Crimewatch,The McCanns

[Kazanne]

The McCanns,are you watching ,if so what do you think:conf:

[Marsh.]

Sorry, no but when your child says "Where were you when we cried last night?" you don't think 'we'll have to watch the door more carefully', you think 'one or both of us is staying in tonight'.

[T*]

:o Someone carrying a child...

[Marsh.]

Now, he notices a door ajar and still leaves them. :bored:

[Kazanne]

Sorry, no but when your child says "Where were you when we cried last night?" you don't think 'we'll have to watch the door more carefully', you think 'one or both of us is staying in tonight'.

Agreed,it's all so weird

[Drew.]

I dont think the parents had anything to do with her going missing but after watching this i'd blame their stupidity for it happening in the first place

[Marsh.]

Now, she closes the door before glancing on the children, only looking again when a gust of wind blew the door shut.

Not saying they're responsible, but as parents they were incredibly naive and silly for such seemingly intelligent people.

[T*]

Agree with drew and 08. This seems quite silly.

[Kazanne]

How can she say she knew straight away that madeleine had gone missing,the child could have got up and wondered off?

[Brother Leon]

The two should be done for negligence. If it was Tracey from Peckham, she would probably lose her other two kids and be in Prison somehwere.

[T*]

Kaz, she said that she checked their bed but she wasn't there.

[Kazanne]

Kaz, she said that she checked their bed but she wasn't there.

I know but how can she state she had been 'taken' she could have wandered off

[Marsh.]

I know but how can she state she had been 'taken' she could have wandered off

Didn't she say missing, not taken?

[Drew.]

I know but how can she state she had been 'taken' she could have wandered off

i guess its instinct.. if you put someone to bed that can hardly keep their eyes open you'll probably suspect the worst if they aren't still in bed.

[Kazanne]

Didn't she say missing, not taken?

She said "I knew then she'de been taken"

[Marsh.]

Ah. See, just terrible, terrible parenting.

Extremely selfish to put your need for fine dining above your children's safety.

[Me. I Am Salman]

Why on earth would you leave your kids alone in a hotel in another country

[Kazanne]

And if there was a night crèche why not use it?

[Ninastar]

I dont think the parents had anything to do with her going missing but after watching this i'd blame their stupidity for it happening in the first place

agreed.

[Marsh.]

So, the identity of that first man carrying the child was not found until this year?

That's ridiculous.

[Brother Leon]

She said "I knew then she'de been taken"

After she saw the curtains and window undone.

[Kazanne]

So, the identity of that first man carrying the child was not found until this year?

That's ridiculous.

Exactly what I thought.

[bbfan1991]

Why on earth would you leave your kids alone in a hotel in another country

Exactly!

[AnnieK]

Its ****ing disgusting they left those children alone....I don't care how safe etc, you never leave children that age unattended..it still makes me mad all these years on.

Disgraceful :mad:

[T*]

Bad Parenting 101

[T*]

And if there was a night crèche why not use it?

whats a night creche?

[bbfan1991]

The only thing that annoys me is that loads of money has gone to help them, of course trying to find out what happened to Madeline or find her if a chance she is still alive is important, but what about those whose loved ones go missing and suffer from a lack of help or resources?

[AnnieK]

The only thing that annoys me is that loads of money has gone to help them, of course trying to find out what happened to Madeline or find her if a chance she is still alive is important, but what about those whose loved ones go missing and suffer from a lack of help or resources?

Yep...rich doctors and then Ben Needhams mum hardly got any coverage...

[Kazanne]

whats a night creche?

A place that look after your children at night and wasn't there babysitters to hire

[AnnieK]

They were neglectful of that little girl...they can dress it up and justify it any way they want. Doesn't wash with me.

[Kazanne]

Yep...rich doctors and then Ben Needhams mum hardly got any coverage...

I feel the same annie she's a lovely little kid but so are all the others that have gone missing.

[T*]

I feel sick. They are being made the good guys when they neglected her. awful parenting.

[Kazanne]

They were neglectful of that little girl...they can dress it up and justify it any way they want. Doesn't wash with me.

:worship::worship:

[Brother Leon]

lol. Those E-Fits could be millions of people.

[Drew.]

lol. Those E-Fits could be millions of people.

yeah i dont trust them at all

[Marsh.]

Yep...rich doctors and then Ben Needhams mum hardly got any coverage...

Yeah, if they were from a council state you can bet they'd have had the twins taken away from them.

[bbfan1991]

Indeed, they were neglectful.

I hope that the Police are not building themselves up and then end up feeling deflated, the phrase ''clutching at straws'' would be appropriate if it happens.

[Drew.]

:suspect:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWkBeo8IQAAYyAG.jpg

[Kazanne]

I hope they find her but feel they never will.

[Kazanne]

:suspect:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWkBeo8IQAAYyAG.jpg

Oh Drew:shocked:

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

the suspect kind of looks like the father and why do they still believe she's alive.do they know something they're not disclosing to the public?

[fingers]

He never smiles

Edit: the usual stony face look is more like the E-Fit.

[Marsh.]

the suspect kind of looks like the father and why do they still believe she's alive.do they know something they're not disclosing to the public?

No, they have hope she's still alive. Big difference.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

:suspect:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWkBeo8IQAAYyAG.jpg

lol i've been thinking the same since I saw the pic on dailymail this morning. :joker: :(

[MTVN]

Think that efit is the fella who cuts my hair

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

No, they have hope she's still alive. Big difference.
especially since in America it seems more often than not now, girls that were abducted get found 10 years on?

[MTVN]

Look at that bald bastard stealing from Dinasaur World

[AnnieK]

Its a really difficult one...on one hand if it were me I would obviously want her to be alive BUT the thought of here being taken by paedophile ring is sickening and thinking she has been in that for 6 years would kill me more..

[AnnieK]

Look at that bald bastard stealing from Dinasaur World

Where's dinosaur world? I want to go (not to nick the takings I might add)

[MTVN]

Where's dinosaur world? I want to go (not to nick the takings I might add)

Torquay I think they said

[user104658]

I feel sick. They are being made the good guys when they neglected her. awful parenting.

I agree; and they never, ever seem to concede that they were in any way to blame. I'm not saying I want them to publicly flog themselves, but they never even say "Look, we did something stupid and paid the ultimate price. Please, parents, learn from this and NEVER become complacent and leave your children alone like we did." Oh no. Every time I hear from them, they were "just unlucky and it could have happened to anyone". Well yes, there's a tiny chance it could happen to anyone, but NO, this scenario could NOT just "happen to anyone". They were careless with their childrens' safety and, FFS, even if she hadn't been snatched they were being emotionally neglectful! Who leaves their kids alone in bed in a strange location?? If my 3-year-old woke up, alone, in a strange room, and we weren't there as soon as she called for us she would be terrified!

The fact is, they weren't looking after her properly and the worst happened. It's simple neglect. And I agree, if they were Jaiden and Tara-Louise from a council estate who decided to go out clubbing, they would have been lynched in the press for what happened. But because it was two doctors out for a meal and some overpriced wine, they're innocent victims. It's insanity.

No matter what happened to her, I'm sure they'll feel pain the rest of their lives for it. And I can't even say that they shouldn't. They failed her, completely.

[bbfan1991]

I hope they find her but feel they never will.

I agree.

They will have to wake up with the regret every day about leaving her alone that day.

[AnnieK]

I agree; and they never, ever seem to concede that they were in any way to blame. I'm not saying I want them to publicly flog themselves, but they never even say "Look, we did something stupid and paid the ultimate price. Please, parents, learn from this and NEVER become complacent and leave your children alone like we did." Oh no. Every time I hear from them, they were "just unlucky and it could have happened to anyone". Well yes, there's a tiny chance it could happen to anyone, but NO, this scenario could NOT just "happen to anyone". They were careless with their childrens' safety and, FFS, even if she hadn't been snatched they were being emotionally neglectful! Who leaves their kids alone in bed in a strange location?? If my 3-year-old woke up, alone, in a strange room, and we weren't there as soon as she called for us she would be terrified!

The fact is, they weren't looking after her properly and the worst happened. It's simple neglect. And I agree, if they were Jaiden and Tara-Louise from a council estate who decided to go out clubbing, they would have been lynched in the press for what happened. But because it was two doctors out for a meal and some overpriced wine, they're innocent victims. It's insanity.

No matter what happened to her, I'm sure they'll feel pain the rest of their lives for it. And I can't even say that they shouldn't. They failed her, completely.

100% agree...

If my 3year old wakes now, in his own bed and I don't hear him the first time he shouts he starts to get upset and he knows his surroundings.

[bbfan1991]

RE this attempted murder in Leicester, could it be mistaken identity?

[Kazanne]

Look at that bald bastard stealing from Dinasaur World

:joker::joker::joker:

[Marsh.]

Its a really difficult one...on one hand if it were me I would obviously want her to be alive BUT the thought of here being taken by paedophile ring is sickening and thinking she has been in that for 6 years would kill me more..

Yeah, I think that would completely destroy me if I were in that position.

100% agree...

If my 3year old wakes now, in his own bed and I don't hear him the first time he shouts he starts to get upset and he knows his surroundings.

Especially since Maddie told them that very morning they'd woken the night before and were crying.

[Kazanne]

Another thing I don't quite understand is If she was taken surely she would have woken up and caused a fuss,the child they show in the media seems to be still asleep!! I know my little one would never stay asleep if a stranger picked him up and went outside with him.

[MTVN]

I agree; and they never, ever seem to concede that they were in any way to blame. I'm not saying I want them to publicly flog themselves, but they never even say "Look, we did something stupid and paid the ultimate price. Please, parents, learn from this and NEVER become complacent and leave your children alone like we did." Oh no. Every time I hear from them, they were "just unlucky and it could have happened to anyone". Well yes, there's a tiny chance it could happen to anyone, but NO, this scenario could NOT just "happen to anyone". They were careless with their childrens' safety and, FFS, even if she hadn't been snatched they were being emotionally neglectful! Who leaves their kids alone in bed in a strange location?? If my 3-year-old woke up, alone, in a strange room, and we weren't there as soon as she called for us she would be terrified!

The fact is, they weren't looking after her properly and the worst happened. It's simple neglect. And I agree, if they were Jaiden and Tara-Louise from a council estate who decided to go out clubbing, they would have been lynched in the press for what happened. But because it was two doctors out for a meal and some overpriced wine, they're innocent victims. It's insanity.

No matter what happened to her, I'm sure they'll feel pain the rest of their lives for it. And I can't even say that they shouldn't. They failed her, completely.

Tbf I don't think it's the same, the restaurant was only 50 yards from their apartment and they were checking on them every half hour, it's more akin to something like going round your neighbours for a meal. And the fact that pretty much everyone in this thread has been agreeing that they were neglectful shows they've not escaped criticism for it, and they did have all sorts of stuff printed about them in the press during the first couple of years of the search. Though I'd say being 'lynched in the press' could hardly add any more pain to that of having your child snatched away and paying the ultimate price for your error anyway

[Vicky.]

****ing heartless bastards. Maddie asked on the morning before she was 'taken' where they were the night before when she was crying. And they still did the same thing again that night. Alcohol is more important than your kids..if this was anyone else, they would be hauled through the courts for child neglect.

I feel sorry for the twins, with parents like that. Willing to leave their baby crying for hours so they can go out with their mates :bored:

[smudgie]

So sad.
No happy ending for anyone here.

