gerry and his pals were part of a paedophile ring?

and why did the dogs pick the scent of death up on Kates clothes but not Gerry's if he carried the allegedly dead Madeline away from the apartment and would her body not just wash up on the shore if she was dumped in the sea, he would have to wade out some distance to have any chance of her being carried away with the tide.

[thesheriff443]

Please post proof of abduction ,good luck with that as there is none

there is the same amount of proof in what you think happened.

[Marsh.]

So this thread is for everyone apart from me ? I think its your neck that needs winding sunbeam

The thread is open for everyone, coming in and being rude to every poster going for daring to question your posts is uncalled for.

[Jesus.]

Please post proof of abduction ,good luck with that as there is none

So you must have access to the body then, right?I presume you know exactly where it is, what the sequence of events leading up to, during, and after, her murder by parents is. You must have evidence for this, because otherwise what you have is nothing more than circumstantial.

Where did you study criminology or law? Let me guess - Harvard?

[Braden]

Everytime i watch Gerry Mccan talking about her, i see a slight smirk on his face...
Plus he looks like those e-fits. I mean this guy has to be the one...
BUT thing is... Friends of the parents have said Gerry never left the tapas resturant apart from once.,, and as we know Madeline was sleeping at that time... So i dunno... Im fifty fifty.

I thought that he sounded very rehearsed and robotic in his interview from last night.

But I don't know whether that's because he's had to recount the story so many times.

[Marsh.]

I thought that he sounded very rehearsed and robotic in his interview from last night.

But I don't know whether that's because he's had to recount the story so many times.

Well they're very likely to have prepared before a live TV interview, only natural.

[chuff me dizzy]

The thread is open for everyone, coming in and being rude to every poster going for daring to question your posts is uncalled for.

I came in and stated FACTS ,not my ideas or dreams ,I didnt come on a football thread talking about the offside trap ( I know nothing about that ) I came on a thread I clearly know a lot more than others do

[Vicky.]

Two things, isn't Gerry holding his sleeping son coming off the aircraft like anyone else would :conf: if it was a unique hold I could understand but its just the way most people would carry a sleeping child.


Well the guy who we are all meant to take notice of now seems to think so.

Looks odd to me. Halving the arms strapped down like that :shrug:

Apparently it was the way he had his head tilted too or something. I'm not too sure that the eureka moment was because of how he held the child tbh, more..a deja vu thing. Like, I have seen this before. then it all clicks.

Anyway I am backing out of the thread again now because I feel I have made my views clear and it just seems to be getting a bit silly now.

Have fun :p

[Cherie]

I came in and stated FACTS ,not my ideas or dreams ,I didnt come on a football thread talking about the offside trap ( I know nothing about that ) I came on a thread I clearly know a lot more than others do

So you are saying police are letting the McCanns get away with murder? and they are doing this because?

[Marsh.]

I came in and stated FACTS ,not my ideas or dreams ,I didnt come on a football thread talking about the offside trap ( I know nothing about that ) I came on a thread I clearly know a lot more than others do

Which, like I said, is no reason to patronise other posters about.

Call Scotland Yard everyone, they've wasted six years. All they had to do was get TiBB's Chuff me dizzy on the case, she solved it with her experience of holidaying in Portugal, youtube videos, twitter trolling and general obnoxious attitude.

:worship:

[chuff me dizzy]

I thought that he sounded very rehearsed and robotic in his interview from last night.

But I don't know whether that's because he's had to recount the story so many times.

We have had a body language expert on one of our groups a couple of years ago and he was baffled how they still walk free, IF I was an optimist ( which Im not) I would hope that Scotland Yard had spent a few £s of the £6m (£6m while pensioners will stand in food banks lines to eat this winter) they have thrown at Mcs into hiring one to watch the show as they have trapped others this way (Tracey Andrews for one) but these are the Golden McCanns so Im not building my hopes up

[Z]

I came in and stated FACTS ,not my ideas or dreams ,I didnt come on a football thread talking about the offside trap ( I know nothing about that ) I came on a thread I clearly know a lot more than others do

But you told people not to comment on things they know nothing about... that's very confrontational. We've all been reminded of this case because of the program last night. It's great that you are well informed about the case and your opinions are valued in here because you say you've spent the last 6 years researching it; but you can't just tell everyone else to shut up because they don't know as much as you... this is the debates and news forum.

[chuff me dizzy]

But you told people not to comment on things they know nothing about... that's very confrontational. We've all been reminded of this case because of the program last night. It's great that you are well informed about the case and your opinions are valued in here because you say you've spent the last 6 years researching it; but you can't just tell everyone else to shut up because they don't know as much as you... this is the debates and news forum.

Because this case is something I know a lot about ,and if you care to look back certain posters dived straight on my back when I arrived ,I have NEVER told anyone to shut up, nor would I

[Cherie]

Well the guy who we are all meant to take notice of now seems to think so.

Looks odd to me. Halving the arms strapped down like that :shrug:

Apparently it was the way he had his head tilted too or something. I'm not too sure that the eureka moment was because of how he held the child tbh, more..a deja vu thing. Like, I have seen this before. then it all clicks.

Anyway I am backing out of the thread again now because I feel I have made my views clear and it just seems to be getting a bit silly now.

Have fun :p


Agreed.

[Vanessa]

I think it was an accidental death and it has been covered up. I've thought this since the beginning.

[AnnieK]

The simple facts are there is no way anyone can know the truth for certain until either a body is found with concrete evidence of who killed her, or Maddie turns up or a confession is made. Everything else surely is circumstantial and speculative surely?

[chuff me dizzy]

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html

For anyone whos interested this is the original timeline written on maddie sticker/colouring book BEFORE they rang the police (as you do )

[Marsh.]

Oh dear another "hook line sinker victim ":sleep: in 2007 when McCanns screamed "abduction"they started a snowball rolling which Im sure they thought would have stopped by now, how wrong they were ,They failed to realise this is the age of the internet, things cannot get brushed under the carpet like it did in the good old days the only thing that can stop it now is the thing they dread the most ,the TRUTH please dont comments on things you know nothing about

Your first response to my question.

I didn't jump on anyone's back.

[Vanessa]

The simple facts are there is no way anyone can know the truth for certain until either a body is found with concrete evidence of who killed her, or Maddie turns up or a confession is made. Everything else surely is circumstantial and speculative surely?

Yes, of course. It's just a feeling i've always had on this case. There's something not quite right.

[the truth]

they actually admitted theyd left the kids like that abroad for years....social services should have been involved years ago

[the truth]

was the door open? was the window open? the show was rubbish it didn't even clarify these simple facts

[Kazanne]

was the door open? was the window open? the show was rubbish it didn't even clarify these simple facts

The patio doors were left open weren't they?

[the truth]

The patio doors were left open weren't they?

what kind of moron leaves patio doors open when 3 kids under 4 are in there alone in a foreign country? These are parents and doctors too? morons

[Marsh.]

was the door open? was the window open? the show was rubbish it didn't even clarify these simple facts

Yes, they did clarify. The patio doors weren't locked.

[the truth]

Yes, they did clarify. The patio doors weren't locked.

theyre idiots. theyd been doing this for years. also who checked the flat half an hour earlier? did they continue to leave the remaining kids in the room with unlocked doors after the maddie disappearance?

[Marsh.]

theyre idiots. theyd been doing this for years. also who checked the flat half an hour earlier? did they continue to leave the remaining kids in the room with unlocked doors after the maddie disappearance?

Half an hour before was a friend who checked on them. Then Kate found her missing and then ran outside to shout "They've taken her".

[Kizzy]

'They've taken her' is an odd thing to shout or is it me?

[Marsh.]

'They've taken her' is an odd thing to shout or is it me?

Very odd. But the entire circumstances of the whole night gives me chills.

[Jesus.]

They are now urgently looking for this man.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo149/gpack_2008/efit.jpg

[Nedusa]

They are now urgently looking for this man.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo149/gpack_2008/efit.jpg

That's a man......????

[Kazanne]

That's a man......????

That's what I thought,'he' has very soft features for a man.

[MTVN]

I'm not so much influenced by that, but more by my experiences of holiday resort towns whereby the area around the nice hotels is a paradise but the rest of the town is a slum and everyone relies totally on the tourism industry for their livelihood - is it like that or is it generally just a nice town? I don't think the police force are useless though, I think they gave the case more attention than it deserved and did their job properly.

Yeah I've not been to Prai da luz specifically but my parents do have a holiday apartment in the Algarve and my Uncle used to live out there working in development so I've been out there a few times, it's not riddled with poverty exactly but it is obvious as is the divide between holidaymakers/ex pats and the locals

I know the thread's move on a bit since but re the bungled burglary theory, I wasn't thinking of like professional/career criminals who plan things really well with getaway cars and the like, more likely just petty thieves or maybe even homeless people to whom luxury holiday resorts are an obvious target, they might not even have been looking to steal anything big, just something small that the family might not even care that much about but that they could pawn for a few euro or something like that

Admittedly it's quite unlikely, but this whole case is quite unlikely really

[Kizzy]

The reconstruction showed gerry locking the front door I thought, what's the point of locking one door and leaving another open?

[GypsyGoth]

They are now urgently looking for this man.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo149/gpack_2008/efit.jpg

That's an efit of Zee :laugh2:

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87613&page=4

[MTVN]

:joker:

[Jamesy]

I always wonder what would have happened to The McCanns if this had happened in the UK. What they did pretty much was child neglect (and stupidity), in the UK that would be rather serious and they would have been at fault straight away, possibly even had charges against them. I wonder if the press would have still made them out as the victims (which I know they are in a way, I'm looking at the bigger picture though) if they had done anything like that on a holiday in the UK.

I do not think The McCanns were involved into the disappearance of their child (although I do agree with others that this case doesn't seem right), although I do think as the years have gone on they have used Madeleine's disappearance as a tool to make money from it. Just look at how public they have been over the years. Even now with them back in the limelight!

They've made some serious money over the years and while I do have empathy for them losing their daughter, I find it quite uncomfortable that they have dragged it on in the public light and have/are potentially only staying in the limelight in order to rake in money for themselves.

A strange thought I know, but for me personally, something is not right with them. They act very strangely and I just don't buy it.

(I know I haven't followed the current of the topic but I just wanted to share my views :P)

[joeysteele]

I always wonder what would have happened to The McCanns if this had happened in the UK. What they did pretty much was child neglect (and stupidity), in the UK that would be rather serious and they would have been at fault straight away, possibly even had charges against them. I wonder if the press would have still made them out as the victims (which I know they are in a way, I'm looking at the bigger picture though) if they had done anything like that on a holiday in the UK.

I do not think The McCanns were involved into the disappearance of their child (although I do agree with others that this case doesn't seem right), although I do think as the years have gone on they have used Madeleine's disappearance as a tool to make money from it. Just look at how public they have been over the years. Even now with them back in the limelight!

They've made some serious money over the years and while I do have empathy for them losing their daughter, I find it quite uncomfortable that they have dragged it on in the public light and have/are potentially only staying in the limelight in order to rake in money for themselves.

A strange thought I know, but for me personally, something is not right with them. They act very strangely and I just don't buy it.

(I know I haven't followed the current of the topic but I just wanted to share my views :P)

I relate strongly to your thinking and feelings as to this too. you summed up much of how I feel as to it.
Really interesting and thought provoking post.

[Marsh.]

The reconstruction showed gerry locking the front door I thought, what's the point of locking one door and leaving another open?

Rather bizarre. But yeah, it showed them close the curtains around the patio and then just slide the door shut with no lock.

Just the fact that the apartment was easily accessible from the street, completely out of view of the Tapas bar would scare me enough.

[Kizzy]

Yep, totally nuts... :conf:

[the truth]

didn't they spend the first few hours after shed disappeared sitting in the apartment?

[the truth]

Rather bizarre. But yeah, it showed them close the curtains around the patio and then just slide the door shut with no lock.

Just the fact that the apartment was easily accessible from the street, completely out of view of the Tapas bar would scare me enough.

why didn't they lock the patio doors? why has no one asked them this on crimewatch?

It feels as though they decided to get a massive public campaign going so no one could dare question them.

[Kizzy]

Yes, neither joined in the search.