The parents were very neglectful, I am thinking they will take the guilt with them to the grave

I am not sure I agree with paying 5 million to try and find out what has happened to her.
Did they not rake in a load of cash from public with their appeals that should pay for it.

[Marsh.]

And checking every half an hour is hardly encouraging either. 30 minutes is a long time.

[Kazanne]

So sad.
No happy ending for anyone here.

The parents were very neglectful, I am thinking they will take the guilt with them to the grave

I am not sure I agree with paying 5 million to try and find out what has happened to her.
Did they not rake in a load of cash from public with their appeals that should pay for it.

Yes they did,it's so wrong when her disppearance was down to their neglect.

[thesheriff443]

if think everyone is being a bit hard on them, we all make mistakes.

[Vicky.]

if think everyone is being a bit hard on them, we all make mistakes.

Sorry but no. No loving parent would leave their kids alone AGAIN the night after they were informed (by their 3 year old!) that their children were crying when alone the night before. It just wouldn't happen.

I was under the impression that this had only happened once (leaving them alone), not that it had been every night of the holiday.

[thesheriff443]

Sorry but no. No loving parent would leave their kids alone the night after they were informed (by their 3 year old!) that their children were crying when alone the night before. It just wouldn't happen.

I was under the impression that this had only happened once (leaving them alone), not that it had been every night of the holiday.

they are paying for their mistake, as a parent my self, its easy to judge others, its the same as leaving your child in the car while you pop into a shop.

[Vicky.]

they are paying for their mistake, as a parent my self, its easy to judge others, its the same as leaving your child in the car while you pop into a shop.

Its nothing like that. Unless you left them in the car with the door open for half an hour.

Can you honestly say you would even consider leave your kids alone in the dark in another country, even after you were informed by your child that they had been crying the night before and noone came?

[GypsyGoth]

Doesn't the guy on the left of this pic look a bit like the efit suspect they want

http://i.imgur.com/AVmVXIN.jpg

[Jemal]

I'll be honest.. Dont judge me. But I have no sympathy for those two parents lol.
None at all..
I do feel for Madeline if she is still alive.. But not those two idiots lol.

HOW can you goto another country and FOR 6 straight days you go out in the night and leave your 3 under aged kids alone in an apartment...
NOT ONLY THAT! BUT on the fifth day of the those 6 straights days of going out in the night to have "dinner", when having breakfast Madeline says 'where were you when we were crying?'

I mean are they physically stupid? Mentally idiotic or?
If my daughter said that to me why in gods name would i go out and leave them EVER again...

So whatever. I hope they find Madeline if she is alive for her sake, couldn't give a flying **** about her parents tbh.

[MTVN]

Personally there's no way would I let having 3 children get between me and a nice meal of tapas

[Kazanne]

Doesn't the guy on the left of this pic look a bit like the efit suspect they want

http://i.imgur.com/AVmVXIN.jpg

Yes,Drew posted a pic of them side by side.maybe Gerry has a brother.

[thesheriff443]

Its nothing like that. Unless you left them in the car with the door open for half an hour.

Can you honestly say you would leave your kids alone in the dark in another country, even after you were informed by your child that they had been crying the night before and noone came?

im saying we all make mistakes. we sleep with the lights off, so do your kids, if you think your kids are going to be safe,other parents had kid and where checking on them but their child did not get kidnapped.

[Vicky.]

im saying we all make mistakes. we sleep with the lights off, so do your kids, if you think your kids are going to be safe,other parents had kid and where checking on them but their child did not get kidnapped.

That makes no difference. I think the other parents were just as stupid and neglectful as the McCanns, however they were 'luckier'.

A mistake would be doing it once. They did it multiple times, even after being pulled up on it by their 3 year old. Why not just pay for he night creche ffs. Not like they were strapped for cash or anything.

Or ever have one adult of the group watching the kids each night.

[Kazanne]

im saying we all make mistakes. we sleep with the lights off, so do your kids, if you think your kids are going to be safe,other parents had kid and where checking on them but their child did not get kidnapped.

In my opinion sheriff ALL those parents were wrong,

[thesheriff443]

That makes no difference. I think the other parents were just as stupid and neglectful as the McCanns, however they were 'luckier'.

you could as easily leave your child at a crèche and them get kidnapped.

[Marsh.]

That makes no difference. I think the other parents were just as stupid and neglectful as the McCanns, however they were 'luckier'.

A mistake would be doing it once. They did it multiple times, even after being pulled up on it by their 3 year old. Why not just pay for he night creche ffs. Not like they were strapped for cash or anything.

Or ever have one adult of the group watching the kids each night.

Yeah, even if they gave the kids a sleepover or something in one apartment with one or two of the adults watching them.

It's was just pure selfishness.

[Vicky.]

you could as easily leave your child at a crèche and them get kidnapped.

However that would be a totally different scenario to being a selfish bastard and putting alcohol/mates before your kids and leaving them alone despite them crying because they were alone the night before, in an unlocked room, in another country. At least they had the grace to check on them every half an hour I guess. Makes it so much better :rolleyes:

[Jemal]

Sheriff are you being serious with everything your posting?
Please tell me your not?

[Vicky.]

Come to think of it, why weren't the Paynes mentioned AT ALL on this new timeline :conf:

[Vicky.]

Sheriff are you being serious with everything your posting?
Please tell me your not?

I sincerely hope not.

[Marsh.]

im saying we all make mistakes. we sleep with the lights off, so do your kids, if you think your kids are going to be safe,other parents had kid and where checking on them but their child did not get kidnapped.

I don't see what relevance the light being off has.

There's being in a locked house WITH your children and leaving them alone in a foreign country, in an apartment accessible from the street out of your eye line whilst you fine dine with a bunch of other parents doing the same to their kids. All of those people were irresponsible and selfish.

Just because their children didn't go missing, doesn't excuse the neglect tbh.

[thesheriff443]

However that would be a totally different scenario to being a selfish bastard and putting alcohol/mates before your kids and leaving them alone despite them crying because they were alone the night before, in an unlocked room, in another country. At least they had the grace to check on them every half an hour I guess. Makes it so much better :rolleyes:

you could be in your own home with your kids and the doors and windows locked, you have a smoke but fail to put it out properly it causes a fire in which your kid dies, another mistake!

[Jemal]

Oh my god.. I cannot with what sheriffs posting atm.. -_-

[Marsh.]

you could be in your own home with your kids and the doors and windows locked, you have a smoke but fail to put it out properly it causes a fire in which your kid dies, another mistake!

That would be your fault for not putting your fag out properly.

But what relevance has it to this?

[GypsyGoth]

Yes,Drew posted a pic of them side by side.maybe Gerry has a brother.

I can see why the parents were the main suspects.

[Marsh.]

Anything can happen to anyone, but that doesn't excuse making it easier for the criminals by leaving your children alone.

Anyone who doesn't understand that is rather dull tbqh.

[thesheriff443]

That would be your fault for not putting your fag out properly.

But what relevance has it to this?

a loving parent making a mistake in their own home as opposed to being on holiday.

[Vicky.]

You honestly see this as just a mistake sheriff?

What about other neglectful parents? How about those who 'forget' to feed their kids and stuff(yes I can bring in totally irrelevant things too). Is that just a mistake too? Obviously you don't think child neglect is a serious matter. Which is quite worrying.

[thesheriff443]

Anything can happen to anyone, but that doesn't excuse making it easier for the criminals by leaving your children alone.

Anyone who doesn't understand that is rather dull tbqh.

yes because when you go to a resort you are thinking about your child being kidnapped, its not the normal thing that goes on holiday, more kids drown in the resort pools than are kidnapped.

[Marsh.]

a loving parent making a mistake in their own home as opposed to being on holiday.

But it's an entirely separate mistake.

Unless you mean deliberately leave a lit fag lying about it's not comparable to knowingly leaving your children (who were practically babies) in an unsecure room in a foreign country whilst you get pissed with friends.

[Marsh.]

yes because when you go to a resort you are thinking about your child being kidnapped, its not the normal thing that goes on holiday, more kids drown in the resort pools than are kidnapped.

You don't have to think about them getting kidnapped.

They are small children abroad, alone at night. They could have a fall, serious accident, wander off into the street. It's neglect.

I'll stop here because I refuse to believe you can't see this.

[thesheriff443]

You honestly see this as just a mistake sheriff?

What about other neglectful parents? How about those who 'forget' to feed their kids and stuff(yes I can bring in totally irrelevant things too). Is that just a mistake too? Obviously you don't think child neglect is a serious matter. Which is quite worrying.

a mistake is different from neglect.

you are trying to be little my opinion by saying things that I have not said or agree with.

[Vicky.]

a mistake is different from neglect.

you are trying to be little my opinion by saying things that I have not said or agree with.

Indeed it is. However in this case, it was definitely neglect and not a mistake.

Anyway, I am with marsh here. I dont believe you actually believe what you are posting and I think you are looking for an argument tbh.

[Jemal]

Im in disbelief at the CRAP (no pun intended) sheriff is posting lmao.

[Marsh.]

Pun? :suspect:

[thesheriff443]

Indeed it is. However in this case, it was definitely neglect and not a mistake.

Anyway, I am with marsh here. I dont believe you actually believe what you are posting and I think you are looking for an argument tbh.

im not looking for an argument or arguing with you or marsh.
we have a difference of opinion.
mcanns where not bad parents, they made a mistake that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

[Vanessa]

I don't think they're bad parents, but i don't understand why they left the kids alone in a foreign country. That's madness.

[thesheriff443]

Im in disbelief at the CRAP (no pun intended) sheriff is posting lmao.

if you cant accept my opinion that's fine, but don't be rude to me!

[Marsh.]

A mistake they made 5 times. Their child already told them they were left scared and crying on night 4, yet they repeated the occurrence on night 5.

That's selfishness plain and simple.

Also because, did they need to wine and dine each and every night of the holiday? They couldn't spare just one night to stay in with the kids?

[Jemal]

I'm not being rude to you, cause i like you as a member.
But my opinion is that what you have been posting is crap lol.

[thesheriff443]

I'm not being rude to you, cause i like you as a member.
But my opinion is that what you have been posting is crap lol.

you are being rude, agree to disagree.

[Z]

Really need to watch this when/if it becomes available online.

[thesheriff443]

A mistake they made 5 times. Their child already told them they were left scared and crying on night 4, yet they repeated the occurrence on night 5.

That's selfishness plain and simple.

Also because, did they need to wine and dine each and every night of the holiday? They couldn't spare just one night to stay in with the kids?

its not easy being a parent, good parents will know this.

[Marsh.]

its not easy being a parent, good parents will know this.

No one said it's easy. But not leaving babies alone in a foreign country is common sense in my book.

Even if you take the threat of kidnap out of the equation, all kinds of accidents could have taken place. What if the crying kid came to look for you and wandered out onto the street (as the apartment wasn't securely locked either)?

[Jemal]

you are being rude, agree to disagree.

How. I have said nothing directed AT YOU. Everything i have said is about the posts you have been making. If your gonna say ive been rude about your posts then so be it.. But if you say I have been rude to YOU, sorry I won't have that cause i know i haven't been rude to you AT ALL.

[GypsyGoth]

Really need to watch this when/if it becomes available online.

Me too.