[Z]

:suspect:

[the truth]

I thought the whole show was pathetic...It was hardly columbo....trying to be all artsy fartsy as always and failing hopelessly to deliver the specific information and to ask the most pertinent questions i.e. why did you leave the door open>? why did you leave the kids? how many times have you done this before and since her disappearance? do your friends all continue to do this? were their doors unlocked too? where has all the money raised gone? did you search immediately for maddie? if not, why not? why did you think going to see the Pope or calling beckham was a better move than working with detectives to find her? etc

[Nedusa]

This Crimewatch thing has been sat on for 6 months ,it has only been broadcast as try to cover up a libel case ongoing in Lisbon court where they are suing Goncalo Amaral the portuguese police Chief for libel in his book, a book which is based solely on the official police files both Uk and Pj ,The Mcs have tried to have the book banned and have lost 2 cases against him ,they are losing this one too, and they know if they do lose it ,it will prove whats been known for 6 years by people who care to look, that the police files hold the truth

Perhaps Chuff's post above has more than a ring of truth about it ??

Reading all the posts from this thread there are more than a few areas where the official story does not add up and the behaviour of the McCanns does seem strange in many instances.

Also the way this whole investigation has been undertaken by all police forces together with the way the press have been used again raises many questions.

I like most people long for the day when the truth is finally revealed about the Maddie McCann story, but I feel that day is still some way off...!!!

[user104658]

.

I like most people long for the day when the truth is finally revealed about the Maddie McCann story, but I feel that day is still some way off...!!!

I don't think it ever will be. It seems fairly obvious that the Portuguese police know, or are fairly sure, of what happened to Maddie, that her parents know she is dead and disposed of her body. Buy there has been a massive effort to bury that conclusion by powerful figures, including the police chief losing his job, and being threatened with libel suits several times.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that a hell of a lot of money and power is being pumped into the effort to NOT solve this case. Why? I really have no idea. At this point it could simply be because the implications of the truth being revealed are too wide-spread and "embarrassing" for both governments and for Scotland Yard.

[thesheriff443]

I don't think it ever will be. It seems fairly obvious that the Portuguese police know, or are fairly sure, of what happened to Maddie, that her parents know she is dead and disposed of her body. Buy there has been a massive effort to bury that conclusion by powerful figures, including the police chief losing his job, and being threatened with libel suits several times.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that a hell of a lot of money and power is being pumped into the effort to NOT solve this case. Why? I really have no idea. At this point it could simply be because the implications of the truth being revealed are too wide-spread and "embarrassing" for both governments and for Scotland Yard.

talk about stretching it!
government's hiding the truth:conf:

we are talking about a missing girl presumed dead, you are getting carried away with this.

[user104658]

http://www.cwporter.com/mccann.htm

Absolutely gargantuan read, but for anyone who is interested, almost everything that has been buried and hushed up through libel cases is noted here. SIXTY reasons to doubt that she was ever abducted. And theyre not bullet points, each of the 60 reasons is several paragraphs long, and backed up with supporting information.

[Cherie]

Really:conf: so two people are getting away with not only murder, but also fraud, conning the public and wasting 5 million on a new investigation and the police are covering it up due to embarrassment!

[Jesus.]

Really:conf: so two people are getting away with not only murder, but also fraud, conning the public and wasting 5 million on a new investigation and the police are covering it up due to embarrassment!

I think it was JFK after he'd been hiding on the moon with Elvis for decades. I think it's pretty obvious that's the real cover up here.

[user104658]

Really:conf: so two people are getting away with not only murder, but also fraud, conning the public and wasting 5 million on a new investigation and the police are covering it up due to embarrassment!

Not murder, an accidental death, and when I say "embarrassment" I don't mean red-faces, I mean it would have drastic implications, especially as so much time has passed that it's highly unlikely that anything would EVER stick in a trial. There's no body, and the evidence is circumstantial but compelling. The evidence supporting an abduction, is zero. Absolutely zip.

[Cherie]

Not murder, an accidental death, and when I say "embarrassment" I don't mean red-faces, I mean it would have drastic implications, especially as so much time has passed that it's highly unlikely that anything would EVER stick in a trial. There's no body, and the evidence is circumstantial but compelling. The evidence supporting an abduction, is zero. Absolutely zip.

I still don't get why they would pump so much more money into it now. I don't deny there are inconsistencies and some very strange things have gone on but I can't see the value in a cover up. I can see the value in letting it drop and letting the McCanns foot the bill for any further investigation but not a cover up.

[Niamh.]

Yeah but if you're a worst-case-scenario person like I am (and I believe Kate McCann is too) then your mind jumps to the worst possible conclusion... and unfortunately in this case, she was right to think so. If you have unscrupulous men looking to kidnap toddlers to sell into the sex trade, they're not going to take babies, they're going to take toddlers. I'm of the opinion that the people who took her are not the people who have her right now, I believe they were just middle men who go out and do the dirty work and then sell the victims onto someone. It's quite possible they kidnapped her, took her to the beach and someone in a boat sped off to an unknown location. If the kids were sedated, as has been suggested in this thread (there was no mention of that in the Crimewatch report that I noticed but I'm assuming that it's been reported somewhere else?) then Madeleine wouldn't have even put up a struggle, she could well have been asleep the entire time if she'd been drugged by her parents.

Just a combination of sloppy negligent parenting and awful, tragic coincidence.

Still though straight after it happened she couldn't possibly know if she had been taken or if she wondered off looking for her parents or had an accident. I think most people would have shouted first off Maddie is gone or maddie is missing, it was a bit premature to conclude that she'd been taken imo

[user104658]

Exactly, she was upset the night before and a door was left unlocked. Yes, you would panic, but the first thought would be "she's gone off looking for us". And like I said there was never any further evidence of an abduction. It's perfectly feasible that she DID wander off and got into some sort of accident and has simply never been found. But they screamed "abduction" straight away and have never wavered from that, despite there being absolutely no evidence of an abduction.

[Vanessa]

They are now urgently looking for this man.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo149/gpack_2008/efit.jpg

That looks like a woman. :suspect:

[Kazanne]

I really don't think she was abducted either.

[Vanessa]

I never thought that she could have wondered off. That is possible i suppose. :eek:

[Jesus.]

That looks like a woman. :suspect:

Could be a lesbian, I suppose?

[Vanessa]

Could be a lesbian, I suppose?

It just doesn't look like a man. Could be a woman with short hair.

[Jemal]

I she was to wander off she would of taken her teddy. As thats what kids tend to do...
Starting to think she got killed. Cause getting abducted for 7 years is abit meh without even being seen...
Thing is aswell if she did get killed in the room or Beach or whatever... There would of found MUCH more evidence or even a dead body on the beach..
Cause i mean they did search the bloody resort from top to bottom.

Ah this is just mind exhausting..

[Jesus.]

It just doesn't look like a man. Could be a woman with short hair.

Yeah - a lesbian.

[Jemal]

LMFAO what if it was a woman? Who took madeline...
Oh god it can't be..

[Z]

Could be a lesbian, I suppose?

I hate you :suspect:

[Jesus.]

I hate you :suspect:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc2dr4FR5U1r79k9c.gif

[Z]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc2dr4FR5U1r79k9c.gif

My girlish good looks and good name have been besmirched! Besmirched!!! :joker:

[AnnieK]

:laugh: Aw Greg...you're very pretty, Jesus is just jealous

[Kazanne]

What happened to Clarence Mitchell?

[Niall]

Although I disagree with a lot of people in this thread about the actions of the McCanns (what they did may have been selfish, but not necessarily neglectful), I don't understand why they never ate with the children at that restaurant earlier on in the evening - especially after what Madeleine said on the morning of her abduction. That's the only thing that strikes me as a bit odd.

[AnnieK]

Leaving your children whilst you go out to eat and drink is selfish, leaving your children after they have told you they woke up distressed, scared and alone is neglectful in my opinion. Having read the article that the children were in kids club for 5 hours a day and then left alone at night it begs the question why even take the children on holiday if you didn't want to spend any time with them

[Niamh.]

Although I disagree with a lot of people in this thread about the actions of the McCanns (what they did may have been selfish, but not necessarily neglectful), I don't understand why they never ate with the children at that restaurant earlier on in the evening - especially after what Madeleine said on the morning of her abduction. That's the only thing that strikes me as a bit odd.

Yeah, I thought that's what everyone did when they went abroad with their kids, you always see restaurants full of kids over there, we've done it ourselves with our own kids and the Spanish are very kid friendly, there wouldn't be a problem with that.

I disagree though that leaving two 2 year olds and a 3 year old in an unlocked apartment alone isn't neglectful though, jeez what if there was a fire? Or one of them wandered out onto a road or out and fell in the pool? It's unbelievably neglectful imo

[Kazanne]

Leaving your children whilst you go out to eat and drink is selfish, leaving your children after they have told you they woke up distressed, scared and alone is neglectful in my opinion. Having read the article that the children were in kids club for 5 hours a day and then left alone at night it begs the question why even take the children on holiday if you didn't want to spend any time with them

This^

[Ammi]

..just by the by..they won't allow any threads/opinions on Madeleine's disappearance or the case on DS....

[AnnieK]

..just by the by..they won't allow any threads/opinions on Madeleine's disappearance or the case on DS....

Mmm wonder why that is?

[MTVN]

Suppose it's because people have been convicted for libel or threatened with legal actions in the past for accusing the McCann's of playing a part in it

[thesheriff443]

in a way this thread should be closed, out of respect for that little girl.
we are all just chewing the fat!

[Niamh.]

How is it out of respect for Maddie Sheriff? All I've seen from anyone on here (no matter what they believe) is concern for her and wanting to find out what happened to her

[Vanessa]

We don't even know what happened for sure. She could still be alive.

[AnnieK]

How is it out of respect for Maddie Sheriff? All I've seen from anyone on here (no matter what they believe) is concern for her and wanting to find out what happened to her

I agree, no matter which account of events people believe, everyone wants the same end result, for Maddie to be either found alive or at least if she has died then at least to have the proper burial and memorial she deserves - not this load of what ifs and speculation. Her parents are the ones who want her name remembered so I don't think talking about her is disrespectful to her.

[Nedusa]

in a way this thread should be closed, out of respect for that little girl.
we are all just chewing the fat!

No... I don't think so , freedom of speech is a fundamental right besides people talking about this case means people care and who knows out of all the thousands of conversations being held right now on this topic something new may transpire someone might remember something new or somebody, anything that could help shed some light on this sinister story..

So people should keep talking... Who knows one day !!!

[Vicky.]

http://www.cwporter.com/mccann.htm

Absolutely gargantuan read, but for anyone who is interested, almost everything that has been buried and hushed up through libel cases is noted here. SIXTY reasons to doubt that she was ever abducted. And theyre not bullet points, each of the 60 reasons is several paragraphs long, and backed up with supporting information.

That site is amazing..I know I aid I was leaving the thread but I just had to comment here. I am only up to the excuses about the cadaver dogs (I knew stupid excuses had been made, but not the excuses in full). I fail to see how any police officer could rule the parents out 100%. Especially with all of this.

[Vicky.]

in a way this thread should be closed, out of respect for that little girl.
we are all just chewing the fat!

We are not DS. We wont close threads just because a couple of posters find it a bit uncomfortable that others have different opinion to them.

I don't see how it is disrespectful to Madeleine for people to want the truth to come out about what actually happened.

[Vanessa]

I think she may have wondered off to look for her parents. It may explain why the window was open.

[Jesus.]

I think she may have wondered off to look for her parents. It may explain why the window was open.

I didn't start using windows as entrance points till I was at least 6 or 7. I'm sure she would have probably used the door.

[James]

..just by the by..they won't allow any threads/opinions on Madeleine's disappearance or the case on DS....

Suppose it's because people have been convicted for libel or threatened with legal actions in the past for accusing the McCann's of playing a part in it

Yeah, that is food for thought, really.

I'll say again that for the parents to be involved then the seven friends (all professional people of good standing) at the tapas bar all have to covering up the reason for the disappearance of a young child and covering up the disposal of her body. Also leading the police and courts (they've won a libel case) on a merry dance for years - a criminal offence in itself. Do people here really believe that these people would do something like that?

It doesn't make sense.

[Vanessa]

I didn't start using windows as entrance points till I was at least 6 or 7. I'm sure she would have probably used the door.

True.

[Vicky.]