[Jemal]

Lord knows why they couldn't AT LEAST Get a takeaway and a wine and just have it while the kids were asleep. Then they could get down to business in the bedroom to pass the night away *shrugs*

[user104658]

A mistake is something done accidentally. Leaving their children alone like that was a decision, not a mistake. If it had just been the once I could possibly put it down to being a (seriously) bad judgement call. Good parents can make stupid decisions.


HOWEVER - she asked them where they were the night before, told them that they had been crying, and they CHOSE to go out and do it again?? That's so selfish and emotionally neglectful that it's actually vile. It's genuinely uncaring and cruel. "We know you were upset and crying last night honey but hey, who gives a ****, we're going out again because it's our holiday and we want to :)".

That's not just "bad parenting", that's being a nasty, ****ty person in general. Any adult who would willingly leave a child alone like that again AFTER being told that they were scared and crying the last time - be that their parent or not - is an absolute scumbag.

[GypsyGoth]

It'll be on here, but not sure when http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03dz7yj/Crimewatch_14_10_2013/

[thesheriff443]

How. I have said nothing directed AT YOU. Everything i have said is about the posts you have been making. If your gonna say ive been rude about your posts then so be it.. But if you say I have been rude to YOU, sorry I won't have that cause i know i haven't been rude to you AT ALL.

if you think my posts are crap, you think im talking crap and posting this you are being rude.

[Kazanne]

It'll be on here, but not sure when http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03dz7yj/Crimewatch_14_10_2013/

You should watch it GG,very interesting:hugesmile:

[thesheriff443]

A mistake is something done accidentally. Leaving their children alone like that was a decision, not a mistake. If it had just been the once I could possibly put it down to being a (seriously) bad judgement call. Good parents can make stupid decisions.


HOWEVER - she asked them where they were the night before, told them that they had been crying, and they CHOSE to go out and do it again?? That's so selfish and emotionally neglectful that it's actually vile. It's genuinely uncaring and cruel. "We know you were upset and crying last night honey but hey, who gives a ****, we're going out again because it's our holiday and we want to :)".

That's not just "bad parenting", that's being a nasty, ****ty person in general. Any adult who would willingly leave a child alone like that again AFTER being told that they were scared and crying the last time - be that their parent or not - is an absolute scumbag.
the decision was a mistake, kids wake up and cry that's what kids do.

[user104658]

its not easy being a parent, good parents will know this.

Yes. Good parents know that it's not easy being a parent, and therefore accept that when they go on holiday with their young children, they won't be able to go out at night and leave them unattended. That's WHY it isn't easy.

If you just carry on living like a couple with no kids, taking their safety and happiness for granted, and pop out with your mates for a meal leaving them alone - then parenting DOES sound pretty "easy".

And then it ends like this.

Good parenting isn't easy because good parents sacrifice things like social gatherings in order to look after their kids.

[Jemal]

Man i give up. Whatever.

[user104658]

the decision was a mistake, kids wake up and cry that's what kids do.

I have kids. I know they wake up and cry. And that's why I'm never more than 2 rooms away to go and comfort them.

Are you seriously saying "kids wake up and cry" and so it's OK for you to be nowhere to be found? Possibly not coming back for HALF AN HOUR? They can just deal with it, accept that they are alone (in a strange bed, in another country no less) and that's fine?

[Marsh.]

the decision was a mistake, kids wake up and cry that's what kids do.

Kids waking up terrified because they're alone in a house is something very different.

Crying because of a nightmare you can't control, crying because they're in strange surroundings.

Madeleine was left alone with TWO BABIES. There's no excuse. As Madeleine herself said, she didn't even know where the parents were. She wasn't to know they were just around the corner having a nice time, it's cruel.

[Brother Leon]

It wasn't a mistake. It was **** parenting. In fact, if by some miracle she was found alive they shouldn't get her back as their **** parenting put her in danger int he first place. I would never leave my niece alone when looking after her and go out for more than an hour or so at night and If I did my sister certainly would not see it as some sort of honest mistake..she would knock the stuffing out of me lol.

[Z]

I haven't seen the program yet but have been reading the responses in here... why are they letting all of this dirty laundry be aired for the sake of a TV program that in all likelihood isn't going to achieve anything because the crime was committed 6 years ago? All I can think is that they want people to hate them so that they keep talking about them. Bizarre, they're seeking negative attention.

[Kazanne]

I could never enjoy a meal and drinks with friends if my 3 babies were alone and I could never do it especially in a foreign country where the people around them are strangers,,I flap when my little one is in his cot asleep and I hang the washing out.

[Vicky.]

I honestly dont understand why the lot of them took the kids at all if they wanted it to be an adults holiday...which they obviously did given what they did.

If I wanted to go on holiday with friends and go out every night, I would leave the kids with grandparents/family. Not just abandon the kids alone when I fancied it. And if there was noone to watch them, I either wouldn't go, or I would sacrifice my nights on the piss. And I would hope all other parents would have the sense to do the same..obviously not :shrug:

[Vicky.]

the decision was a mistake, kids wake up and cry that's what kids do.

There should always be someone there to comfort them though. Yes kids wake up and cry, but it is unreasonable to expect them to just cry themselves back to sleep because you are out having a good time.

[user104658]

I honestly dont understand why the lot of them took the kids at all if they wanted it to be an adults holiday...which they obviously did given what they did.

If I wanted to go on holiday with friends and go out every night, I would leave the kids with grandparents/family. Not just abandon the kids alone when I fancied it. And if there was noone to watch them, I either wouldn't go, or I would sacrifice my nights on the piss. And I would hope all other parents would have the sense to do the same..obviously not :shrug:

Exactly - if you want a family holiday, go on a family holiday, and spend it doing the usual family stuff you would do at home (unless they were in the habit of popping out to the pub and leaving them at home alone? God knows...).

IF you want a holiday as a couple (which I personally think is a bit much to expect when you have 3 kids under the age of 3 anyway, but maybe that's just me) then just bloody admit it and either ask a family member, or pay a nanny, to look after them for a week at home.

[Vanessa]

I honestly dont understand why the lot of them took the kids at all if they wanted it to be an adults holiday...which they obviously did given what they did.

If I wanted to go on holiday with friends and go out every night, I would leave the kids with grandparents/family. Not just abandon the kids alone when I fancied it. And if there was noone to watch them, I either wouldn't go, or I would sacrifice my nights on the piss. And I would hope all other parents would have the sense to do the same..obviously not :shrug:

I agree. That would have been better.

[Jemal]

I'm not a parent yet but even i know the rights and wrongs.. I cannot with the posts I've been reading, basically defending the parens lol.

[Vicky.]

WyJwns_MTok

For greg, and claudia, and anyone else who missed it.

[user104658]

I'm not a parent yet but even i know the rights and wrongs.. I cannot with the posts I've been reading, basically defending the parens lol.

I find the excuses for them ridiculous but, me and my partner ran a parenting forum for nearly 4 years and genuinely nothing surprises me any more. I've seen people genuinely, sincerely, discussing something called "monitor minding" - which is, essentially, leaving a baby or toddler alone in your house and going out, with a neighbour keeping a baby monitor. This is somehow considered acceptable. People also manage to defend things like locking toddlers in a room screaming until they fall asleep huddled in a ball next to the door. That's not cruel either apparently.

When people started defending the practice of sedating perfectly healthy children on long-haul flights... we just gave up and shut the whole forum down. I just don't understand people, at all.

And that's why I have absolutely no problem believing that the McCanns tried sedating their kids (probably because she told them they'd woken up crying the night before), she woke up, fell and died, and they covered it up. There are huge amounts of forensic evidence that support this; evidence of pooled blood in the apartment, evidence of a dead body in the apartment, evidence of a dead body on one of Madeleine's toys and a t-shirt (and Kate McCann's clothing), evidence of blood and a body in their rental car. I'm sick of hearing about it.

I'm devastated for poor Maddie, whose life was undoubtedly cut tragically short, but it enrages me that however you look at it the whole thing is just another story of selfishness and neglect. The media won't admit it because it's "unthinkable" that two white, middle class, high income doctors fall into this category... even if the above theory isn't true.

[Jemal]

So there's no chance Madeleine is alive?

[Vicky.]

Never before have I seen such a reaction to crimewatch...twitter is manic. One thats getting posted a lot is

http://s22.postimg.org/qa0u4ajdd/efittiwtter.png

I think this 'reconstruction' might have had the opposite effect to what the McCanns would have liked...

[GypsyGoth]

I shouldn't laugh but :laugh2:

[Kazanne]

Never before have I seen such a reaction to crimewatch...twitter is manic. One thats getting posted a lot is

http://s22.postimg.org/qa0u4ajdd/efittiwtter.png

I think this 'reconstruction' might have had the opposite effect to what the McCanns would have liked...

Poor Gerry will be dying his hair now:shocked:

[Brother Leon]

The funniest thing was the written description they gave for the person. Was something like.

"White male aged 20-40. Medium Build,Brown Hair. Clean shaven."

You could just imagine millions of people trying to grow facial hair.

[Kazanne]

Well whoever this man is he will now know the whole world is looking for him so will change his appearance and lay low.

[Jemal]

Tbfair to that crap father, when the proposed person was seen walking to the beach with a girl he was looking for Madeline with his crap motherly wife. So i guess that rules him out.
That timeline is so important cause it shows that the parents had nothing to do with it.

[Kizzy]

I thought one of the criticisms of them is that initially neither joined in the search?
I missed this will have to hope it's on YT.

[Z]

Thanks for the link Vicky, just watched it there.

Kizzy: WyJwns_MTok

[Nedusa]

I find the excuses for them ridiculous but, me and my partner ran a parenting forum for nearly 4 years and genuinely nothing surprises me any more. I've seen people genuinely, sincerely, discussing something called "monitor minding" - which is, essentially, leaving a baby or toddler alone in your house and going out, with a neighbour keeping a baby monitor. This is somehow considered acceptable. People also manage to defend things like locking toddlers in a room screaming until they fall asleep huddled in a ball next to the door. That's not cruel either apparently.

When people started defending the practice of sedating perfectly healthy children on long-haul flights... we just gave up and shut the whole forum down. I just don't understand people, at all.

And that's why I have absolutely no problem believing that the McCanns tried sedating their kids (probably because she told them they'd woken up crying the night before), she woke up, fell and died, and they covered it up. There are huge amounts of forensic evidence that support this; evidence of pooled blood in the apartment, evidence of a dead body in the apartment, evidence of a dead body on one of Madeleine's toys and a t-shirt (and Kate McCann's clothing), evidence of blood and a body in their rental car. I'm sick of hearing about it.

I'm devastated for poor Maddie, whose life was undoubtedly cut tragically short, but it enrages me that however you look at it the whole thing is just another story of selfishness and neglect. The media won't admit it because it's "unthinkable" that two white, middle class, high income doctors fall into this category... even if the above theory isn't true.

I agree, in fact I have said this in earlier posts, I think it was a tragic accident that has grown into this sad saga , if the parents keep trying to convince the world and it's dog that Maddie was abducted then perhaps they might convince themselves that's what happened.

But I think there is substantial circumstantial evidence that supports the accidental death theory.

Very sad for the parents , a bit of a living nightmare with no end in sight for the McCanns , sadly this will never end even when the trust fund money runs out..!!

[CaudleHalbard]

This is quite a long documentary (52 mins) but essential viewing, IMO, for anyone interested in the Madeleine McCann case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_ZdDTsFC2g

It is based on the book that the McCanns are now suing about. However the forensic and other evidence is pretty compelling.