The door was open so I would assume she would use that if wandering off. She was quite small,so it would have been really hard for her to climb up to the window and out.

The windows could only be opened from the inside though, so the abductor was pretty thick, considering they must have came in through a door. Why chose to leave through the window :laugh:

[Vanessa]

The door was open so I would assume she would use that if wandering off. She was quite small,so it would have been really hard for her to climb up to the window and out.

The windows could only be opened from the inside though, so the abductor was pretty thick, considering they must have came in through a door. Why chose to leave through the window :laugh:

Did the parents leave the window open or closed?

[Ammi]

Yeah, that is food for thought, really.

I'll say again that for the parents to be involved then the seven friends (all professional people of good standing) at the tapas bar all have to covering up the reason for the disappearance of a young child and covering up the disposal of her body. Also leading the police and courts (they've won a libel case) on a merry dance for years - a criminal offence in itself. Do people here really believe that these people would do something like that?

It doesn't make sense.

..that's the main part that always made it unbelievable to me because I can't see the McCanns being so 'controlled' as to cover anything up and definitely not the people with them assisting in that..they would have noticed something and they weren't even 'life long' friends or anything so why would they do that..it makes no sense....

[Vicky.]

Yeah, that is food for thought, really.

I'll say again that for the parents to be involved then the seven friends (all professional people of good standing) at the tapas bar all have to covering up the reason for the disappearance of a young child and covering up the disposal of her body. Also leading the police and courts (they've won a libel case) on a merry dance for years - a criminal offence in itself. Do people here really believe that these people would do something like that?

It doesn't make sense.

I don't see how? I doubt they would even know about it.. Most of the statements given by the Tapas 7 said that the kids were checked on every now and again (I believe that) and that Kate discovered Maddie was missing at 10pm. And thats pretty much it. With the exception of Jane Tanner who added the bit about the bloke she saw.

The 9.30 check by a friend didnt include Madeleine. He saw the twins and thats it. He assumed everything was fine as it was quiet.

So really since they left the apartment, the only person to 'see' Madeleine was Gerry at 9pm ish

When the alarm was raised, Gerry was all over the place (looking for her...). This is when the sighting of someone carrying a child occurred.

[chuff me dizzy]

I think she may have wondered off to look for her parents. It may explain why the window was open.

The window wasnt open

[Vanessa]

The window wasnt open

Ah, ok. Then she must have used the door.

[chuff me dizzy]

The door was open so I would assume she would use that if wandering off. She was quite small,so it would have been really hard for her to climb up to the window and out.

The windows could only be opened from the inside though, so the abductor was pretty thick, considering they must have came in through a door. Why chose to leave through the window :laugh:

There was only one set of finger prints on the window and window sill and they were Kates

[chuff me dizzy]

Read here about the trip they took to Huelva in Spain ,the unaccounted for mileage and hours http://www.mccannfiles.com/id168.html

[Kazanne]

These links are eye openers that's for sure,I have found out more from these than has been in the news or press.Thankyou Chuff,I just hope we get to know one day.

[chuff me dizzy]

Your child goes"missing" do you help police in every way you can or do you hinder the police search ? Kate chose the latter ,the 48 police questions she refused to answer,the link to the questions below, then went on to call the fund they opened with 6 DAYS of Maddie demise( not expecting her back then ?) and had the cheek to call it "NO STONE UNTURNED" Of the £ms raised by pensioners and kids who sold their toys only 13% has been spent on actual search ,the rest has been used to pay for PR and media consultants to cover their backs ,it is now used to support"extended family" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html

[Jesus.]

Read here about the trip they took to Huelva in Spain ,the unaccounted for mileage and hours http://www.mccannfiles.com/id168.html

I couldn't find anything about extra mileage on there. So a trip 110 miles across a foreign country took longer than they expected and because they got lost, more miles?

Or maybe they decided to go and get breakfast on the way over?

So the McCanns were plastered in the news at that time, and they find only one witness who said they were there earlier? That's less than nothing really. The human brain fills in blanks. We don't know it's happening, and we generally don't realise but all of our brains do that, and it is why anecdotal evidence is the least convincing.

[chuff me dizzy]

I don't see how? I doubt they would even know about it.. Most of the statements given by the Tapas 7 said that the kids were checked on every now and again (I believe that) and that Kate discovered Maddie was missing at 10pm. And thats pretty much it. With the exception of Jane Tanner who added the bit about the bloke she saw.

The 9.30 check by a friend didnt include Madeleine. He saw the twins and thats it. He assumed everything was fine as it was quiet.

So really since they left the apartment, the only person to 'see' Madeleine was Gerry at 9pm ish

When the alarm was raised, Gerry was all over the place (looking for her...). This is when the sighting of someone carrying a child occurred.

Tanner statement has been ruled out

[Josy]

Yeah, that is food for thought, really.

I'll say again that for the parents to be involved then the seven friends (all professional people of good standing) at the tapas bar all have to covering up the reason for the disappearance of a young child and covering up the disposal of her body. Also leading the police and courts (they've won a libel case) on a merry dance for years - a criminal offence in itself. Do people here really believe that these people would do something like that?

It doesn't make sense.

They could be telling the truth that they are aware of though?

Doesn't necessarily mean that's what really happened.

On that McCann Files website it says that 3 of them asked to change their original statements.

[James]

Okay, Well I haven't looked into the evidence closely. I was just under the impression for the parents covering up an accident theory to have any logic the seven friends had to be lying? Can someone say how the timeline would work in that case - I don't really like visiting these conspiracy theory websites.

[Vicky.]

Okay, Well I haven't looked into the evidence closely. I was just under the impression for the parents covering up an accident theory to have any logic the seven friends had to be lying? Can someone say how the timeline would work in that case - I don't really like visiting these conspiracy theory websites.

The McCanns left at around 8.30. Gerry checked at around 9pm..apparently kids were all ok, he went to loo, had a chat with someone then went back to table (around 9.25). Oldfield checked kids at 9.30, but only saw twins, never thought to check Maddie was there. Quiet so assumed everything was fine. Kate checked kids at 10pm and realised Maddie was missing.

Gerry was only one to actually see Madeline between them leaving the apartment and Kate discovering she was gone.

[Niamh.]

The McCanns left at around 8.30. Gerry checked at around 9pm..apparently kids were all ok, he went to loo, had a chat with someone then went back to table (around 9.25). Oldfield checked kids at 9.30, but only saw twins, never thought to check Maddie was there. Quiet so assumed everything was fine. Kate checked kids at 10pm and realised Maddie was missing.

Gerry was only one to actually see Madeline between them leaving the apartment and Kate discovering she was gone.

And before they left for the restaurant when was the last time anyone saw Maddie besides Gerry and Kate?

[chuff me dizzy]

McCann did not even look for Maddie on night one ,and went to bed at 3 o,clock http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWCVSjIJk8&list=FLVUTYNosuGrvgvn5nkiY6fA

[chuff me dizzy]

They could be telling the truth that they are aware of though?

Doesn't necessarily mean that's what really happened.

On that McCann Files website it says that 3 of them asked to change their original statements.



The timeline they wrote BEFORE they rang the police had more crossings out than a dyslexics exam paper

[Vicky.]

And before they left for the restaurant when was the last time anyone saw Maddie besides Gerry and Kate?

From memory, I dont know. I *think* about 5 ish when she left the childcare facilities but I am not sure

However, there was a statement at one time about one of their friends visiting the apartment when Kate was bathing the kids/herself as it has been said she was in a towel, then was changed to fully dressed. That seems to have disappeared now though. Considering the bloke who it was has been written out of the new timeline entirely :S

I can see I am gong to get obsessed with this again now. I wish they hadnt done the crimewatch thing as it drove me crazy last time I was searching everything :laugh:

[MTVN]

Not had time to read it all but for another perspective this site gives rebuttals of various rumours/reports about the case, seems to be quite a lot of stuff on the sniffer dogs

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

[chuff me dizzy]

And before they left for the restaurant when was the last time anyone saw Maddie besides Gerry and Kate?

According to mcCanns (NOT POLICE) the last person to se her was David Payne, he claimed he stayed in 5a for 30 minutes,Kate says it was 30 seconds

[chuff me dizzy]

One the videos which shows the body language of the McCanns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFzRFrIfv2M

[Vicky.]

Not had time to read it all but for another perspective this site gives rebuttals of various rumours/reports about the case, seems to be quite a lot of stuff on the sniffer dogs

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Yeah, and the main source they use is media stories :D

Misleading seems to crop up a lot on the rebuttals. Though if you actually read them, seems much of what they are trying to debunk is actually correct.

The dogs stuff...most the 'disproving' stuff is just silly. It was never claimed that the dogs findings were backed up with DNA evidence as far a I am aware..if it was, the McCanns would have been arrested on the spot. So to say the dogs findings story is false because there wasnt the DNA to back it up..hardly takes away from the fact that the dogs found something in there..the video of such is found in many places on the internet.

The explanations appear to be all smoke an mirrors tbh

[Niamh.]

According to mcCanns (NOT POLICE) the last person to se her was David Payne, he claimed he stayed in 5a for 30 minutes,Kate says it was 30 seconds

and what time was that at?

[Jesus.]

Not had time to read it all but for another perspective this site gives rebuttals of various rumours/reports about the case, seems to be quite a lot of stuff on the sniffer dogs

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Thanks for posting this.

[Vanessa]

One the videos which shows the body language of the McCanns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFzRFrIfv2M

Thanks, Chuff. That's a real eye opener. Gerry was fidgeting lot when asked about giving Maddie sleeping pills. That suggests lying to me.

[thesheriff443]

We are not DS. We wont close threads just because a couple of posters find it a bit uncomfortable that others have different opinion to them.

I don't see how it is disrespectful to Madeleine for people to want the truth to come out about what actually happened.

and you think the truth will come out on here do you.
lets keep going over it again again from one opinion to the the next without getting any nearing to the truth.
accusation after accusation.
still if it makes the day go quicker.

[Vanessa]

and you think the truth will come out on here do you.
lets keep going over it again again from one opinion to the the next without getting any nearing to the truth.
accusation after accusation.
still if it makes the day go quicker.

I don't see the harm in discussing it, sheriff. The case is a real mystery and everyone wants to know what happened that night.

[Jesus.]

Not had time to read it all but for another perspective this site gives rebuttals of various rumours/reports about the case, seems to be quite a lot of stuff on the sniffer dogs

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

The stuff about the dogs is definitely worth a read.

[chuff me dizzy]

and what time was that at?

I will check

[chuff me dizzy]

What "Mother" could even think ,never mind put into print about her 3 years old childs genitals ?


http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/page-129-of-kate-mccanns-book.html

[Josy]

and you think the truth will come out on here do you.
lets keep going over it again again from one opinion to the the next without getting any nearing to the truth.
accusation after accusation.
still if it makes the day go quicker.

No one here is saying that what they post is the truth, they are posting opinions on this topic that's all, if it's bothering you so much just don't enter the thread.

[chuff me dizzy]

and what time was that at?

All in here http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/david-paynes-visit-to-apartment-5a-to.html

[Vanessa]

The part about the sniffer dogs is fascinating. It certainly suggests accidental death. :shocked:

[Jesus.]

The part about the sniffer dogs is fascinating. It certainly suggests accidental death. :shocked:

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078028/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2029

[Vanessa]

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078028/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2029

I think the McCanns know more that they're letting on about what happened.

[Niamh.]

All in here http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/david-paynes-visit-to-apartment-5a-to.html

Thank you :love:

[Niall]

Yeah, I thought that's what everyone did when they went abroad with their kids, you always see restaurants full of kids over there, we've done it ourselves with our own kids and the Spanish are very kid friendly, there wouldn't be a problem with that.

I disagree though that leaving two 2 year olds and a 3 year old in an unlocked apartment alone isn't neglectful though, jeez what if there was a fire? Or one of them wandered out onto a road or out and fell in the pool? It's unbelievably neglectful imo

That's what I thought as well. I thought that was the main reason most families flocked to Spain, because it's all so family friendly. I mean I've seen most people stay out late with their kids when they're on holiday anyway, even if they are toddlers.

I suppose that's true. But the fact still remains that they did regular checks and they were less than a hundred metres away from the apartment. It's not as if they left the compound for a night on the town. They were still very close by, not as close by as they should have been mind, but still very close.

[Vicky.]

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078028/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2029

None of that takes away from the fact that both dogs alerted to various places/things in the apartment though. No, there wasnt forensic evidence to back them up..dont think it was ever claimed that there was (though I have heard that blood that could be Madeleines was found ii the hire car, but they couldnt be sure as only 15 or the 19 something or others matched..not sure how valid that is) but to totally discount the whole dog thing based on this is ridiculous.

[Vanessa]

Yes. My sister and her husband always took the kids with them if they were eating out. Even when they were toddlers.

[chuff me dizzy]

None of that takes away from the fact that both dogs alerted to various places/things in the apartment though. No, there wasnt forensic evidence to back them up..dont think it was ever claimed that there was (though I have heard that blood that could be Madeleines was found ii the hire car, but they couldnt be sure as only 15 or the 19 something or others matched..not sure how valid that is) but to totally discount the whole dog thing based on this is ridiculous.

Martin Brunt on the DNA in 5A ,Hire car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8KYHYzvvqI

[Cherie]

What "Mother" could even think ,never mind put into print about her 3 years old childs genitals ?


http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/page-129-of-kate-mccanns-book.html


What do you mean? I think any Mother or Father for that matter would think some awful thoughts about what could be happening to their child if they believe the child was abducted by a paedophile? or would you just cover your eyes and ears and hum tunelessly

I really abhor what the McCanns did that night, personally I think you have to put your kids first where ever you are, after all you chose to have them, but equally I find some of the stuff that is awash on the about the couple equally distasteful. They have not been found guilty of anything other than being very stupid and neglectful, and until the police find evidence to arrest them, they remain just stupid and neglectful in my mind, nothing else.

[chuff me dizzy]

Martin Brunt "FULL DNA match to Maddie in hire car" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMCZslgXCRo

[James]

The McCanns left at around 8.30. Gerry checked at around 9pm..apparently kids were all ok, he went to loo, had a chat with someone then went back to table (around 9.25). Oldfield checked kids at 9.30, but only saw twins, never thought to check Maddie was there. Quiet so assumed everything was fine. Kate checked kids at 10pm and realised Maddie was missing.

Gerry was only one to actually see Madeline between them leaving the apartment and Kate discovering she was gone.

So they were dining happily with their friends, with no indication that anything was wrong until 10 pm. I read that they raised the alarm with the resort and asked for the police to be called at 10:10 pm. So that is only 10 minutes in between?

Not had time to read it all but for another perspective this site gives rebuttals of various rumours/reports about the case, seems to be quite a lot of stuff on the sniffer dogs

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

There's a lot of rebuttals on that site involving the seven friends which shows the conspiracy theories must only hold up if the friends were covering things up? Which I said was highly unlikely.

[Vanessa]

Martin Brunt "FULL DNA match to Maddie in hire car" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMCZslgXCRo

I found this comment interesting.

hi, Im from Portugal(sorry my bad english), here in my country everyone knows the truth because police as made a public explanation of investigation on tv. Madeleine unfornatly dies in the apartment with 100% certain of police investigators. She hit his head falling of apartment sofa. I care for madeleine parents, and i know all this situation is beeing really difficult for them . there is too much in game. their live as beeing a hell just because because they just cant tell the truth.

[Vicky.]

So they were dining happily with their friends, with no indication that anything was wrong until 10 pm. I read that they raised the alarm with the resort and asked for the police to be called at 10:10 pm. So that is only 10 minutes in between?

Kate discovered her missing at 10pm (according to both timelines written by the Tapas 9). A search was started, the police werent called until nearer 11pm than 10 (think it was about 10.40 ish)

Mind I understand not calling the police immediately. She could have been hiding or something, they had to be certain she was gone.

[Vanessa]

Kate discovered her missing at 10pm (according to both timelines written by the Tapas 9). A search was started, the police werent called until nearer 11pm than 10 (think it was about 10.40 ish)

I find that really odd. Why not call the police straight away? :suspect:

[Vicky.]

There's a lot of rebuttals on that site involving the seven friends which shows the conspiracy theories must only hold up if the friends were covering things up? Which I said was highly unlikely.

But thats not true. If you read the statements of the friends.

That site does a terrible job of rebutting anything. Their main sources are news stories and McCann interviews (which the story changes in very often too)

They say a lot of the 'conspiracies' are misleading, yet their rebuttals are just as misleading.

[Kazanne]

There have been few mysteries in my time ,but this one is like a maze,so much has happened yet we seem to have little knowledge of where she is,there seems to be 'something' not right with her parents,just not sure what it is.

[Niamh.]

Just reading a little more about it atm and I came across this statement, I think it's a few years old, have they ever done one? That's also suspicious imo :

Neither Kate or Gerry have taken or indicate they will take a polygraph. Parents of missing children do this to clear themselves so the police will not waste time focusing on them.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id191.html

[Jesus.]

None of that takes away from the fact that both dogs alerted to various places/things in the apartment though. No, there wasnt forensic evidence to back them up..dont think it was ever claimed that there was (though I have heard that blood that could be Madeleines was found ii the hire car, but they couldnt be sure as only 15 or the 19 something or others matched..not sure how valid that is) but to totally discount the whole dog thing based on this is ridiculous.

But they aren't quite as specific as people claiming foul play would have you believe. In fact, there is virtually no evidence that is ascertained from anything to do with the dogs. I was hearing last night, how one dog only detects the scent of death, and he picked it up in very specific places in a very specific way, but that's not true.

I even watched the YT clip of him searching the car, and he didn't give a 2nd thought about the car, until he was called back to it, then he suddenly found something.

There is nothing really for me to totally discount.

[Vanessa]

Why are they so convinced Maddie was kidnapped? She may have wondered off by herself. :conf:

[Cherie]

I found this comment interesting.

hi, Im from Portugal(sorry my bad english), here in my country everyone knows the truth because police as made a public explanation of investigation on tv. Madeleine unfornatly dies in the apartment with 100% certain of police investigators. She hit his head falling of apartment sofa. I care for madeleine parents, and i know all this situation is beeing really difficult for them . there is too much in game. their live as beeing a hell just because because they just cant tell the truth.

case closed.:spin:

[Vanessa]

case closed.:spin:

I don't know if this is true or not. I just thought it was interesting. :shrug:

[Jesus.]

He is from Portugal, Cherie, and everyone in Portugal knows.

[Vanessa]

He is from Portugal, Cherie, and everyone in Portugal knows.

I think accidental death is the most likely scenario.

[Vicky.]

Just reading a little more about it atm and I came across this statement, I think it's a few years old, have they ever done one? That's also suspicious imo :

Neither Kate or Gerry have taken or indicate they will take a polygraph. Parents of missing children do this to clear themselves so the police will not waste time focusing on them.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id191.html

No they haven't.

Would clear a lot up.

I know polygraph tests aren't 100% reliable though. Maybe thats why.. :laugh:

[chuff me dizzy]

Just reading a little more about it atm and I came across this statement, I think it's a few years old, have they ever done one? That's also suspicious imo :

Neither Kate or Gerry have taken or indicate they will take a polygraph. Parents of missing children do this to clear themselves so the police will not waste time focusing on them.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id191.html

Kate said when they fled from Portugal ,the day after being made arguido that she was willing to take lie detector test, to date she has refused ,IMO before 1p of taxpayers money was handed over to them ,they should have been made to take one .. the idea to charge them in the early days came from the Uk police NOT Pj (or bumbling pj as the red tops like to call them ) Le Rainbow a criminal profiler who worked for the Home Offices report ........ http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mccanns-should-be-treated-as-suspects-brit-200689

[Vicky.]

But they aren't quite as specific as people claiming foul play would have you believe. In fact, there is virtually no evidence that is ascertained from anything to do with the dogs. I was hearing last night, how one dog only detects the scent of death, and he picked it up in very specific places in a very specific way, but that's not true.

I even watched the YT clip of him searching the car, and he didn't give a 2nd thought about the car, until he was called back to it, then he suddenly found something.

There is nothing really for me to totally discount.

Good for you. I wish I could be so sure, as this case wrecks my head completely.

[Vanessa]

Good for you. I wish I could be so sure, as this case wrecks my head completely.

I know. It's a real mystery.

[Niamh.]

No they haven't.

Would clear a lot up.

I know polygraph tests aren't 100% reliable though. Maybe thats why.. :laugh:

mmm I don't know, I guess again I'm just putting myself in their shoes, as a parent, if my baby just disappeared I would do anything at all that might help with the case, that would be my main priority, I couldn't imagine being too worried about whether or not I would fail it

[Ammi]

..One of the things that stood out on the interview for me was saying that Madeleine had woken up the night before and asked where they were...why would they say that, they knew the speculations so that would make them look worse, surely..so why would they do that of a conversation that didn't need to be told if they didn't want further speculations about them leaving her the second night...and if they were guilty of anything other than leaving the children, what would telling it achieve then...that it was possible that she woke up and had an accident/wandered off..?..but they've always maintained that she was 'taken'...

[Kazanne]

Kate said when they fled from Portugal ,the day after being made arguido that she was willing to take lie detector test, to date she has refused ,IMO before 1p of taxpayers money was handed over to them ,they should have been made to take one .. the idea to charge them in the early days came from the Uk police NOT Pj (or bumbling pj as the red tops like to call them ) Le Rainbow a criminal profiler who worked for the Home Offices report ........ http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mccanns-should-be-treated-as-suspects-brit-200689

Yes good point Chuff,you'de think it would be the first thing they would do,well one of the first,firstly I would look for her!

[Vanessa]

..One of the things that stood out on the interview for me was saying that Madeleine had woken up the night before and asked where they were...why would they say that, they knew the speculations so that would make them look worse, surely..so why would they do that of a conversation that didn't need to be told if they didn't want further speculations about them leaving her the second night...and if they were guilty of anything other than leaving the children, what would telling it achieve then...that it was possible that she woke up and had an accident/wandered off..?..but they've always maintained that she was 'taken'...

I know, i just find it odd. There's no evidence whatsoever that she was kidnapped. She could have wondered off by herself for example. :suspect:

[chuff me dizzy]

Do any of you know McCanns deleted phone calls ,text messages before police called? why would you do that ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

[Jesus.]

Good for you. I wish I could be so sure, as this case wrecks my head completely.

It's not a case of being so sure, I think it's a case of not rushing to call people murderers on the basis of half lies, Chinese whispers, and the internet. I know you're not calling them murderers, you just like to continually point to things that raise doubts about their innocence.

If there was real evidence out there, the Portuguese police who seemed pretty keen on it being them at one point, would have made it happen by now. I'n not saying it couldn't possibly be them, but the moving parts involved in pulling something like this off, is certainly beyond most people.

[Vanessa]

Do any of you know McCanns deleted phone calls ,text messages before police called? why would you do that ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

Really? How odd. :suspect:

[Vicky.]

It's not a case of being so sure, I think it's a case of not rushing to call people murderers on the basis of half lies, Chinese whispers, and the internet. I know you're not calling them murderers, you just like to continually point to things that raise doubts about their innocence.

If there was real evidence out there, the Portuguese police who seemed pretty keen on it being them at one point, would have made it happen by now. I'n not saying it couldn't possibly be them, but the moving parts involved in pulling something like this off, is certainly beyond most people.

I don't think they are murderers, not by a long stretch. I don't think anyone actually killed Madeleine that night. I don't even think Kate had anything to do with it, nor the other friends and I fully believe they were telling the truth with their statements (that add up). I just find the abduction story so hard to believe. Especially now that Jane Tanners view of the abductor (for 6 years) has been chucked out and it appears that the last person to see Maddie was Gerry.

ETA. Basically, I think that Madeleine had an accident in the apartment soon after her parents left. Gerry found her when he did his check. Panicked like **** knowing that they would be suspects. Hid the body somewhere close knowing the alarm would be raised before long (if they were checking every half hour) then used the panic and 'searching' to get rid of the body. I believe the smiths sighting was Gerry. Considering Martin Smith originally said he was 60-80% sure the man he saw was Gerry too....

Of course I could be way off the mark, but to me this makes more sense than the abduction/failed burglary lines :shrug:

The reason the case keeps being brought up by them IMO, is because the mother believes her child was abducted and obviously the father can't tell her/anyone the truth.