The documentary's conclusion is that Maddie actually died on the night she was supposedly abducted as a result of an accident which occurred in the McCanns holiday apartment.

Have a look and draw your own conclusions.

[Ammi]

...I find this still such a difficult one...I've never been able to understand how they could leave such young children alone..and watching last night, I hadn't known that the previous evening, Madeleine had actually said she'd woken up and they weren't there...and the left her again..?..just really bizarre behaviour...but then if they didn't harm her as such/know more about her disappearance..they've not only had to live through guilt about leaving her but also the criticisms/suspicions of the world and if they are 'innocent' of any physical harm then I can't imagine how that must feel either....

..interestingly though after the Crimewatch bit about Madeleine I switched over to something called ..'benefits, loud and proud..'..or something like that, I can't remember the exact name..I only caught the last 10 minutes or so but I think maybe it was about people who are on benefits and perceived to be 'milking the system'...?...anyway, there this family were talking about changes/building works proposed to their house and their children were running around, laughing, playing in the paddling pool..just generally being children and doing the things children do...and there were their parents with them..being there to watch out for them and making sure they don't have accidents etc and generally doing what parents do...but yeah, if that family had left their children alone in an apartment in a foreign country while they had a night out and one of them went missing...the other children would be taken into care within a blink of an eye....

[Natalie.]

I don't understand how they thought it was ok to leave them once alone at night in another country let alone more times and after she asked where they were when she and her sibling cried.It just doesn't make sense and they're obviously not stupid, I'm not a parent but that would worry me that I wasn't near them to look after them even if they woke from a bad dream.

Can't believe they put drinks and mates before their kids. Do I remember correctly that she wasn't going to check until the wind blew door open? All this being said I hope she is found well, doubtful though

[thesheriff443]

I find the excuses for them ridiculous but, me and my partner ran a parenting forum for nearly 4 years and genuinely nothing surprises me any more. I've seen people genuinely, sincerely, discussing something called "monitor minding" - which is, essentially, leaving a baby or toddler alone in your house and going out, with a neighbour keeping a baby monitor. This is somehow considered acceptable. People also manage to defend things like locking toddlers in a room screaming until they fall asleep huddled in a ball next to the door. That's not cruel either apparently.

When people started defending the practice of sedating perfectly healthy children on long-haul flights... we just gave up and shut the whole forum down. I just don't understand people, at all.

And that's why I have absolutely no problem believing that the McCanns tried sedating their kids (probably because she told them they'd woken up crying the night before), she woke up, fell and died, and they covered it up. There are huge amounts of forensic evidence that support this; evidence of pooled blood in the apartment, evidence of a dead body in the apartment, evidence of a dead body on one of Madeleine's toys and a t-shirt (and Kate McCann's clothing), evidence of blood and a body in their rental car. I'm sick of hearing about it.

I'm devastated for poor Maddie, whose life was undoubtedly cut tragically short, but it enrages me that however you look at it the whole thing is just another story of selfishness and neglect. The media won't admit it because it's "unthinkable" that two white, middle class, high income doctors fall into this category... even if the above theory isn't true.

the top police in the country have investigated this with a fine tooth comb, do you think if there was the slightest piece of evidence that would make the parents suspects they would go thru with the crime watch program

to say this crime is being covered up because they are white middle class is an absolute joke on your part.

[Cherie]

its not easy being a parent, good parents will know this.

No its not easy its the hardest thing in the world, but I can never get my head around two parents leaving their babies in an unlocked apartment while they dined out of view and on the other side of a swimming pool. What parent has hasn't put their child to bed and found them downstairs ten minutes later saying they needed a drink or felt unwell? I cannot understand leaving them at all especially after what Madeline said that morning. I am coming round to the fact that maybe the children were sedated because I can't see how they could be so complacent otherwise.

[Kazanne]

I thought one of the criticisms of them is that initially neither joined in the search?
I missed this will have to hope it's on YT.

Yes,I got that too and never heard any of them looked for her.

[MTVN]

Tbh I don't think what the McCann's did is that rare at all, like a lot of hotels offer things like baby listening services so that parents can leave their kids in the rooms once they've gone to sleep, is that really that much different or any more effective than checking on them every half hour?

[Niamh.]

I agree; and they never, ever seem to concede that they were in any way to blame. I'm not saying I want them to publicly flog themselves, but they never even say "Look, we did something stupid and paid the ultimate price. Please, parents, learn from this and NEVER become complacent and leave your children alone like we did." Oh no. Every time I hear from them, they were "just unlucky and it could have happened to anyone". Well yes, there's a tiny chance it could happen to anyone, but NO, this scenario could NOT just "happen to anyone". They were careless with their childrens' safety and, FFS, even if she hadn't been snatched they were being emotionally neglectful! Who leaves their kids alone in bed in a strange location?? If my 3-year-old woke up, alone, in a strange room, and we weren't there as soon as she called for us she would be terrified!

The fact is, they weren't looking after her properly and the worst happened. It's simple neglect. And I agree, if they were Jaiden and Tara-Louise from a council estate who decided to go out clubbing, they would have been lynched in the press for what happened. But because it was two doctors out for a meal and some overpriced wine, they're innocent victims. It's insanity.

No matter what happened to her, I'm sure they'll feel pain the rest of their lives for it. And I can't even say that they shouldn't. They failed her, completely.

yep exactly, I said this in the other thread as well, but if my 9 year old woke up in the middle of the night and we weren't there he'd be terrified. I just can't understand any parent ever thinking leaving kids that young alone was ok, ever. I mean her kids were still babies really. I wouldn't even do it with my 9 year old. And I do really feel for parents who've had their kids taken, when they took their eyes off them for a few minutes or whatever, that i can understand, but going out for dinner and leaving babies alone and especially when one of them had woken up and been upset by it the night before, it's gross neglect

[Z]

Tbh I don't think what the McCann's did is that rare at all, like a lot of hotels offer things like baby listening services so that parents can leave their kids in the rooms once they've gone to sleep, is that really that much different or any more effective than checking on them every half hour?

I think both things are shockingly irresponsible, but no, they're not very different. I've said this in threads about this case before, my parents once left me and my younger brother in a locked hotel room so they could go and celebrate my mum's 40th birthday, I'd have been about 7 and my brother would have been 3 or 4 years old. They put us to bed and went downstairs for the evening. Obviously nothing bad happened to us but I suppose my parents would be under the exact same criticism if this had happened to them. The difference I suppose was that we weren't on the ground floor and the room was definitely secured.

I still feel sorry for them more than anything and I feel sorry for Kate McCann that people are criticising her emotional responses to what's happened to her - not many people have experienced what they have, how can anyone say she's not responding in the right way? She's lost her little girl and hasn't seen her for 6 years. If they are ever reunited, they're not going to know each other, her daughter has been growing up in god knows what kind of conditions for the last 6 years, possibly going through the worst kind of hell, she won't be educated, she won't be well cared for... how can she ever return to a normal family life after all of this? And that's if she's even alive... I just feel sorry for them, they're never going to get any closure, it's like she disappeared off the face of the planet.

[Niamh.]

No one said it's easy. But not leaving babies alone in a foreign country is common sense in my book.

Even if you take the threat of kidnap out of the equation, all kinds of accidents could have taken place. What if the crying kid came to look for you and wandered out onto the street (as the apartment wasn't securely locked either)?

:worship: Exactly.

[Niamh.]

WyJwns_MTok

For greg, and claudia, and anyone else who missed it.

Oh thanks Vicky, I'm going to watch this later

[Vanessa]

I think accidental death is a possibility. :suspect:

[Marsh.]

Can't believe they put drinks and mates before their kids. Do I remember correctly that she wasn't going to check until the wind blew door open? All this being said I hope she is found well, doubtful though

I found that odd in the reconstruction, she went to close the door but it was only when the door was slammed shut by the wind that she actually looked at the bed and saw Maddie had gone.

[Marsh.]

Well whoever this man is he will now know the whole world is looking for him so will change his appearance and lay low.

True. But also, after 6 years he may have changed beyond all recognition regardless too.

I mean, looking at my passport photo from January 2007 and I look like a completely different person now.

[Vicky.]

How can the head of our "crack squad of detectives" tell us with a straight face, that a burglar, when being disturbed decides to take a 3 year old child as well. Is this a common occurrence ?

or

A professional team of child abductors see a young child who they think their customers would like. They case the joint for several days, then they make their move. They jemmy a shutter for no reason, take the child and walk half way around town to their get-away car.

My dads fb status. This is someone who worked with the police for 40 years until retiring recently last year

Agree with him completely tbh

[Niamh.]

My dads fb status. This is someone who worked with the police for 40 years until retiring recently last year

Agree with him completely tbh

If the McCanns were responsible for Maddies death/disappearance though how sick is it that they keep bringing it up and actually are making money out of it. I think you'd have to be some kind of sociopath to do that

[Vicky.]

If the McCanns were responsible for Maddies death/disappearance though how sick is it that they keep bringing it up and actually are making money out of it. I think you'd have to be some kind of sociopath to do that

I'm not sure 'the McCanns' are. The father however..

I think the mother was negligent, no question. But I think the father has so much more to do with this than the official line tells us.

Which is why I find it so interesting about the other sighting being thrown out, and the newer sighting being the one that matters. Especially given that the Irish blokes original statement was that he was 60-80% sure that the guy he saw with the child was Gerry (after seeing the photo of Gerry carrying one of the twins off the plane in the exact same hold)

[DrunkerThanMoses]

Have they still not admitted they killed her and covered it up?

[Niamh.]

I'm not sure 'the McCanns' are. The father however..

I think the mother was negligent, no question. But I think the father has so much more to do with this than the official line tells us.

Which is why I find it so interesting about the other sighting being thrown out, and the newer sighting being the one that matters. Especially given that the Irish blokes original statement was that he was 60-80% sure that the guy he saw with the child was Gerry (after seeing the photo of Gerry carrying one of the twins off the plane in the exact same hold)

That new efit photo looks very like Gerry also

[Marsh.]

I'm not sure 'the McCanns' are. The father however..

I think the mother was negligent, no question. But I think the father has so much more to do with this than the official line tells us.

Which is why I find it so interesting about the other sighting being thrown out, and the newer sighting being the one that matters. Especially given that the Irish blokes original statement was that he was 60-80% sure that the guy he saw with the child was Gerry (after seeing the photo of Gerry carrying one of the twins off the plane in the exact same hold)

Do you know, I don't like saying it, but that thought crossed my mind during Crimewatch. In the pre-recorded and the live interview he was always the calm and collected one, whilst she seemed the most raw and emotional.

Not saying that he needs to be shedding tears or react in a certain way. But she always talks about how "as Gerry said" and how he's the one who refused to feel guilty, he pulled her out of her sorrow because Maddie wouldn't want them to shoulder the blame etc.

The only thing that doubts this though is the fact that one of their friends checked on Maddie at 9.30pm and then it was only when Kate went to check at 10pm that she raised the alarm. No mention of Gerry having gone anywhere from the restaurant between those times.

But then how long after Kate entered the apartment until the police arrived?

[Samm]

I have been flowing this since may 2007 I don't blame the parent's everybody makes mistakes and I was on C5 news yesterday and the people who live in the town in Portugal where Madeline went missing they just wanted it to stop because it has a bad effect on the era I was so angry they should to all they can to find clues if a child went missing in my era I would want them to carry on search the era for clues. I still believe that Madeline is alive when they find the person who did it He will be hated worldwide.