[Brother Leon]

People really underestimating what it would take for them to have pulled this off. To have realised she died,disposed of the body, got back etc lord knows how long it may of took. Of course it may of happened earlier, but to dispose of a dead body in a place you are not completely familiar with no less without it reappearing after 7 years now and not one person spotting the suspicion(this would of been daylight and busy unless it happened alot longer before at like 5am) you either need to be incredibly lucky or some sort of criminal mastermind that had this planned for a while. I highly doubt they are any. They are **** parents who left the child vulnerable and once the guy saw the media hunt he probably panicked and killed her. I assume he would know what he was doing to pull it off or at least had someone telling him what to do that did.

[Ammi]

Do any of you know McCanns deleted phone calls ,text messages before police called? why would you do that ? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

..hmm, it could be many reasons and not necessarily 'sinister' in any way...explicit texts/affair..?...anything really, but not related to Madeleine going missing .....maybe they just panicked about something else and their phones being looked at....

[Ammi]

People really underestimating what it would take for them to have pulled this off. To have realised she died,disposed of the body, got back etc lord knows how long it may of took. Of course it may of happened earlier, but to dispose of a dead body in a place you are not completely familiar with no less without it reappearing after 7 years now and not one person spotting the suspicion(this would of been daylight and busy unless it happened alot longer before at like 5am) you either need to be incredibly lucky or some sort of criminal mastermind that had this planned for a while. I highly doubt they are any. They are **** parents who left the child vulnerable and once the guy saw the media hunt he probably panicked and killed her. I assume he would know what he was doing to pull it off or at least had someone telling him what to do that did.

..yeah, exactly, Leon....

[Vanessa]

..hmm, it could be many reasons and not necessarily 'sinister' in any way...explicit texts/affair..?...anything really, but not related to Madeleine going missing .....maybe they just panicked about something else and their phones being looked at....

I still think it's very odd.

[Ammi]

I still think it's very odd.

...yeah I know what you mean but I don't think 'odd' necessarily means they know or did anything more than they say because either way...whichever way you look at it/whatever opinions anyone may have, it doesn't look any less 'odd' or consistent....and I really don't think we'll ever know...

[Vanessa]

...yeah I know what you mean but I don't think 'odd' necessarily means they know or did anything more than they say because either way...whichever way you look at it/whatever opinions anyone may have, it doesn't look any less 'odd' or consistent....and I really don't think we'll ever know...

It suggests they're hiding something.

[Ammi]

It suggests they're hiding something.

..hmm, but then what they're not hiding..their story..everything about it kind of points to people being suspicious and at the very least condemning them as 'bad parents' so that kind of doesn't make sense to me either Vanessa...that what they're hiding is sinister, if they were hiding anything at all...

[Vanessa]

..hmm, but then what they're not hiding..their story..everything about it kind of points to people being suspicious and at the very least condemning them as 'bad parents' so that kind of doesn't make sense to me either Vanessa...that what they're hiding is sinister, if they were hiding anything at all...

I think it's possible they killed Maddie by accident. Maybe by giving her sleeping pills? Or she fell ?

[Marsh.]

I don't think it ever will be. It seems fairly obvious that the Portuguese police know, or are fairly sure, of what happened to Maddie, that her parents know she is dead and disposed of her body. Buy there has been a massive effort to bury that conclusion by powerful figures, including the police chief losing his job, and being threatened with libel suits several times.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that a hell of a lot of money and power is being pumped into the effort to NOT solve this case. Why? I really have no idea. At this point it could simply be because the implications of the truth being revealed are too wide-spread and "embarrassing" for both governments and for Scotland Yard.

Extreme theory though. As you say, there's no reason at all for the government to cover the murder/accidental death of one 3 year old and then spend millions to cover it up whilst at the same time allowing these high profile appeals to continue.

I think she may have wondered off to look for her parents. It may explain why the window was open.

The windows were covered with those shutter things. I really doubt a 3 year old girl, who was apparently so tired from the day as well would have the strength to open the window, push up a shutter and clamber out.

The McCanns left at around 8.30. Gerry checked at around 9pm..apparently kids were all ok, he went to loo, had a chat with someone then went back to table (around 9.25). Oldfield checked kids at 9.30, but only saw twins, never thought to check Maddie was there. Quiet so assumed everything was fine. Kate checked kids at 10pm and realised Maddie was missing.

Gerry was only one to actually see Madeline between them leaving the apartment and Kate discovering she was gone.

That is suspicious, the only problem with something happening between those times that Gerry may be covering is the fact that they allowed a friend to check on them at 9.30 who they couldn't be sure wouldn't check to see Maddie in her bed. It would have been a stroke of luck that he just glanced at the twins and then walked out.

Why are they so convinced Maddie was kidnapped? She may have wondered off by herself. :conf:

Because there's no sign of her? If she'd just wandered off, surely she'd have been found at some point, dead or alive. There'd have been sightings of a little girl strolling around at night.

[Vanessa]

This case is such a mystery. The more i think about it the more i'm confused. :(

[thesheriff443]

No one here is saying that what they post is the truth, they are posting opinions on this topic that's all, if it's bothering you so much just don't enter the thread.

its not bothering me josy, keep it up!

[Z]

Hypothetically... (as always, theorising away :laugh:)

They go away on a family holiday with their friends who all have kids too, they decide that it's mostly about the grown ups and it's their time to have some fun so they fob the kids off onto day care for the most part and put them to bed early so they can go out at night. They leave phones, kids and all responsibilities in the rooms and leave the doors unlocked so that every half hour someone can go check on whoever has kids on the holiday with them. Madeleine tells her parents that they woke up and were scared and crying the night before she goes missing; the parents find this an inconvenience so they up her dosage of sleeping pills or whatever form of sedative they're using so she doesn't wake up...

Madeleine does wake up, however, and because she's groggy from the medication, goes through to the living room, perhaps climbs onto the sofa but falls off and hits her head and bleeds to death. Gerry comes back at 9pm and freaks out, perhaps picks her up using some of Kate's clothing (mentioned that there was the scent of death on her clothing - but was that the clothing she was wearing that night?), runs through to the bedroom in a panic (scent of death there?), runs to the car, puts her in the boot, gets rid of the body temporarily (perhaps leaves it in the boot of the car), stages the room to look like a break in, returns to dinner - Kate finds her missing an hour later, Gerry goes out looking for her and uses this time to get rid of the body...

I dunno, I don't really like to think of them as nasty people but I do find their generally unapologetic attitude towards what happened very unpleasant, if not a little bit suspicious. I'd rather believe that she was kidnapped and they were just unfortunately punished for their lax parenting but it is SO rare for these things to happen at the hands of a stranger... that doesn't mean it isn't possible, but statistically, they're always going to be the main suspects.

[Vanessa]

Hypothetically... (as always, theorising away :laugh:)

They go away on a family holiday with their friends who all have kids too, they decide that it's mostly about the grown ups and it's their time to have some fun so they fob the kids off onto day care for the most part and put them to bed early so they can go out at night. They leave phones, kids and all responsibilities in the rooms and leave the doors unlocked so that every half hour someone can go check on whoever has kids on the holiday with them. Madeleine tells her parents that they woke up and were scared and crying the night before she goes missing; the parents find this an inconvenience so they up her dosage of sleeping pills or whatever form of sedative they're using so she doesn't wake up...

Madeleine does wake up, however, and because she's groggy from the medication, goes through to the living room, perhaps climbs onto the sofa but falls off and hits her head and bleeds to death. Gerry comes back at 9pm and freaks out, perhaps picks her up using some of Kate's clothing (mentioned that there was the scent of death on her clothing - but was that the clothing she was wearing that night?), runs through to the bedroom in a panic (scent of death there?), runs to the car, puts her in the boot, gets rid of the body temporarily (perhaps leaves it in the boot of the car), stages the room to look like a break in, returns to dinner - Kate finds her missing an hour later, Gerry goes out looking for her and uses this time to get rid of the body...

I dunno, I don't really like to think of them as nasty people but I do find their generally unapologetic attitude towards what happened very unpleasant, if not a little bit suspicious. I'd rather believe that she was kidnapped and they were just unfortunately punished for their lax parenting but it is SO rare for these things to happen at the hands of a stranger... that doesn't mean it isn't possible, but statistically, they're always going to be the main suspects.

I think this is the most likely scenario.

[Vicky.]

IIRC the car wasn't hired until weeks after she disappeared.

But I think the rest sounds about right tbh.

I think it much more likely that the Smith sighting was Gerry personally. Would also explain why the McCanns have largely ignored that sighting, instead focusing on Jane Tanners bogeyman.

[Jamesy]

I think a government cover up is going too far. However a cover up of some sorts could be credible.

Perhaps with the heavy media initially surrounding the case and The McCanns shown as the victims the public reaction was quite phenomenal. May be it was discovered at some point, possibly by a senior team member that The McCanns had some involvement with the disappearance of their daughter, maybe even some form of evidence against them found. Said senior team member shows this to their boss. The boss realises just how big this is, how it could ruin the careers of the investigators and how much it would rip apart the media, said boss and senior team member ensure it stays covered up and would be impossible to link in with The McCanns.

Now this is jumping into the realms of what you would read in something like a Simon Kernick book (or just any crazy crime-thriller novel). It's alarming and unlikely, but quite possible. Certainly not off the record. But I don't know, that's a bit too 'crazy conspiracist' for my liking.

[Vicky.]

I do not believe the government/police coverup story at all.

Tbh I think the police are just as suspicious as some of the public are, but they know they need concrete evidence to make it stick. Last time the McCanns were named as possible suspects, they skipped the country (despite saying they wouldnt leave until MAddie was found)..maybe they don't want a repeat :laugh:

Also, I have a hunch that the crimewatch thing was about getting more descriptions of the Smith sighting, as I'm sure the police haven't missed that the descriptions appear to match Gerry, nor will they be ignorant of the fact that Smith named Gerry specifically at one point too. I sincerely hope this CCTV footage is found that I have seen mentioned over the past few days.

[Ammi]

Hypothetically... (as always, theorising away :laugh:)

They go away on a family holiday with their friends who all have kids too, they decide that it's mostly about the grown ups and it's their time to have some fun so they fob the kids off onto day care for the most part and put them to bed early so they can go out at night. They leave phones, kids and all responsibilities in the rooms and leave the doors unlocked so that every half hour someone can go check on whoever has kids on the holiday with them. Madeleine tells her parents that they woke up and were scared and crying the night before she goes missing; the parents find this an inconvenience so they up her dosage of sleeping pills or whatever form of sedative they're using so she doesn't wake up...

Madeleine does wake up, however, and because she's groggy from the medication, goes through to the living room, perhaps climbs onto the sofa but falls off and hits her head and bleeds to death. Gerry comes back at 9pm and freaks out, perhaps picks her up using some of Kate's clothing (mentioned that there was the scent of death on her clothing - but was that the clothing she was wearing that night?), runs through to the bedroom in a panic (scent of death there?), runs to the car, puts her in the boot, gets rid of the body temporarily (perhaps leaves it in the boot of the car), stages the room to look like a break in, returns to dinner - Kate finds her missing an hour later, Gerry goes out looking for her and uses this time to get rid of the body...

I dunno, I don't really like to think of them as nasty people but I do find their generally unapologetic attitude towards what happened very unpleasant, if not a little bit suspicious. I'd rather believe that she was kidnapped and they were just unfortunately punished for their lax parenting but it is SO rare for these things to happen at the hands of a stranger... that doesn't mean it isn't possible, but statistically, they're always going to be the main suspects.

..but we don't know that she was drugged in any way and why Madeleine and not the twins, in case they woke up and screamed/drew attention to being left alone without a parent...it doesn't really make sense and they're bot doctors..hmm, he's a heart specialist I think, so would they really not know how much drugs/sedatives to give anyway....I don't really believe that with their medical knowledge, they would just 'up a dose'....lol none of the 'conspiracies' make sense.....

[Z]

..but we don't know that she was drugged in any way and why Madeleine and not the twins, in case they woke up and screamed/drew attention to being left alone without a parent...it doesn't really make sense and they're bot doctors..hmm, he's a heart specialist I think, so would they really not know how much drugs/sedatives to give anyway....I don't really believe that with their medical knowledge, they would just 'up a dose'....lol none of the 'conspiracies' make sense.....

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

[Vanessa]

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

That's true. Kids fall over all the time, especially three year olds. My nephew is the same age and tends to be quite clumsy.

[Jesus.]

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

The dog stuff is not as definitive as has been stated in this thread. If you go back a couple of pages MTVN posted a site exposing the myths about the conspiracy theorists. There is a good section on the dogs, what they actually do, and what actually happened.

[Vicky.]

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...

Nah it doesn't mean it was her.

Which is why the dogs mean not too much on their own.

[Vicky.]

Also I dont think its fair really to write off those questioning the official line as conspiracy theorists. Mainly because conspiracy theories tend to be quite ridiculous and go against mountains of evidence.

While there is no evidence the parents did anything, there is also no actual evidence of an abduction either.

The only facts of this case really are, the parents left her alone, and then she disappeared. And has never been found.

[Marsh.]

I just think conspiracy theories around a big government cover up is ridiculous.

There's just no reason to cover up the death accidental or otherwise of a 3 year old girl and then continue to allow the search/investigation to continue.

[Vicky.]

I don't see what the government would have to gain by covering anything up (in this case, not in general)

[Jesus.]

Also I dont think its fair really to write off those questioning the official line as conspiracy theorists. Mainly because conspiracy theories tend to be quite ridiculous and go against mountains of evidence.

While there is no evidence the parents did anything, there is also no actual evidence of an abduction either.

The only facts of this case really are, the parents left her alone, and then she disappeared. And has never been found.

I wouldn't class you as a conspiracy theorist, but I would class some of the links provided to show the McCanns guilt, of being home to conspiracy theorists. Let's be clear, they are not merely asking questions. The implications are clear, and they believe it's a complete travesty that the McCanns have got away with murdering/covering up the accidental death of their daughter. That's a conspiracy theory, whichever way it's painted.

[Tom4784]

I think she's dead but I honestly don't think the parents did it, someone would have slipped up by now or substantial DNA evidence would have come to light. It's damn near impossible to cover up a violent crime if the crime scene is known by the police, they would have left some trace no matter how meticulous they could have been in covering it up.

[Ammi]

Tbh I don't know all that much about the ins and outs and timelines, I'm just basing this on what people have said in this thread - as Vicky said (I just looked it up) the car was hired weeks after she disappeared. They could have all been sedated, I don't know, somebody said they had admitted to sedating their kids. Doctors can get things wrong; and anaesthesia/sedation is a totally different area of medicine, perhaps they weren't too careful about the dosage they gave the kids or maybe they gave them the right amount, but for some reason Madeleine woke up? I don't know. The police dog thing is a very interesting aspect though.

What I wonder though is just because the dogs detected the smell doesn't mean it was Madeleine who they were detecting, does it? Because it says on that website that cadaver dogs have been used to find bodies that have been hidden away for years... so isn't it possible that all of their evidence is circumstantial? Yes, they smelled the presence of a body... but it doesn't have to be Madeleine's... and yes they detected blood on some things... but people get cuts and scrapes all the time. Hmmm...


..yeah, I'm sure that was said at the time..2/3yr old do get a lot of cuts and bruises and especially running around swimming pools etc in their bare feet..but that's another thing for me...the last pictures of Kate with Madeleine looked like a mum/family enjoying a holiday..and I know they left them in the apartment alone, that I have no understanding for but I just don't see the 'cold' people they would have to be to have covered anything up....I think the timeline was only around one and a half hours from when they went out to dinner until she was missing and they were with friends having a meal most of that time, so it would all seem an awful lot to fit into that space of time if they were involved....

[Ammi]

I think she's dead but I honestly don't think the parents did it, someone would have slipped up by now or substantial DNA evidence would have come to light. It's damn near impossible to cover up a violent crime if the crime scene is known by the police, they would have left some trace no matter how meticulous they could have been in covering it up.

..I think also on the night and in the days/weeks afterwards, their body language would have given it away or they would completely crumbled if they just did something in 'shock' and an immediate reaction because they would know that their daughter was dead in reality...how could they not react to that unless they were completely cold people, which I don't believe they are....

[Vicky.]

She seems to be quite emotional to me, and a bit unstable tbh..but given the circumstances I would say that was normal. He comes across cold.

He may just have an unfortunate face/expressions, but it seems he smirks quite often when talking about Madeleine too :S

[Kazanne]

Why are some people so sure she didn't wander off? the patio doors were left open.

[Kazanne]

She seems to be quite emotional to me, and a bit unstable tbh..but given the circumstances I would say that was normal. He comes across cold.

He may just have an unfortunate face/expressions, but it seems he smirks quite often when talking about Madeleine too :S

She seems to be controlled by him,I noticed he butts in many a time when she is talking,he may be trying to help her out,but he's a strange one allright.

[Ammi]

She seems to be quite emotional to me, and a bit unstable tbh..but given the circumstances I would say that was normal. He comes across cold.

He may just have an unfortunate face/expressions, but it seems he smirks quite often when talking about Madeleine too :S

..I don't know, I just think that a husband could seem 'cold' if he was trying to control or feel as though he had to control his emotions to be what he thinks his wife would need him to be in a situation like this...to me that's more a sign that it's just him/his character because if he was hiding something, he maybe would want to appear more upset and emotional to garner sympathy...I just think of those parents/relatives etc who have harmed their children and then they go on TV and 'act' an appeal for their whereabouts....

[Vicky.]

Why are some people so sure she didn't wander off? the patio doors were left open.

I think there might have been some sightings of a small child wandering round alone if she had just wandered off

[Z]

The dog stuff is not as definitive as has been stated in this thread. If you go back a couple of pages MTVN posted a site exposing the myths about the conspiracy theorists. There is a good section on the dogs, what they actually do, and what actually happened.

I'm reading the cwporter one just now, the one that discusses why the McCanns may be guilty, I'm gonna read the one refuting it afterwards just for the sake of clarity (don't want to read the website refuting the one I'm currently reading before I read the one I'm currently reading, it'd be confusing) - depending on whether or not they are covering up her death - they have either been extremely lucky or extremely unlucky that there are so many circumstances that muddy the waters as to whether or not they are guilty...

[Z]

Why are some people so sure she didn't wander off? the patio doors were left open.

I'm reading the website that claims they are guilty, and the McCanns have certainly given a lot of conflicting statements and withheld information that logically they should have been forthcoming about... but then there are also perfectly logical explanations for those things.

They said that they left the doors unlocked in case there was a fire so the kids could escape, and then later said Madeleine wasn't strong enough to open the doors by herself... so then why make that original statement? Bizarre... my responses are gonna change as I move onto the other website I can just tell haha

[Kazanne]

I think there might have been some sightings of a small child wandering round alone if she had just wandered off

Yes there would, but wasn't there talk of some building work going on and also Portugal is littered with shafts etc,whats to say she hasn't slipped down one of those ,and of course there is the Ocean.

[Kazanne]

I'm reading the website that claims they are guilty, and the McCanns have certainly given a lot of conflicting statements and withheld information that logically they should have been forthcoming about... but then there are also perfectly logical explanations for those things.

They said that they left the doors unlocked in case there was a fire so the kids could escape, and then later said Madeleine wasn't strong enough to open the doors by herself... so then why make that original statement? Bizarre... my responses are gonna change as I move onto the other website I can just tell haha

I certainly wouldn't like to be anyone working on this,there is just no end to it.

[Vicky.]

Yes there would, but wasn't there talk of some building work going on and also Portugal is littered with shafts etc,whats to say she hasn't slipped down one of those ,and of course there is the Ocean.

Getting to the ocean alone, unseen, would be quite hard for a 3/4 year old IMO. Though I guess nothing is impossible

I have never been to Portugal so didn't know about shafts and such, but I guess that could be a possibility. I would hope the police would have checked avenues like that though D:

[Vicky.]

I'm reading the cwporter one just now, the one that discusses why the McCanns may be guilty, I'm gonna read the one refuting it afterwards just for the sake of clarity (don't want to read the website refuting the one I'm currently reading before I read the one I'm currently reading, it'd be confusing) - depending on whether or not they are covering up her death - they have either been extremely lucky or extremely unlucky that there are so many circumstances that muddy the waters as to whether or not they are guilty...

Never before has anything been any truer :S

[chuff me dizzy]

..I think also on the night and in the days/weeks afterwards, their body language would have given it away or they would completely crumbled if they just did something in 'shock' and an immediate reaction because they would know that their daughter was dead in reality...how could they not react to that unless they were completely cold people, which I don't believe they are....

Did you not watch one of the body language videos I posted

[Z]

I've got to say as well, Jane Tanner seems like an extremely unreliable witness.

[Marsh.]

That statement about David Payne is very disturbing, especially since he was the last one to see her other than her parents.

Why are some people so sure she didn't wander off? the patio doors were left open.

But was the patio doors open when they returned and the curtain moved?
I doubt she'd have fixed them back into place if she walked out through them, and I don't think she'd have been able to get the shutter on the window open.

She seems to be controlled by him,I noticed he butts in many a time when she is talking,he may be trying to help her out,but he's a strange one allright.

I noticed that on Crimewatch. A lot of "As Gerry said" and "Gerry convinced me this...".

I mean it's probably just him being the stronger person and helping his wife through it, she seems completely broken by it. But it was something that made me think too.

[Me. I Am Salman]

can someone sum everything up please

[Marsh.]

can someone sum everything up please

You'd be better watching the Crimewatch reconstruction. It's on youtube.

[GypsyGoth]

Maybe her wonky eye is a clue.

[the truth]

so leaving the patio doors open makes no sense on any level....i.e. if theres a fire they cant escape through the doors as maddie wasn't strong enough to open them? so basically they've left the doors open in a foreign country with 3 defenceless babies alone and one it seems was snatched. insane

[user104658]

The more I thought about this today the more I realised that it doesn't actually matter what happened in that room...

They left three infants alone and vulnerable, recklessly, carelessly endangering their lives - and one of them died. Whether it was an accident that was covered up or an abduction DOESN'T MATTER one bit. It could have been a fire, it could have been a choking incident, it could have been a freak pack of wild dogs entering through the open patio door and mauling them... but what difference does it really make? The McCanns are to blame for what happened to that girl no matter how it actually went down. They left their children in what was clearly a dangerous situation and something happened to one of those children. It makes me seriously angry that they're so keen to be portrayed as the victims.

[the truth]

The more I thought about this today the more I realised that it doesn't actually matter what happened in that room...

They left three infants alone and vulnerable, recklessly, carelessly endangering their lives - and one of them died. Whether it was an accident that was covered up or an abduction DOESN'T MATTER one bit. It could have been a fire, it could have been a choking incident, it could have been a freak pack of wild dogs entering through the open patio door and mauling them... but what difference does it really make? The McCanns are to blame for what happened to that girl no matter how it actually went down. They left their children in what was clearly a dangerous situation and something happened to one of those children. It makes me seriously angry that they're so keen to be portrayed as the victims.

Agreed and they did it for years BEFORE AND AFTER THIS TRAGEDY
SO DID THEIR FRIENDS

So what do you do when youre guilty of neglect? you go on the attack, you don't help detectives, you go straight to the Pope and david beckham. great diversory tactics all moving us farther from THE TRUTH

[Cherie]

The more I thought about this today the more I realised that it doesn't actually matter what happened in that room...

They left three infants alone and vulnerable, recklessly, carelessly endangering their lives - and one of them died. Whether it was an accident that was covered up or an abduction DOESN'T MATTER one bit. It could have been a fire, it could have been a choking incident, it could have been a freak pack of wild dogs entering through the open patio door and mauling them... but what difference does it really make? The McCanns are to blame for what happened to that girl no matter how it actually went down. They left their children in what was clearly a dangerous situation and something happened to one of those children. It makes me seriously angry that they're so keen to be portrayed as the victims.

Agreed.

Agreed and they did it for years BEFORE AND AFTER THIS TRAGEDY
SO DID THEIR FRIENDS

So what do you do when youre guilty of neglect? you go on the attack, you don't help detectives, you go straight to the Pope and david beckham. great diversory tactics all moving us farther from THE TRUTH


How do you know that they did it for YEARS before and after :suspect:

[Vanessa]

Agreed.




How do you know that they did it for YEARS before and after :suspect:

They admitted it i think.

[Cherie]

They admitted it i think.

After as well I seriously doubt they have done it since unless they are totally insane.