[Samm]

Have they still not admitted they killed her and covered it up?

:bored: :nono:

[Vicky.]

Do you know, I don't like saying it, but that thought crossed my mind during Crimewatch. In the pre-recorded and the live interview he was always the calm and collected one, whilst she seemed the most raw and emotional.

Not saying that he needs to be shedding tears or react in a certain way. But she always talks about how "as Gerry said" and how he's the one who refused to feel guilty, he pulled her out of her sorrow because Maddie wouldn't want them to shoulder the blame etc.

The only thing that doubts this though is the fact that one of their friends checked on Maddie at 9.30pm and then it was only when Kate went to check at 10pm that she raised the alarm. No mention of Gerry having gone anywhere from the restaurant between those times.

But then how long after Kate entered the apartment until the police arrived?Took them nearly an hour to contact police after discovering she was gone.

Their friend who checked on them didnt actually see the kids..just checked for noise (same as Kate was going to do before door clammed)

[Jesus.]

I don't get why the Mcanns are seriously being thought of as murderers. Negligently poor parents, but I really don't think there is anything overly sinister about them.

[Jesus.]

Took them nearly an hour to contact police after discovering she was gone.

Their friend who checked on them didnt actually see the kids..just checked for noise (same as Kate was going to do before door clammed)

So in the confusion of wondering where she might be, they quickly searched the local places around the apartment and didn't phone the police. It's really unfair to suggest in times of severe stress that they didn't act normally.

[Marsh.]

Took them nearly an hour to contact police after discovering she was gone.

Their friend who checked on them didnt actually see the kids..just checked for noise (same as Kate was going to do before door clammed)

Well there you go then. Granted, they could have just been looking around the complex, but a full hour?

And the presenter said the man spotted with a child was headed towards the beach, which kind of brings to mind some terrible ideas.

The investigation was bungled so much though from the start that anything could have happened really. The family being monitored over their 4 nightly trips to the restaurant and then abductors seizing their opportunity on night 5 sounds a strong possibility too.

And I keep having that point come back which is if they were responsible one way or another why would they continue to waste police time and get themselves in the media 6 years on? It's a baffling incident to say the least.

[Marsh.]

I don't get why the Mcanns are seriously being thought of as murderers. Negligently poor parents, but I really don't think there is anything overly sinister about them.

I wouldn't say anyone thinks they're murderers. But more that Maddie had an accident whilst left alone in the apartment and they covered it up.

[Jesus.]

I wouldn't say anyone thinks they're murderers. But more that Maddie had an accident whilst left alone in the apartment and they covered it up.

How is that the simplest explanation for anything? So their daughter had an accident?

Was this whilst they were having dinner?

So at some point, they realise she's dead, and instead of collapsing into grief, they think about how they can cover their arses? I don't buy that they are that kind of people, because it would take a very particular kind of person to do that.

Sometimes bad things happen that can't be explained.

[Vicky.]

So in the confusion of wondering where she might be, they quickly searched the local places around the apartment and didn't phone the police. It's really unfair to suggest in times of severe stress that they didn't act normally.
I never said it was odd that they didnt phone to police immediately or anything. It makes sense to check around first IMO. I just answered a question about how long it took for the police to arrive...

[Marsh.]

How is that the simplest explanation for anything? So their daughter had an accident?

Was this whilst they were having dinner?

So at some point, they realise she's dead, and instead of collapsing into grief, they think about how they can cover their arses? I don't buy that they are that kind of people, because it would take a very particular kind of person to do that.

Sometimes bad things happen that can't be explained.

I never said it was the simplest explanation, nor one I think with any certainty is what happened.

BIB - That's just the same as people who questioned their body language during their original TV appeals. You're presuming certain people behave in certain ways. Truth is, there's no way of knowing.

[Vicky.]

Well there you go then. Granted, they could have just been looking around the complex, but a full hour?

And the presenter said the man spotted with a child was headed towards the beach, which kind of brings to mind some terrible ideas.

The investigation was bungled so much though from the start that anything could have happened really. The family being monitored over their 4 nightly trips to the restaurant and then abductors seizing their opportunity on night 5 sounds a strong possibility too.

And I keep having that point come back which is if they were responsible one way or another why would they continue to waste police time and get themselves in the media 6 years on? It's a baffling incident to say the least.I'm not sure on that part to be honest. Thats what our police said. The Portuguese investigation seems quite sound. They had the info on what the Smiths saw years ago(they took statements not long after she disappeared)..yet for some reason our police have only decided its worthy now? Seems to me the investigation was botched once it was turned to our police :/

[Jesus.]

I never said it was the simplest explanation, nor one I think with any certainty is what happened.

BIB - That's just the same as people who questioned their body language during their original TV appeals. You're presuming certain people behave in certain ways. Truth is, there's no way of knowing.

I do think certain people behave in certain ways. A grieving parent would have to be a very specific kind of person to think about proving a cover story first, and grieving second.

It's not that I don't think anyone is capable of it, I just think the number that are capable of dealing with the death of their child like that is minuscule, and would put them at the socio/psycho path end of the spectrum.

Innocent until proven guilty, and no one has anything remotely resembling proof or evidence.

[Marsh.]

I'm not sure on that part to be honest. Thats what our police said. The Portuguese investigation seems quite sound. They had the info on what the Smiths saw years ago(they took statements not long after she disappeared)..yet for some reason our police have only decided its worthy now? Seems to me the investigation was botched once it was turned to our police :/

It's hard to know really, there's so many conflicting bits of info. The fact the man seen by the Tanner woman was only identified this year is a joke IMO.

[Marsh.]

Innocent until proven guilty, and no one has anything remotely resembling proof or evidence.

Is this aimed at me? I'm not claiming they're guilty. We're just discussing what we saw/heard from the reconstruction of the night's events.

[Jesus.]

Is this aimed at me? I'm not claiming they're guilty. We're just discussing what we saw/heard from the reconstruction of the night's events.

No, I know you weren't claiming them to be guilty at all. I was merely stating what the position of everyone should be, but I wasn't having a go at you.

[Marsh.]

In that case, yes I agree.

[Josy]

I do think it's odd the way they reacted immediately after she 'went missing' tbh.

Her parents never once went out to search anywhere for her they chose instead to sit and write out timelines? as far as we have been told anyway.

I also think it's weird that Kate left the twins sleeping in the apartment alone and ran back to the tapas bar to shout "They have taken her", why not shout from the window? and who are they? it shocked me that those other 2 kids were left alone in the apartment their sister had been taken from, any abductors could still have been in there for all she knew.

Theres so many questions but it's one of these things where we are never going to know the truth of what happened imo.

Something that bugged me during the reconstruction though, we saw both Kate and Gerry putting the kids into bed and closing the door but leaving it open slightly before they left the apartment, when Gerry went back to check the first time the door was wide open a lot more than they had left it but Maddie was still in her bed at this point, could there have been someone actually in the apartment at this time???

[Z]

I do think certain people behave in certain ways. A grieving parent would have to be a very specific kind of person to think about proving a cover story first, and grieving second.

It's not that I don't think anyone is capable of it, I just think the number that are capable of dealing with the death of their child like that is minuscule, and would put them at the socio/psycho path end of the spectrum.

Innocent until proven guilty, and no one has anything remotely resembling proof or evidence.

I agree with you, but I think people believe them to be capable of such a thing because they were so negligent in the first place, like having three children was a burden on their relaxing getaway - hence putting the kids to bed so the grown ups could go have fun. Seeing as all of the other couples were doing it too, I suppose they thought it was okay and safe to do so. Safety in numbers.

I think there's a lot of credibility in the idea that they were being watched by a small team of people who struck on the 5th night once they'd established the pattern. If the couples were getting up every half an hour to check on the kids and they've been watching them for 4 nights and have established this pattern, they'd know they have maybe a 20 minute window between each check because the adults would walk there, check there was no noise and walk back again.

It's like something out of a James Bond film, simple reconnaissance. They force open the window, take the 3 year old because she fits the description of what they're looking for and make off into the night with her. It was probably quite amateur in its execution - these are probably guys who are quite poor and this is how they earn money by scouting young girls, stealing them and selling them on, hence not having a getaway car or it being a massive team of people, probably just two guys who are making ends meet because aside from "paradise resorts" like the one the McCanns were staying in, Portugal is riddled with poverty and I'd imagine these guys were in that position too. It's more common than people would like to think, but when it's the daughter of affluent British doctors who have the money to keep her name out there in the media, plus her being a cute, white little girl, of course it's a major media news story...

I don't know if she's still alive or not. I would hope that if she is still alive, she is still young enough that these memories can be repressed and she can lead a normal life if she is found in the near future, and these recent cases of people being found years after they go missing does give some hope... but I just don't know, I think with her high profile she becomes too risky to keep alive, sadly... unlike if she was a little girl from rural Lithuania whose parents don't have the money to even get a newspaper to run a story about her.

[Niamh.]

I do think it's odd the way they reacted immediately after she 'went missing' tbh.

Her parents never once went out to search anywhere for her they chose instead to sit and write out timelines? as far as we have been told anyway.

I also think it's weird that Kate left the twins sleeping in the apartment alone and ran back to the tapas bar to shout "They have taken her", why not shout from the window? and who are they? it shocked me that those other 2 kids were left alone in the apartment their sister had been taken from, any abductors could still have been in there for all she knew.

Theres so many questions but it's one of these things where we are never going to know the truth of what happened imo.

Something that bugged me during the reconstruction though, we saw both Kate and Gerry putting the kids into bed and closing the door but leaving it open slightly before they left the apartment, when Gerry went back to check the first time the door was wide open a lot more than they had left it but Maddie was still in her bed at this point, could there have been someone actually in the apartment at this time???

Also, for her first thought to be that someone had "taken her" is a bit odd Like I think my first thought if I'd left a toddler alone in an apartment with the door unlocked was that they'd woken up and wandered off to try and find me

[Z]

Also, for her first thought to be that someone had "taken her" is a bit odd Like I think my first thought if I'd left a toddler alone in an apartment with the door unlocked was that they'd woken up and wandered off to try and find me

I think my first thought would be that she'd been kidnapped, if the window was open, though...

[arista]

"could there have been someone actually in the apartment at this time??? "

Yes Josy anything is possible.


But loads of kids are missing
they do not get on every TV News



I would prefer real news
on this not
it staying 6 years and all with no
solid updates

[Niamh.]

I think my first thought would be that she'd been kidnapped, if the window was open, though...

I don't think I would, especially if the other two children were still in the room

[Josy]

Nah I agree with Niamh, my first thought would be that she had woken up again like the night before and wandered.

[Cherie]

But the later sighting of someone carrying a child would put Gerry having dinner with his friends wouldn't it :conf:

[Z]

I don't think I would, especially if the other two children were still in the room

Nah I agree with Niamh, my first thought would be that she had woken up again like the night before and wandered.

Yeah but if you're a worst-case-scenario person like I am (and I believe Kate McCann is too) then your mind jumps to the worst possible conclusion... and unfortunately in this case, she was right to think so. If you have unscrupulous men looking to kidnap toddlers to sell into the sex trade, they're not going to take babies, they're going to take toddlers. I'm of the opinion that the people who took her are not the people who have her right now, I believe they were just middle men who go out and do the dirty work and then sell the victims onto someone. It's quite possible they kidnapped her, took her to the beach and someone in a boat sped off to an unknown location. If the kids were sedated, as has been suggested in this thread (there was no mention of that in the Crimewatch report that I noticed but I'm assuming that it's been reported somewhere else?) then Madeleine wouldn't have even put up a struggle, she could well have been asleep the entire time if she'd been drugged by her parents.