[Vanessa]

After as well I seriously doubt they have done it since unless they are totally insane.

They just seem really careless to me.

[Z]

The more I thought about this today the more I realised that it doesn't actually matter what happened in that room...

They left three infants alone and vulnerable, recklessly, carelessly endangering their lives - and one of them died. Whether it was an accident that was covered up or an abduction DOESN'T MATTER one bit. It could have been a fire, it could have been a choking incident, it could have been a freak pack of wild dogs entering through the open patio door and mauling them... but what difference does it really make? The McCanns are to blame for what happened to that girl no matter how it actually went down. They left their children in what was clearly a dangerous situation and something happened to one of those children. It makes me seriously angry that they're so keen to be portrayed as the victims.

I think perhaps this is the best post that will come out of this thread. They are still guilty of neglecting their children in favour of acting like a couple without children on holiday with them. They should have just left the kids at home with someone in the family if they were so keen to get away to exercise, wine and dine in the sun.

[fingers]

They just seem really careless to me.

UNCARING describes them better.

[Vanessa]

UNCARING describes them better.

I feel sorry for the twins. I hope they take better care of them. :(

[Z]

I feel sorry for the twins. I hope they take better care of them. :(

I think they do... regardless of whether they accidentally killed her and covered it up or whether she was abducted, they'd be careful not to make the same mistakes again that led to the situation on that fateful night. No leaving the kids unattended, no giving them sedatives, no going out to get drunk while the kids are asleep... their lives have been put on hold anyway.

[thesheriff443]

you go away on holiday to relax and in some cases you let your guard down, and this is all that happened!, they where a hundred and fifty feet away from those kids and where checking on them, they where in a group, all doing the same thing! and that old saying saftey in numbers!,

what's more disturbing to me is that members on here where less vocal to condemn, baby p's mother and her early release for torturing her child on a daily basis than they are to condemn the mccanns.

this is just turned into a witch hunt, and the advert that springs to mind while reading this thread is the one that says, the internet you is better than the real you.

[Vanessa]

you go away on holiday to relax and in some cases you let your guard down, and this is all that happened!, they where a hundred and fifty feet away from those kids and where checking on them, they where in a group, all doing the same thing! and that old saying saftey in numbers!,

what's more disturbing to me is that members on here where less vocal to condemn, baby p's mother and her early release for torturing her child on a daily basis than they are to condemn the mccanns.

this is just turned into a witch hunt, and the advert that springs to mind while reading this thread is the one that says, the internet you is better than the real you.

They admitted it's not the first time they did it. It wasn't an isolated incident.

[Niamh.]

you go away on holiday to relax and in some cases you let your guard down, and this is all that happened!, they where a hundred and fifty feet away from those kids and where checking on them, they where in a group, all doing the same thing! and that old saying saftey in numbers!,

what's more disturbing to me is that members on here where less vocal to condemn, baby p's mother and her early release for torturing her child on a daily basis than they are to condemn the mccanns.

this is just turned into a witch hunt, and the advert that springs to mind while reading this thread is the one that says, the internet you is better than the real you.

That's pretty unfair, I think everyone was appalled at that case, the only reason this case is talked about more on here is because it's still somewhat of a mystery and unsolved, it's on going, the baby P case is not.

And to say leaving 3 babies alone in an unlocked apartment is simply a parent letting there guard done is a bit of a stretch imo, what it is is extremely irresponsible especially after your 3 year old told you they woke up crying and scared because they didn't know where you were in the middle of the night.

[chuff me dizzy]

If you were innocent why would refuse to answer 48 out of 49 police questions ? You simply would"nt http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm

[Jesus.]

If you were innocent why would refuse to answer 48 out of 49 police questions ? You simply would"nt http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm


Didn't she refuse to answer these questions after she had become an arguido?

If she'd refused to answer them immediately, then the police wouldn't have had any information at all to go on.

[MTVN]

Probably advised to by her lawyer

[chuff me dizzy]

Probably advised to by her lawyer

Gerry answered his ,so no thats not it ,If i knew that I was a suspect in a case and I knew I had nopthing to hide I wouldnt dream of hindering police,I still cannot understand why ,before £6m of taxpayers money was handed over, they were not made to take the lie detector test ,when papers have a comments part on their web pages you can see that the VAST majority of people do not believe them ,in one group Im in we have had 4000 new members since Crimewatch ,thats a lot of people

[Jesus.]

Gerry answered his ,so no thats not it ,If i knew that I was a suspect in a case and I knew I had nopthing to hide I wouldnt dream of hindering police,I still cannot understand why ,before £6m of taxpayers money was handed over, they were not made to take the lie detector test ,when papers have a comments part on their web pages you can see that the VAST majority of people do not believe them ,in one group Im in we have had 4000 new members since Crimewatch ,thats a lot of people

Jury by newspaper comments. Whatever next? Lets do away with all forms evidence and go by gut instinct.

So a grieving mother of an abducted child didn't react well to becoming a suspect. How thoroughly human of her. I genuinely hope you never have the internet pouring over your every twitch of the lip, or hand gesture under such terrible circumstances.

Even if your group, that trolls parents of a missing girl increased to 70million, it still doesn't prove anything, because this would have been nigh on impossible to pull off and leave no concrete evidence behind.

[Kizzy]

Many have attacked the couple for their behaviour before the incident, why is it so unusual to question it after?...

[Josy]

Jury by newspaper comments. Whatever next? Lets do away with all forms evidence and go by gut instinct.

So a grieving mother of an abducted child didn't react well to becoming a suspect. How thoroughly human of her. I genuinely hope you never have the internet pouring over your every twitch of the lip, or hand gesture under such terrible circumstances.

Even if your group, that trolls parents of a missing girl increased to 70million, it still doesn't prove anything, because this would have been nigh on impossible to pull off and leave no concrete evidence behind.

What evidence? there isn't any evidence that points to an abduction infact there isn't much evidence that points to anything other than a child that's no longer there.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people of trolling just because they have doubts about this case or are they supposed to believe everything they have been told without question?

[Jesus.]

What evidence? there isn't any evidence that points to an abduction infact there isn't much evidence that points to anything other than a child that's no longer there.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people of trolling just because they have doubts about this case or are they supposed to believe everything they have been told without question?

I was replying to the point Chuff made about how her group is swelling and newspaper comments are more important.

We are all innocent until proven guilty, and there isn't any evidence of murder/accidental death cover up either, so in this context they should be viewed as innocent. They are guilty of terrible parenting to leave them alone like that. I think my first post in this thread made that very point.

I've read the points made by posters in outside internet groups, and I can't describe it in any other way but trolling. People having doubts about a case is one thing, but I wasn't addressing the trolling remark in that direction.

I follow the evidence or the lack of, and if there isn't a case that's been made against them, then that is a lack of evidence.

If new evidence turns up that points to their guilt, I'd have no problem saying I was wrong all along.

[Niamh.]

Still reading through some of these sites atm, the whole thing about the shutter is a bit of a mystery aswell, it doesn't make any sense in an abduction scenario at all

[MTVN]

Still reading through some of these sites atm, the whole thing about the shutter is a bit of a mystery aswell, it doesn't make any sense in an abduction scenario at all

What thing was that?

[chuff me dizzy]

What evidence? there isn't any evidence that points to an abduction infact there isn't much evidence that points to anything other than a child that's no longer there.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people of trolling just because they have doubts about this case or are they supposed to believe everything they have been told without question?

F.B.I trusted police dogs with 100% record found blood, cadaver samples in several places including Kates clothes

[Niamh.]

What thing was that?

The shortened version is basically, the McCanns originally claimed all windows and doors were locked when they went out and at 10pm what alerted Kate to a problem was the bedroom door slamming shut because of the bedroom window being open because of that she then realised Maddie was not in her bed, this open window is apparently the reason kate immediately thought Maddie had been taken by someone. They told friends immediately after that the abductor must have "jemmied" the shutters on the window. But after the cops examined the room, they concluded that the window had not been tampered with and showed no signs of being opened from the outside. The McCanns then changed their story to being that they'd left the patio door open but that doesn't explain the window

What was locked and what was open? Was there an 'abductor'?

To answer these questions, we need first to look at what was said by the McCanns to family and friends in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance.

Jon Corner, as quoted above, clearly states that Kate had told him that they had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal. In other words both doors, front and patio, were locked.

Trish Cameron recalled that she received a call late that same night from Gerry and she recounted: "Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing... They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine."

Philomena McCann, Gerry's sister said on 04 May: "Some people may ask why they left the children alone in the apartment but it was locked and they had a full view of the front door and they were checking every half hour."

Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV on 04 May: "She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

The clear implication in Jill Renwick's statement is that she couldn't have gone out on her own because the front door and patio doors were locked. Otherwise Madeleine, as an active 4 yr-old, could surely have got out through 'open' patio doors very easily and on her own. She was clearly too small to attempt a climbed escape through a closed and shuttered window.

However, police tests showed the heavy metal shutter had not been forced up from the outside, so must have been pulled open from inside the room.

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for the investigation, confided in British former Chief Inspector Albert Kirby that neither the windows nor their shutters had been tampered with.

What must be appreciated, at this point, is that these comments, from closest family and friends - the first to be contacted, are not Chinese whispers. It is not a case that the McCanns rang one person, who got the message wrong, and this got passed on to everyone else. These are four people who received independent telephone calls from Gerry or Kate, in the hours following the 'abduction', and made independent statements. Yet, the statements all recount the same story. The McCanns' apartment was locked, so the 'abductor' must have gained access via the jemmied shutters and left via the front door.

But this begs the question: How did the abductor get into the apartment if the patio doors were locked and the shutters, as attending officers quickly assessed, had not been forced from the outside?

There now appear to be two problems with the recounted version of events. How did the abductor get in and why was the window open? And it's at that point the story changes, in a crucial way.

It is suddenly revealed that the patio doors to the rear of the apartment were left unlocked. This immediately resolves the problem of how the 'abductor' entered the apartment but it makes the decision to leave their three babies alone, inside an exposed and unlocked apartment, seem almost unbelievable, not to mention grossly negligent.

So, to further justify and soften the decision to leave the doors unlocked, it is 'revealed' that the McCanns and all their friends on the holiday left their patio doors open throughout the evenings for fear of fire.

They also embark on a series of interviews where they repeatedly assert that they are responsible parents and that their decision to leave the children alone was quite normal behaviour. Gerry goes so far as to describe it as no different to leaving them in the house when you go into the garden.

The second problem that now faces the McCanns is that they have committed themselves to an 'open window and shutter' story. Indeed, it is quoted as the very reason Kate knew something was wrong because when she says she opened the patio doors at 10.00pm, the bedroom door slammed shut as a result of the wind running though the apartment.

So, if the abductor clearly didn't enter through the bedroom window, why was it open? The McCanns hadn't opened it, so there could be only one reason. The 'abductor' must have used it to escape from.

It is also vaguely claimed that the front door has curious locks and can only be opened with a key, further strengthening the bizarre decision of the 'abductor' to escape through a window, carrying a child who would surely have woken up.

But why, with access to a front door and an apparently unlocked patio door, would the 'abductor' complicate things, and heighten the risk of detection, by clambering through a window with a heavy metal shutter?

This idea of a complicated 'key-only exit' front door can surely be discounted, as no apartment would be granted a fire certificate if you could only escape through the front door if you had the key. Mark Warner would surely not install doors that could leave them culpable in the event of a fire.

So, we now have the McCanns' insistance that the 'abductor', or 'predator' as he is now referred, was laying in wait, and entered through the open patio doors between checks on the children.

So what can we make of the way the story changed so quickly?

There is only one conclusion to be drawn.

If the patio doors were locked, as Kate and Gerry independently told Brian Healy, Jon Corner, Trish Cameron, Philomena McCann and Jill Renwick, and the window shutters had clearly not been 'jemmied', then there can have been no way into the apartment that evening. And therefore, by deduction, no abductor.

And that, is a very disturbing conclusion.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

[the truth]

Agreed.




How do you know that they did it for YEARS before and after :suspect:

the mccanns admitted it on crimewatch....did you not watch the show? them and all their friends did it

[Niamh.]