Just a combination of sloppy negligent parenting and awful, tragic coincidence.

[thesheriff443]

"could there have been someone actually in the apartment at this time??? "

Yes Josy anything is possible.


But loads of kids are missing
they do not get on every TV News



I would prefer real news
on this not
it staying 6 years and all with no
solid updates

if it was your child, you would want it on the news everyday until you had news.

[Z]

Another thing to consider is that the people who took her may well have been murdered or committed suicide once the case became a global news story, I'm sure it can't be great for your conscience if you're kidnapping little kids from their families to make your money; if they were working for an employer, they may well have been taken out because they posed a risk to the crime ring if they were caught by the police. I've studied human trafficking fairly extensively, this is all quite possible.

[arista]

if it was your child, you would want it on the news everyday until you had news.


No I am not that Greedy

[thesheriff443]

No I am not that Greedy

a strange choice of words!
your allowed to be selfish when its your child.

[arista]

a strange choice of words!
your allowed to be selfish when its your child.


WRONG


The Police contact you with All Updates
NOT the FECKING TV NEWS

[Josy]

Yeah but if you're a worst-case-scenario person like I am (and I believe Kate McCann is too) then your mind jumps to the worst possible conclusion... and unfortunately in this case, she was right to think so. If you have unscrupulous men looking to kidnap toddlers to sell into the sex trade, they're not going to take babies, they're going to take toddlers. I'm of the opinion that the people who took her are not the people who have her right now, I believe they were just middle men who go out and do the dirty work and then sell the victims onto someone. It's quite possible they kidnapped her, took her to the beach and someone in a boat sped off to an unknown location. If the kids were sedated, as has been suggested in this thread (there was no mention of that in the Crimewatch report that I noticed but I'm assuming that it's been reported somewhere else?) then Madeleine wouldn't have even put up a struggle, she could well have been asleep the entire time if she'd been drugged by her parents.

Just a combination of sloppy negligent parenting and awful, tragic coincidence.

Zee I honestly think if she was a worst case scenario type of person then there is no way at all she would have left her children in that apartment by themselves, she would know of the dangers of leaving them alone like that.

Running to the restaurant and shouting they have taken her is a really odd thing to do imo even if she was in shock.

[James]

I don't know if I have misunderstood the facts here, but isn't it the case that for the parents to be involved in their daughter's disappearance then all seven of the people they were with at the restaurant that night have to be lying and covering for them?

That's not very credible.

[Z]

Zee I honestly think if she was a worst case scenario type of person then there is no way at all she would have left her children in that apartment by themselves, she would know of the dangers of leaving them alone like that.

Running to the restaurant and shouting they have taken her is a really odd thing to do imo even if she was in shock.

I dunno, I can completely understand (though I don't support) why they felt safe leaving their kids in an apartment by themselves if everyone else was doing it and they felt safe with their system of going back to check on them every half an hour. Then of course when the worst case scenario happened, she immediately felt guilty for leaving them in the first place. They were swept up in the innocence of being in a crowd; if everyone else is doing it, it seems innocent and totally fine because nobody else had had a problem with it.

When I was beaten up on my birthday I first said to my friend "do you think I should call an ambulance?" and then tried to joke with the paramedic that it wouldn't have happened if I'd had a smaller forehead. People say and do bizarre things that don't make sense when they're in shock.

[Cherie]

I don't know if I have misunderstood the facts here, but isn't it the case that for the parents to be involved in their daughter's disappearance then all seven of the people they were with at the restaurant that night have to be lying and covering for them?

That's not very credible.

Yes, and I believe if they were lying someone would have slipped up by now.

[Nedusa]

It's all very strange that on that one particular night an international Paedophile gang just happened to be targeting praia del Luz that particular night and they snatched one toddler ?

No Portuguese police investigations showed up any criminal or unusual Paedophile activity in that area of the Algarve around that time ?? So was the abductor a chancer, a Paedophile on holiday ? It does sound unlikely and the window of opportunity to snatch her was desparately short, it would have taken nerves of steel or perhaps one than one person but again we are back into International Paedophile gang territory.

No ... The unpalatable and shocking truth of this whole sad story is that the parents know what really happened that night and are actively involved in perpetuating this abduction story for evermore...

I for one hope new real evidence comes to light and this case is blown wide open inasmuch as the McCanns themselves are finally forced to admit the truth about what happened to their little girl on that fateful night....!!!!!

[joeysteele]

This case is to me a massive mystery and I really have all sorts of thoughts as to it running round my head everytime I hear more of it.

I haven't any children yet, I have though been a child and I know my Parents and all those in my family who have children would not and no way even at home, let alone in a foreign country, would any of those parents leave a 3/4 year old with younger twins on their own for any length of time let alone for possibly hours.

I just don't get this case at all and really think it best I keep my own counsel as to what I think in the main but somehow,although I applaud any investigations into it being made further,I am not expecting any conclusive positive results in the end from this new investigation.

[Marsh.]

Zee I honestly think if she was a worst case scenario type of person then there is no way at all she would have left her children in that apartment by themselves, she would know of the dangers of leaving them alone like that.

Running to the restaurant and shouting they have taken her is a really odd thing to do imo even if she was in shock.

Yeah, "They've taken her" is very odd. "She's gone" or "I can't find Maddie" or something. The phrasing is weird.

I think my first thought would be that she'd been kidnapped, if the window was open, though...

True. If the window was closed with a shutter down, I wouldn't presume my 3 year old had forced her way out of it.

But the later sighting of someone carrying a child would put Gerry having dinner with his friends wouldn't it :conf:

What do you mean? :conf:

I think the guy seen walking towards the beach with a kid was spotted after 10pm IIRC? So between the time Kate found Maddie gone and the police arriving.

But of course at this point, as James points out, their 5 other friends would have been with them at the apartments checking their own kids, helping look around for Maddie. If Gerry disappeared on foot with her they'd have noticed and therefore would have to be lying to cover for him, which takes the theory even further into absurdity.

[Nedusa]

If they were in fact covering up her accidental death then I find it hard to believe given the shock and grief stricken state they both would have been in , that they could plan and put into operation the perfect abduction scenario , that they could move and safely dispose of their little girls body and still give interviews to the police that were credible and plausible.

You would think they would have missed some vital piece of evidence or left some clues as to what actually happened .

Makes me wonder if perhaps a third party was involved ??

I don't know... Like most people this case is so confusing and unusual from so many angles...

[Marsh.]

It's all very strange that on that one particular night an international Paedophile gang just happened to be targeting praia del Luz that particular night and they snatched one toddler ?

No Portuguese police investigations showed up any criminal or unusual Paedophile activity in that area of the Algarve around that time ?? So was the abductor a chancer, a Paedophile on holiday ? It does sound unlikely and the window of opportunity to snatch her was desparately short, it would have taken nerves of steel or perhaps one than one person but again we are back into International Paedophile gang territory.

No ... The unpalatable and shocking truth of this whole sad story is that the parents know what really happened that night and are actively involved in perpetuating this abduction story for evermore...

I for one hope new real evidence comes to light and this case is blown wide open inasmuch as the McCanns themselves are finally forced to admit the truth about what happened to their little girl on that fateful night....!!!!!

Why would there have to be other activity? They're hardly going to remain in one area kidnapping children with search parties/police investigations that occur after just one child goes missing.

They don't have to be a chancer. They repeated their evening routine 4 nights in a row. Someone watching and following the pattern and then seizing the opportunity or any other possibilities are not implausible.

A pedophile on holiday? There are people who live/work/operate abroad, they don't have to be "on holiday".

If they had done something, then why wouldn't they lie low after the case was closed and they were officially dropped as suspects? Making worldwide appeals would not be in their interests.

[Marsh.]

If they were in fact covering up her accidental death then I find it hard to believe given the shock and grief stricken state they both would have been in , that they could plan and put into operation the perfect abduction scenario , that they could move and safely dispose of their little girls body and still give interviews to the police that were credible and plausible.

You would think they would have missed some vital piece of evidence or left some clues as to what actually happened .

Makes me wonder if perhaps a third party was involved ??

I don't know... Like most people this case is so confusing and unusual from so many angles...

But it being nigh on impossible for them to have covered up an accident means a third party was involved? From where?

Third party or not there would be more evidence.

[Z]

Why would there have to be other activity? They're hardly going to remain in one area kidnapping children with search parties/police investigations that occur after just one child goes missing.

They don't have to be a chancer. They repeated their evening routine 4 nights in a row. Someone watching and following the pattern and then seizing the opportunity or any other possibilities are not implausible.

A pedophile on holiday? There are people who live/work/operate abroad, they don't have to be "on holiday".

If they had done something, then why wouldn't they lie low after the case was closed and they were officially dropped as suspects? Making worldwide appeals would not be in their interests.

Take a look at the illicit drugs trade in Ibiza for example, with the case of those two girls being jailed in Peru - the gangs that operate the drug cartels are British men on the Spanish island! People are equating these hypothetical kiddy snatchers with respectable people with predictable patterns. The world of human trafficking is far more normal than people would ever want to imagine.

This clip is from a documentary about a man trying to get his wife back after she was trafficked by a friend of the couple. The man at the start of the clip was the one who trafficked her. He told her he could get a job for her. Instead he trafficked her, she had no idea what was coming next, she trusted this man. Sex traffickers aren't obvious.

ZvuyV--mtMA

[Lee.]

I honestly do not believe for a minute that the McCanns had anything to do with madeleines disappearance.

[Vicky.]

The Metropolitan Police team refuses to be critical of the previous inquiry in an effort to foster good relations with Portuguese police.

Six local officers based in Faro have been appointed to liaise with British police. But DCI Redwood hopes that ultimately the Portuguese investigation will be reopened.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/madeleine-mccann-key-sighting-ruled-210000792.html#tikTGfJ

That could be interesting :whistle:

Especially with the libel case going on. Can't see the McCanns being too impressed with this at all...

[Z]

The main problem with this case is that there are an infinite number of variables and possibilities to explain what happened that night, and a lot of them are down to the McCanns and their negligence, which clouds everyone's view of what happened whether you believe they are guilty of covering up her death or had nothing to do with her disappearance. Constantly raking it up in the news is the only way the McCanns can keep the case alive, but it's not impacting on public perception of them in a unifying way because all the factors are still totally unpredictable.

[Braden]

It's so difficult to watch the McCann's sit and talk about Madeleine, especially not knowing the truth.

I genuinely want to believe that they didn't have anything to do with it, but I can't help but think otherwise. Watching the reenactment last night and knowing that Madeleine told her mother that she was crying along with her brother was upsetting to watch. And if I find it distressing I know that her parents would have done something about it, which would result to her not being able to cry on that specific night. Giving her sleeping pills would have sorted that problem.

If I'm wrong then I hope that the outcome is revealed sooner rather than later. I don't think anybody deserves six years of heartache.

[MTVN]

They said there had been a couple of recent burglaries at the resort hadn't they, seems possible to me that this was another one and maybe they were disturbed by Madeleine, panicked and in trying to shut her up accidentally killed her and their first thought was to get rid of the body

Agree with Jesus btw, maybe I'm naive or too trusting or whatever but I really don't think they are the sort of people who'd have had anything to do with it and then meticulously cover it up like this, and most of the 'evidence' for that seems to be mainly scraps of strange or unexplained instances that are loosely tied together into something that resembles a somewhat plausible story (like most conspiracy theories really)

[Jemal]

Thing is why im increasedly pissed off at those **** parents is that...
THE NIGHT BEFORE! They went out the same and left their three kids at the apartment. Ok..Madeline and the twins wake up and start crying while their parents are out.
The next morning Madeline says "where were you when we was crying?"
I MEAN SURELY IF YOUR DAUGHTER SAYS THAT YU WOULDNT EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING OUT FOR THE 6th DAY IN A ROW!?

tbh im still a young man, but no way would i even be SELFISH and go out FOR THE 6TH DAY IN A ROW!?
IF YOU WANT TAPAS FOOD? GET A TAKEAWAY AND EAT IT TOGETHER WHILE WATCHING A MOVIE?
AND THEN BLOODY DRINK THE TAKEAWAY WINE ASWELL AND THEN GOTO THE BEDROOM AND THE BOTH OF YOU CAN GET CRACKING AND PASS THE NIGHT AWAY...

But no.. They had to be selfish pricks, thats why I have no sympathy for them at all.

Ah rant over.

[Z]

They said there had been a couple of recent burglaries at the resort hadn't they, seems possible to me that this was another one and maybe they were disturbed by Madeleine, panicked and in trying to shut her up accidentally killed her and their first thought was to get rid of the body

Agree with Jesus btw, maybe I'm naive or too trusting or whatever but I really don't think they are the sort of people who'd have had anything to do with it and then meticulously cover it up like this, and most of the 'evidence' for that seems to be mainly scraps of strange or unexplained instances that are loosely tied together into something that resembles a somewhat plausible story (like most conspiracy theories really)

The bungled burglary is a possibility... couple of guys casing the joint, checking out the affluent families and figuring out who lives where, monitoring their routine and then they go to the McCann apartment, prise open the window after seeing the empty bed (the one next to the window; the twins and Madeleine were further away from the window and they'd only have had a limited view, if any, of the inside) - they force their way in, Madeleine wakes up, they accidentally kill her... OR they go in through the door, walk into the room, are disturbed by Madeleine who is nearest the door, accidentally kill her and go out through the window in a panic... They carry the body off down to the beach and get rid of it, and don't steal anything because they've just accidentally killed a little girl.

[Marsh.]

I'm rather bemused by Jemal's insistence on bringing sex into the discussion. :suspect:

[Jemal]

I'm rather bemused by Jemal's insistence on bringing sex into the discussion. :suspect:

:joker:

[Nedusa]

They said there had been a couple of recent burglaries at the resort hadn't they, seems possible to me that this was another one and maybe they were disturbed by Madeleine, panicked and in trying to shut her up accidentally killed her and their first thought was to get rid of the body

Agree with Jesus btw, maybe I'm naive or too trusting or whatever but I really don't think they are the sort of people who'd have had anything to do with it and then meticulously cover it up like this, and most of the 'evidence' for that seems to be mainly scraps of strange or unexplained instances that are loosely tied together into something that resembles a somewhat plausible story (like most conspiracy theories really)

No ... Surely if they had been breaking in and disturbed and killed the girl their first instinct would have been to run away as quickly as possible without leaving behind any evidence.

But to snatch the dead girl and carry her out in public would have been the last thing they would do... No I think we can discount this theory.

Also if they had killed her and run off then the parents would have found her and this whole story would have been about catching the intruders who murdered a young girl on holiday...!!!

No tbh we are no further forward....!!!!

[Marsh.]

The bungled burglary is a possibility... couple of guys casing the joint, checking out the affluent families and figuring out who lives where, monitoring their routine and then they go to the McCann apartment, prise open the window after seeing the empty bed (the one next to the window; the twins and Madeleine were further away from the window and they'd only have had a limited view, if any, of the inside) - they force their way in, Madeleine wakes up, they accidentally kill her... OR they go in through the door, walk into the room, are disturbed by Madeleine who is nearest the door, accidentally kill her and go out through the window in a panic... They carry the body off down to the beach and get rid of it, and don't steal anything because they've just accidentally killed a little girl.

There'd be more evidence of a struggle/death surely?
I'm with whoever said why on earth if a burglar was caught by a small child would they take the child with them?

They'd surely think "****" and get the fook out of there as fast as possible.

[Kazanne]

Is it not possible that Madeline woke up and wandered out of the apartment looking for her parents? Could she have met with some accident maybe fell into a shaft or something similar,it's just a notion, and why would someone just take the one child and the older one at that, who would have woken up and caused a fuss at the hands of a stranger,

[Z]

There'd be more evidence of a struggle/death surely?
I'm with whoever said why on earth if a burglar was caught by a small child would they take the child with them?

They'd surely think "****" and get the fook out of there as fast as possible.

They sneak in, go into the bedroom the kids are in, Madeleine wakes up, they cover her mouth with hands/a pillow to keep her quiet, she suffocates and dies without a struggle, they panic and take the body with them and don't steal anything because they've just killed a little girl - they maybe assumed that the parents were in the next room, who knows - obviously just conjecture but it's pretty feasible IMO. They take the body because they don't want their DNA left behind - maybe Madeleine got out of her bed so they didn't actually touch anything - again, if you're in shock, you're not acting rationally. They still think "****" and get out of there as fast as possible, but take the body with them, and as calmly as possible walk away with her so that they appear normal to passers by. She'd have been asphyxiated so she wouldn't have been covered in blood or anything.

[Z]

Is it not possible that Madeline woke up and wandered out of the apartment looking for her parents? Could she have met with some accident maybe fell into a shaft or something similar,it's just a notion, and why would someone just take the one child and the older one at that, who would have woken up and caused a fuss at the hands of a stranger,

Well, from a practical point of view (I feel horrible for wording it like that but bear with me) - if you're in the market to kidnap children for the sex trade or illegal adoption trade, it's much easier to take a toddler who is toilet trained and old enough to walk and eat food by herself than to take twin babies who would require far more care while in transit.

[Vicky.]

For anyone who is interested in the Smith sighting, more info on it here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

[Drew.]

Is it not possible that Madeline woke up and wandered out of the apartment looking for her parents? Could she have met with some accident maybe fell into a shaft or something similar,it's just a notion, and why would someone just take the one child and the older one at that, who would have woken up and caused a fuss at the hands of a stranger,

i dont think she woke up at all just from the fact she could hardly keep her eyes open before they put her to bed

[Jemal]

Is it not possible that Madeline woke up and wandered out of the apartment looking for her parents? Could she have met with some accident maybe fell into a shaft or something similar,it's just a notion, and why would someone just take the one child and the older one at that, who would have woken up and caused a fuss at the hands of a stranger,

Nope my opinion is if she did walk out and look for her parents she would have taken her precious teddy, but that was left in the same position from when those parents left

[Vicky.]

There'd be more evidence of a struggle/death surely?
I'm with whoever said why on earth if a burglar was caught by a small child would they take the child with them?

They'd surely think "****" and get the fook out of there as fast as possible.

Yup.

Though there was kind of evidence of death. The cadaver dogs went mad in the apartment. The video is on youtube.

Thats not total evidence though, the death could have occurred at another time. I do wonder if there was ever an investigation into recent known deaths in apartment 5A though (E. seems there was and no known deaths)

[Z]

Yup.

Though there was kind of evidence of death. The cadaver dogs went mad in the apartment. The video is on youtube.

Thats not total evidence though, the death could have occurred at another time. I do wonder if there was ever an investigation into recent known deaths in apartment 5A though

Yeah and those dogs are highly trained so I'd trust their instincts... as awful as it is, I hope she's dead and not living in eternal hell being used as a sex slave by twisted paedophiles, because that's the only life she has ever known if she is still alive... the poor thing :(

[Vicky.]

Took them nearly an hour to contact police after discovering she was gone.

Their friend who checked on them didnt actually see the kids..just checked for noise (same as Kate was going to do before door slammed)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/15/article-2460669-18BFAEA400000578-249_634x715.jpg

Sees twins in their cot but doesnt look at Madelines bed. According to police timeline.

[Kazanne]

For anyone who is interested in the Smith sighting, more info on it here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

thanks,that was very interesting reading.

[Vicky.]

Yeah and those dogs are highly trained so I'd trust their instincts... as awful as it is, I hope she's dead and not living in eternal hell being used as a sex slave by twisted paedophiles, because that's the only life she has ever known if she is still alive... the poor thing :(

Yes this is my thinking too. However Gerry McCanns reaction was to try and discredit the dogs findings rather than accept that they are generally accurate (the dogs used had never been wrong in 200 uses previous)

One would think that he would have wanted their findings looked into MORE really..as it could have helped find out what happened.

Edit again. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html Info on the dogs search..inc video

[Jemal]

I missed the reason why the door slammed shut. Was it because of the window being opened from the person escaping?

[Z]

Yes this is my thinking too. However Gerry McCanns reaction was to try and discredit the dogs findings rather than accept that they are generally accurate (the dogs used had never been wrong in 200 uses previous)

One would think that he would have wanted their findings looked into MORE really..as it could have helped find out what happened.

I guess they don't want to think that she's dead because the person responsible is still at large and coming to the conclusion that she died in the room without a culprit makes them look more guilty? I dunno, it is strange.

@Jemal - the window was wide open and it caused the door to slam shut due to the draught, but it could have been open for a while.

[Marsh.]

They sneak in, go into the bedroom the kids are in, Madeleine wakes up, they cover her mouth with hands/a pillow to keep her quiet, she suffocates and dies without a struggle, they panic and take the body with them and don't steal anything because they've just killed a little girl - they maybe assumed that the parents were in the next room, who knows - obviously just conjecture but it's pretty feasible IMO. They take the body because they don't want their DNA left behind - maybe Madeleine got out of her bed so they didn't actually touch anything - again, if you're in shock, you're not acting rationally. They still think "****" and get out of there as fast as possible, but take the body with them, and as calmly as possible walk away with her so that they appear normal to passers by. She'd have been asphyxiated so she wouldn't have been covered in blood or anything.

But if they hadn't touched anything else, or had barely got into the apartment then the obvious thing to do would be to go, not to pressure the child into silence.

Especially when two babies are sleeping near her and could make a fuss at any time.

I just don't think your average chancing burglar would risk the bother. Just looting for any valuables they'd move onto somewhere else that may be empty.

Just a hard situation to find plausible.

[Jemal]

Im i the only who thinks the father has a little bit of a smirk on his face when talking about Madeline?

[Z]

But if they hadn't touched anything else, or had barely got into the apartment then the obvious thing to do would be to go, not to pressure the child into silence.

Especially when two babies are sleeping near her and could make a fuss at any time.

I just don't think your average chancing burglar would risk the bother. Just looting for any valuables they'd move onto somewhere else that may be empty.

Just a hard situation to find plausible.

They possibly slipped in thinking it was empty, were disturbed by Madeleine and panicked, thinking the whole family was there and high tailed it out of there with her body in tow once they realised they'd just murdered her, their thinking wouldn't have been clear... if that's even what happened. I'd give it credibility because of the cadaver dogs detecting the scent of death in the room.

[Vicky.]

I'm having a hard time even beginning to think about the botched burglary, nothing taken. no disturbance, kill child accidentally, carry child round block theory tbh

[Marsh.]