Back on topic please

[the truth]

you go away on holiday to relax and in some cases you let your guard down, and this is all that happened!, they where a hundred and fifty feet away from those kids and where checking on them, they where in a group, all doing the same thing! and that old saying saftey in numbers!,

what's more disturbing to me is that members on here where less vocal to condemn, baby p's mother and her early release for torturing her child on a daily basis than they are to condemn the mccanns.

this is just turned into a witch hunt, and the advert that springs to mind while reading this thread is the one that says, the internet you is better than the real you.

you conveniently forgot to add they were 3 babies, they were abroad, it was further than 150 feet, they had no view of the apartment, also that they left the doors unlocked and supposedly gave the kids sedatives too. sorry but when you choose to ignore these factors which ultimately lead to the death of a baby girl, then your post is meaningless

[Jesus.]

you conveniently forgot to add they were 3 babies, they were abroad, it was further than 150 feet, they had no view of the apartment, also that they left the doors unlocked and supposedly gave the kids sedatives too. sorry but when you choose to ignore these factors which ultimately lead to the death of a baby girl, then your post is meaningless

I'm pretty sure that the twins would have been tested for sedatives, so if they were clear, then the chances are that Maddie was clear also. Especially considering it was one of the twins that had a problem getting to sleep in the first place.

[Niamh.]

I'm pretty sure that the twins would have been tested for sedatives, so if they were clear, then the chances are that Maddie was clear also. Especially considering it was one of the twins that had a problem getting to sleep in the first place.

Why would they have been? Is that normal in a case of a missing child, to test the siblings for sedatives?

[the truth]

I'm pretty sure that the twins would have been tested for sedatives, so if they were clear, then the chances are that Maddie was clear also. Especially considering it was one of the twins that had a problem getting to sleep in the first place.

chances are? we will never know, because they cant test maddie because her parents , left the doors open in an apartment at night in a foreign country with 3 babies inside? so she either fell , walked out, was taken or whatever, due to grossly negligent parenting at best and at worst\? goodness only knows. they admitted they have done this for years, they also admitted theyd used sedatives on madeline before, she also had trouble sleeping....could she have taken one too many? could they have made her drowsy and fallen over? why are we too scared to even ask?

also the fact their story has often changed. the tv interviews are utterly worthless as there is no interrogation at all. If this expensive investigation is to be all consuming , they should be treated as suspects and grilled thoroughly.

the only victim here is madeleine.

[chuff me dizzy]

Why would they have been? Is that normal in a case of a missing child, to test the siblings for sedatives?

Portuguese police wanted to drug test twins after McCanns said they must have been drugged ,Kate,Gerry refused to let them do it ,they also refused to show bank account details and Maddies medical records

[the truth]

Portuguese police wanted to drug test twins after McCanns said they must have been drugged ,Kate,Gerry refused to let them do it ,they also refused to show bank account details and Maddies medical records

have they shown them yet?

[Jesus.]

Considering they were suspects, they didn't half get away with telling the police what they could/couldn't do.

[Lee.]

Portuguese police wanted to drug test twins after McCanns said they must have been drugged ,Kate,Gerry refused to let them do it ,they also refused to show bank account details and Maddies medical records

Eh? Police don't need permission to access such records during an investigation do they?

[Kizzy]

They were only suspects in portugal, not here I think.

[Niamh.]

Also i don't think they were officially considered suspects till quite awhile after the disappearance

[Z]

They refused to let the twins be tested for months on end, presumably a stalling tactic to get it out of their system. I think you have to remember that they are doctors; they had quite a lot to lose if it transpired that they abused their position as doctors to sedate their children so they could have a quiet holiday. I think that's why they're so keen to deflect blame off themselves over any aspect of the incident.

Are either of them working, incidentally? Have they returned to being doctors?

[chuff me dizzy]

have they shown them yet?

They had it done privetely and TOLD the police it came back negative :shocked: 11 months later ( the time it takes for drugs to leave hair ) Another little bit of odd behaviour this group consisted of many Drs, all well educated people, but when they finally got round to ringing police ,after concocting alibis,deleting phone records , and the police arrived to find 5a ,packed with all tapas lot, Warner staff, thinking that Kate claims she knew instantly Maddie had be taken ,thus contaminating the crime scene

[chuff me dizzy]

They refused to let the twins be tested for months on end, presumably a stalling tactic to get it out of their system. I think you have to remember that they are doctors; they had quite a lot to lose if it transpired that they abused their position as doctors to sedate their children so they could have a quiet holiday. I think that's why they're so keen to deflect blame off themselves over any aspect of the incident.

Are either of them working, incidentally? Have they returned to being doctors?

ALL true, Gerry is back at work, Kate is not

[chuff me dizzy]

They were only suspects in portugal, not here I think.

The whole case in Portugal was helped alongside Uk police who were also deeply involved ,BOTH force came to the same conclusion ,it was Uk Home office crime advisor Lee Rainbow who told the Portuguese police to look at the parents

[Jesus.]

They were made Aguido's 4 months after her disappearance, I believe. I'm pretty sure sedatives remain in the body for at least that long (but I could be wrong about that fact - I do know that other drugs do, though).

So 4 months after Maddie's disappearance, and with the McCanns as suspects, they were able to dictate to the police what they could and couldn't access, and refuse to have the twins tested? This is what the story is?

[Cherie]

the mccanns admitted it on crimewatch....did you not watch the show? them and all their friends did it

I wasn't glued to it, it has to be said. We know they and their friends did it on that holiday and previously, but did they confirm that they continue to leave their children unsupervised?

Can I ask Chuff what exactly is the reason this internet group that you are a part of was set up?

[Vicky.]

Sedatives remain in your body for months? Never knew that. Thought it would be like..a week.

[Z]

Sedatives remain in your body for months? Never knew that. Thought it would be like..a week.

Traces are still in your hair follicles etc, like how dope tests are carried out but can catch people out from months previously.

[Niamh.]

They were made Aguido's 4 months after her disappearance, I believe. I'm pretty sure sedatives remain in the body for at least that long (but I could be wrong about that fact - I do know that other drugs do, though).

So 4 months after Maddie's disappearance, and with the McCanns as suspects, they were able to dictate to the police what they could and couldn't access, and refuse to have the twins tested? This is what the story is?

They left Portugal straight after becoming suspects I think ( I might be wrong about that though)

[Jesus.]

They left Portugal straight after becoming suspects I think ( I might be wrong about that though)

Being able to leave Portugal would have been a condition of bail, and it would have needed to be cleared by the Portuguese justice system. If they wanted to test the children/access their bank accounts, they would have had their passports kept away from them.

[MTVN]

The shortened version is basically, the McCanns originally claimed all windows and doors were locked when they went out and at 10pm what alerted Kate to a problem was the bedroom door slamming shut because of the bedroom window being open because of that she then realised Maddie was not in her bed, this open window is apparently the reason kate immediately thought Maddie had been taken by someone. They told friends immediately after that the abductor must have "jemmied" the shutters on the window. But after the cops examined the room, they concluded that the window had not been tampered with and showed no signs of being opened from the outside. The McCanns then changed their story to being that they'd left the patio door open but that doesn't explain the window

What was locked and what was open? Was there an 'abductor'?

To answer these questions, we need first to look at what was said by the McCanns to family and friends in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance.

Jon Corner, as quoted above, clearly states that Kate had told him that they had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal. In other words both doors, front and patio, were locked.

Trish Cameron recalled that she received a call late that same night from Gerry and she recounted: "Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing... They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine."

Philomena McCann, Gerry's sister said on 04 May: "Some people may ask why they left the children alone in the apartment but it was locked and they had a full view of the front door and they were checking every half hour."

Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV on 04 May: "She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

The clear implication in Jill Renwick's statement is that she couldn't have gone out on her own because the front door and patio doors were locked. Otherwise Madeleine, as an active 4 yr-old, could surely have got out through 'open' patio doors very easily and on her own. She was clearly too small to attempt a climbed escape through a closed and shuttered window.

However, police tests showed the heavy metal shutter had not been forced up from the outside, so must have been pulled open from inside the room.

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for the investigation, confided in British former Chief Inspector Albert Kirby that neither the windows nor their shutters had been tampered with.

What must be appreciated, at this point, is that these comments, from closest family and friends - the first to be contacted, are not Chinese whispers. It is not a case that the McCanns rang one person, who got the message wrong, and this got passed on to everyone else. These are four people who received independent telephone calls from Gerry or Kate, in the hours following the 'abduction', and made independent statements. Yet, the statements all recount the same story. The McCanns' apartment was locked, so the 'abductor' must have gained access via the jemmied shutters and left via the front door.

But this begs the question: How did the abductor get into the apartment if the patio doors were locked and the shutters, as attending officers quickly assessed, had not been forced from the outside?

There now appear to be two problems with the recounted version of events. How did the abductor get in and why was the window open? And it's at that point the story changes, in a crucial way.

It is suddenly revealed that the patio doors to the rear of the apartment were left unlocked. This immediately resolves the problem of how the 'abductor' entered the apartment but it makes the decision to leave their three babies alone, inside an exposed and unlocked apartment, seem almost unbelievable, not to mention grossly negligent.

So, to further justify and soften the decision to leave the doors unlocked, it is 'revealed' that the McCanns and all their friends on the holiday left their patio doors open throughout the evenings for fear of fire.

They also embark on a series of interviews where they repeatedly assert that they are responsible parents and that their decision to leave the children alone was quite normal behaviour. Gerry goes so far as to describe it as no different to leaving them in the house when you go into the garden.

The second problem that now faces the McCanns is that they have committed themselves to an 'open window and shutter' story. Indeed, it is quoted as the very reason Kate knew something was wrong because when she says she opened the patio doors at 10.00pm, the bedroom door slammed shut as a result of the wind running though the apartment.

So, if the abductor clearly didn't enter through the bedroom window, why was it open? The McCanns hadn't opened it, so there could be only one reason. The 'abductor' must have used it to escape from.

It is also vaguely claimed that the front door has curious locks and can only be opened with a key, further strengthening the bizarre decision of the 'abductor' to escape through a window, carrying a child who would surely have woken up.

But why, with access to a front door and an apparently unlocked patio door, would the 'abductor' complicate things, and heighten the risk of detection, by clambering through a window with a heavy metal shutter?

This idea of a complicated 'key-only exit' front door can surely be discounted, as no apartment would be granted a fire certificate if you could only escape through the front door if you had the key. Mark Warner would surely not install doors that could leave them culpable in the event of a fire.

So, we now have the McCanns' insistance that the 'abductor', or 'predator' as he is now referred, was laying in wait, and entered through the open patio doors between checks on the children.

So what can we make of the way the story changed so quickly?

There is only one conclusion to be drawn.

If the patio doors were locked, as Kate and Gerry independently told Brian Healy, Jon Corner, Trish Cameron, Philomena McCann and Jill Renwick, and the window shutters had clearly not been 'jemmied', then there can have been no way into the apartment that evening. And therefore, by deduction, no abductor.

And that, is a very disturbing conclusion.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Hmm according to this (http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077415/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%201), which links to the Portuguese police files, the McCann's said from the start that the patio doors were closed but not locked, and somewhere else on the site it gives a pretty detailed abduction theory (http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/55163729/Abduction%20Theories#Theopenwindow) which gives a few reasons why the window might have been opened:

The open window

Regarded by McCann sceptics as a “red flag” and an attempt by the McCanns to stage an intruder.

We believe there are several reasons why the window might have been opened by an abductor but not actually climbed through:-

As an emergency exit in case he found himself cornered by Gerry McCann (as per above theory)

To check whether the coast was clear since the path was not clearly visible from the recessed front door

To pass a child or stolen goods to an accomplice

As a considered exit route, but then abandoned as impractical

To detract from the fact that the intruder had a key – deflect attention from the person who obtained it (perhaps a member of staff)

To allow the smell of a sedating chemical to dissipate more quickly.

[Niamh.]

Being able to leave Portugal would have been a condition of bail, and it would have needed to be cleared by the Portuguese justice system. If they wanted to test the children/access their bank accounts, they would have had their passports kept away from them.

I thought you only needed bail if you were charged with something?

[Jesus.]

I thought you only needed bail if you were charged with something?

You could well be right about that, but allowing them to return home would have definitely been the choice of the Portuguese legal system, and not G&K. There would have also been conditions placed on allowing them home, and failure to comply would have been like tearing up the agreement. They'd have been escorted back to Portugal in police custody.