They possibly slipped in thinking it was empty, were disturbed by Madeleine and panicked, thinking the whole family was there and high tailed it out of there with her body in tow once they realised they'd just murdered her, their thinking wouldn't have been clear... if that's even what happened. I'd give it credibility because of the cadaver dogs detecting the scent of death in the room.

What I meant was they'd have high tailed it out of there once they realised it wasn't empty, before having a chance to kill her accidentally.

Crawling through the window, then bugger and make a run for it.

Unless they'd already gone through the rest of the apartment, knew it was empty and tried to keep the child quiet in that instance. But there's no evidence of anything being disturbed, messed up, moved or taken from anywhere else in the apartment.

It's just more trouble for an otherwise random robber looking for a laptop/phones/cameras.

[Z]

I'm having a hard time even beginning to think about the botched burglary, nothing taken. no disturbance, kill child accidentally, carry child round block theory tbh

Well my line of thinking is that the first room they go into is the bedroom that the kids are in and a sleepy Madeleine immediately wakes up, perhaps thinking it's her parents, they get a scare and cover her mouth and panic about what to do and accidentally smother her to death. They panic even further and bolt out of the window, thinking that the McCanns are next door and it's better to hide the evidence (her body) than to leave it there, but once they get outside they realise that running around carrying a little dead girl looks more suspicious than walking calmly as if she's asleep, so they go their separate ways (or it's one man acting alone) and one of them carries the body down to the beach or another location to get rid of the body. Maybe they take her out to sea and dump her there or maybe somewhere on land.

[Kazanne]

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html

this is interesting too.

[MTVN]

Agree Zee, I think you have nailed it

[Vicky.]

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html

this is interesting too.

Ah yes, the Paynes, who were practically written out of the reconstruction yesterday.

[Vicky.]

Well my line of thinking is that the first room they go into is the bedroom that the kids are in and a sleepy Madeleine immediately wakes up, perhaps thinking it's her parents, they get a scare and cover her mouth and panic about what to do and accidentally smother her to death. They panic even further and bolt out of the window, thinking that the McCanns are next door and it's better to hide the evidence (her body) than to leave it there, but once they get outside they realise that running around carrying a little dead girl looks more suspicious than walking calmly as if she's asleep, so they go their separate ways (or it's one man acting alone) and one of them carries the body down to the beach or another location to get rid of the body. Maybe they take her out to sea and dump her there or maybe somewhere on land.

Right lets go with this..is it not usual when planning a burglary to have a kind of..getaway car? Or some way of getting away without people noticing you walking down the road with a load of laptops and jewelry and such?

I just cannot see burglars deciding to take the body of a girl they somehow killed accidentally. At all.

[chuff me dizzy]

As some of you will know I have been on Maddie groups for over 6 years now ,I take an active rol on following up all thing Maddie related ,we are not the evil troll McCanns try to claim we are ,they hate us as we tweet FACTS of the case, facts they want buried ,including this from 2007 ,despite what Deadwood said the Smith sighting is NOT a new breakthrough ,the Smiths gave their statements in 2007 ,but what Deadwood failed to add was the fact the Smiths said the person carrying Maddie was gerry McCann http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

[chuff me dizzy]

Ah yes, the Paynes, who were practically written out of the reconstruction yesterday.

The 2 Police dogs ,favoured by the FBI who found Maddies cadaver in 5A,Hire car, Cuddlecat, car keys and most haunting Kate McCanns clothing didnt get a mention either ?

[chuff me dizzy]

See Eddie ,Keela in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EHJjpXii9o

[Marsh.]

Thanks for the links everyone.

Ah yes, the Paynes, who were practically written out of the reconstruction yesterday.

Very disturbing. As someone, I think Josy, says it's likely we'll never know the true events of that night. So many threads, dead ends, variables. Highly confusing case.

As some of you will know I have been on Maddie groups for over 6 years now ,I take an active rol on following up all thing Maddie related ,we are not the evil troll McCanns try to claim we are ,they hate us as we tweet FACTS of the case, facts they want buried ,including this from 2007 ,despite what Deadwood said the Smith sighting is NOT a new breakthrough ,the Smiths gave their statements in 2007 ,but what Deadwood failed to add was the fact the Smiths said the person carrying Maddie was gerry McCann http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

And the reason they would want the case to be so high profile and keep the search going is because?

For kicks?

[Z]

Right lets go with this..is it not usual when planning a burglary to have a kind of..getaway car? Or some way of getting away without people noticing you walking down the road with a load of laptops and jewelry and such?

I just cannot see burglars deciding to take the body of a girl they somehow killed accidentally. At all.

Not if you're living in Praia da Luz that relies heavily on tourism and no other form of income, I would imagine that it's quite a poor place (I have no evidence to back this up, could be completely wrong), having a car isn't all that likely if you're poor, plus it's a small place, you might have no need for one, especially if you're just an opportunistic burglar.

[chuff me dizzy]

Thanks for the links everyone.



Very disturbing. As someone, I think Josy, says it's likely we'll never know the true events of that night. So many threads, dead ends, variables. Highly confusing case.



And the reason they would want the case to be so high profile and keep the search going is because?

For kicks?

Oh dear another "hook line sinker victim ":sleep: in 2007 when McCanns screamed "abduction"they started a snowball rolling which Im sure they thought would have stopped by now, how wrong they were ,They failed to realise this is the age of the internet, things cannot get brushed under the carpet like it did in the good old days the only thing that can stop it now is the thing they dread the most ,the TRUTH please dont comments on things you know nothing about

[Z]

Oh dear another "hook line sinker victim ":sleep: in 2007 when McCanns screamed "abduction"they started a snowball rolling which Im sure they thought would have stopped by now, how wrong they were ,They failed to realise this is the age of the internet, things cannot get brushed under the carpet like it did in the good old days the only thing that can stop it now is the thing they dread the most ,the TRUTH please dont comments on things you know nothing about

How condescending. None of us know what happened that night, we are all speculating just as much as each other and we've all given perfectly logical, differing opinions on the matter.

[chuff me dizzy]

Not if you're living in Praia da Luz that relies heavily on tourism and no other form of income, I would imagine that it's quite a poor place (I have no evidence to back this up, could be completely wrong), having a car isn't all that likely if you're poor, plus it's a small place, you might have no need for one, especially if you're just an opportunistic burglar.

Ive been to Portugal and the place it happened, its is not a third world country with a bumbling police force as some would have you believe

[Z]

Ive been to Portugal and the place it happened, its is not a third world country with a bumbling police force as some would have you believe

I'm not so much influenced by that, but more by my experiences of holiday resort towns whereby the area around the nice hotels is a paradise but the rest of the town is a slum and everyone relies totally on the tourism industry for their livelihood - is it like that or is it generally just a nice town? I don't think the police force are useless though, I think they gave the case more attention than it deserved and did their job properly.

[Jesus.]

As some of you will know I have been on Maddie groups for over 6 years now ,I take an active rol on following up all thing Maddie related ,we are not the evil troll McCanns try to claim we are ,they hate us as we tweet FACTS of the case, facts they want buried ,including this from 2007 ,despite what Deadwood said the Smith sighting is NOT a new breakthrough ,the Smiths gave their statements in 2007 ,but what Deadwood failed to add was the fact the Smiths said the person carrying Maddie was gerry McCann http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

What if you're wrong, chuff?

[Marsh.]

Oh dear another "hook line sinker victim ":sleep: in 2007 when McCanns screamed "abduction"they started a snowball rolling which Im sure they thought would have stopped by now, how wrong they were ,They failed to realise this is the age of the internet, things cannot get brushed under the carpet like it did in the good old days the only thing that can stop it now is the thing they dread the most ,the TRUTH please dont comments on things you know nothing about

You have a serious attitude problem.

I merely asked a question, which seems to be a huge gap in your theories.

Either engage in a civil discussion or take your condescending rambles elsewhere. You are not a voice of authority, kindly step down from the pedestal.

[Jemal]

Everytime i watch Gerry Mccan talking about her, i see a slight smirk on his face...
Plus he looks like those e-fits. I mean this guy has to be the one...
BUT thing is... Friends of the parents have said Gerry never left the tapas resturant apart from once.,, and as we know Madeline was sleeping at that time... So i dunno... Im fifty fifty.

[chuff me dizzy]

Another thing I don't quite understand is If she was taken surely she would have woken up and caused a fuss,the child they show in the media seems to be still asleep!! I know my little one would never stay asleep if a stranger picked him up and went outside with him.

Even when the police got there ,the twins were still asleep,and the apartment had been contaminated by Mcs filling it with whole tapas group they were carried out in the night air to another apartment and still they didnt wake...If you were a Mother and you thought your child had been "Taken" would you



1) Go out and look ,shout her name from balcony ?

2)Leave you babies while you run to tell someone (yes she left the twins despite thinking Maddie had been taken )

3)Ring the polce

4)Sit down calmly and write out a timeline with all your friends on the back of your missing childs colouring book, keep scribbling things out and re-doing them ,then ring Sky news ?




The Mcs did number 4

[chuff me dizzy]

You have a serious attitude problem.

I merely asked a question, which seems to be a huge gap in your theories.

Either engage in a civil discussion or take your condescending rambles elsewhere. You are not a voice of authority, kindly step down from the pedestal.

As Ive said ^^^ I have spent a long time for over 6 years Im no dummy ,you cannot educate me on this case

[thesheriff443]

As Ive said ^^^ I have spent a long time for over 6 years Im no dummy ,you cannot educate me on this case

you have spent six years wasting your time, you could of spent that time doing something meaningful and of some use.

[chuff me dizzy]

I'm not so much influenced by that, but more by my experiences of holiday resort towns whereby the area around the nice hotels is a paradise but the rest of the town is a slum and everyone relies totally on the tourism industry for their livelihood - is it like that or is it generally just a nice town? I don't think the police force are useless though, I think they gave the case more attention than it deserved and did their job properly.

This Crimewatch thing has been sat on for 6 months ,it has only been broadcast as try to cover up a libel case ongoing in Lisbon court where they are suing Goncalo Amaral the portuguese police Chief for libel in his book, a book which is based solely on the official police files both Uk and Pj ,The Mcs have tried to have the book banned and have lost 2 cases against him ,they are losing this one too, and they know if they do lose it ,it will prove whats been known for 6 years by people who care to look, that the police files hold the truth

[Marsh.]

As Ive said ^^^ I have spent a long time for over 6 years Im no dummy ,you cannot educate me on this case

Where did I attempt to educate you on anything?

You stepped into a discussion thread already in flow and patronised me for asking you a question related to your theory.

I really do not know why you have such a foul attitude, wind your neck in.

[chuff me dizzy]

How condescending. None of us know what happened that night, we are all speculating just as much as each other and we've all given perfectly logical, differing opinions on the matter.

Not all all, I answer people in the same tone they speak to me .the truth is out there for anyone to see, but sadly some people close their front doors and think it doesnt affect me so why should i fight for justice for a 3 yr old child

[Jesus.]

Trolling the parents of an abducted infant is pretty ******ing low.

[chuff me dizzy]

Where did I attempt to educate you on anything?

You stepped into a discussion thread already in flow and patronised me for asking you a question related to your theory.

I really do not know why you have such a foul attitude, wind your neck in.

So this thread is for everyone apart from me ? I think its your neck that needs winding sunbeam