[michael21]

52% voted leave last time now more will vote say

This will happen because I said so

[Denver]

Just makes a mockery of the country

[Twosugars]

my considered opinion is **** brexit

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

my considered opinion is **** brexit

i guess most who are opposed to May her brexit deal, rather want no brexit

[Livia]

Everyone's against May's proposed deal. Trouble is, most people have no idea what's in it.

I wouldn't be surprised if this WHOLE cake-and-arse show was put together by remainers hoping to get another vote.

If there IS a second referendum I don't believe we would any longer be able to call ourselves a democracy. Furthermore... when are we going to here someone mention the appallingly pedantic, rude and patronising way that the EU had dealt with the UK over Brexit.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

If there IS a second referendum I don't believe we would any longer be able to call ourselves a democracy.

Because if there's one thing that's inherently undemocratic, it's putting things to a public vote

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because if there's one thing that's inherently undemocratic, it's putting things to a public vote

If there's anything that's inherently undemocratic it's ignoring the first vote because the remain camp is very loud.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

If there's anything that's inherently undemocratic it's ignoring the first vote because the remain camp is very loud.

I don't think that's an accurate representation of what's actually happening, though. The issue wasn't considered for long enough (or really, at all) before the first vote was called... there should have been at least the outline of a "roadmap to Brexit" before the first referrendum, and the whole thing has been an absolute shambles. If there are clear indications that public opinion has shifted in a meaningful way, then of course polling that is democratic? If there hasn't been a shift in public opinion then a second poll will only reflect that. At the end of the day, for the final decision to be democratic, all that really matters is that the will of the people is followed to the best of the government's knowledge. In fact... continuing with Brexit because of the previous poll - knowing that there's a possibility that that poll no longer represents the population - is quite undemocratic.

Now if it became a case of "poll after poll until people get the outcome they want", or holding a second poll when nothing has changed, then I definitely agree that it would be undemocratic... but that's really not the case here. A lot more information is available, a lot has changed in the 18 months since the referendum, there IS reason to believe that the desires of the public may have changed, and the only responsible choice for an elected government (in my opinion) is to at least be sure before making vast changes.

If it's still Brexit then fine. In fact, even if it's "too close to call" (say 51% remain) I would say it's probably right to still forge ahead with the plans, but if a second poll came up 60-40 for remain? Then Brexit is obviously not what the British people want.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think that's an accurate representation of what's actually happening, though. The issue wasn't considered for long enough (or really, at all) before the first vote was called... there should have been at least the outline of a "roadmap to Brexit" before the first referrendum, and the whole thing has been an absolute shambles. If there are clear indications that public opinion has shifted in a meaningful way, then of course polling that is democratic? If there hasn't been a shift in public opinion then a second poll will only reflect that. At the end of the day, for the final decision to be democratic, all that really matters is that the will of the people is followed to the best of the government's knowledge. In fact... continuing with Brexit because of the previous poll - knowing that there's a possibility that that poll no longer represents the population - is quite undemocratic.

Now if it became a case of "poll after poll until people get the outcome they want", or holding a second poll when nothing has changed, then I definitely agree that it would be undemocratic... but that's really not the case here. A lot more information is available, a lot has changed in the 18 months since the referendum, there IS reason to believe that the desires of the public may have changed, and the only responsible choice for an elected government (in my opinion) is to at least be sure before making vast changes.

If it's still Brexit then fine. In fact, even if it's "too close to call" (say 51% remain) I would say it's probably right to still forge ahead with the plans, but if a second poll came up 60-40 for remain? Then Brexit is obviously not what the British people want.

I didn't think you would.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I didn't think you would.

[caprimint]

I agree with you, I've said this for ages

I don't follow the news btw, what actually is Theresa's Brexit deal???

[user104658]

Originally Posted by caprimint

what actually is Theresa's Brexit deal???

Wishy-washy is the best way to describe it. I don't think ANYONE likes it, and it basically amounts to more or less still being in the EU for the foreseeable future, except without any of the real benefits of membership, and also a big Brexit bill added to our debts.

We really do need to either scrap the whole thing and continue with the EU and a red face, or go properly "Brexit Meanz Brexit", go for it and hope for the best. It's a half-in-half-out arrangement that's just... limp.

Again though, this is because they called a referendum for a "full Brexit" without even ****ing bothering to check whether or not it was feasible to untangle the web. The referendum should never have been proposed as a binding thing. It should have been done to survey the public's feelings on the matter and then see what could be done to step away from it over the LONG term, as in decades. This idea that we could say "we want out!" and then hack at the bonds with a bread knife and declare ourselves out a couple of years later was just never going to work.

[caprimint]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Wishy-washy is the best way to describe it. I don't think ANYONE likes it, and it basically amounts to more or less still being in the EU for the foreseeable future, except without any of the real benefits of membership, and also a big Brexit bill added to our debts.

We really do need to either scrap the whole thing and continue with the EU and a red face, or go properly "Brexit Meanz Brexit", go for it and hope for the best. It's a half-in-half-out arrangement that's just... limp.

Again though, this is because they called a referendum for a "full Brexit" without even ****ing bothering to check whether or not it was feasible to untangle the web. The referendum should never have been proposed as a binding thing. It should have been done to survey the public's feelings on the matter and then see what could be done to step away from it over the LONG term, as in decades. This idea that we could say "we want out!" and then hack at the bonds with a bread knife and declare ourselves out a couple of years later was just never going to work.

Gotcha, thank you for the explanation

[Nicky91]

full brexit more sounds like a ''full english breakfast'' tbh lol

[Livia]

Originally Posted by caprimint

I agree with you, I've said this for ages

I don't follow the news btw, what actually is Theresa's Brexit deal???

FYI, Caprimint...

Source: conservatives.com

"...
Our agreement marks a decisive step forward. Learn how our Brexit deal delivers on the referendum.

We have agreed in principle the terms of the UK’s smooth and orderly exit from the EU while also agreeing the broad terms of our future relationship as set out in the outline Political Declaration.

This puts us close to a Brexit deal. A deal that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money while protecting jobs, security and the integrity of our United Kingdom.

It is a deal that brings our country together. A deal that realises the benefits of Brexit and lets us focus on the big domestic issues that face our country.

Although this represents a significant breakthrough, it is not the final deal. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

The Withdrawal Agreement:

● Protects the rights of more than three million EU citizens living in the UK and around one million UK nationals living in the EU.

● Gives us time-limited implementation period that provides a bridge to the future relationship, allowing businesses to continue trading as now until the end of 2020.

● Provides a fair financial settlement for UK taxpayers.

● Ensures no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, with a UK-wide backstop respecting the constitutional and economic integrity of the UK. This agreement legally commits both sides to use best endeavours to ensure the backstop is never used. If either side fails to do so, this could be referred to an independent arbitration panel.

● This includes a mechanism which either the UK or the EU can trigger to review the arrangements, which could ultimately lead to the backstop ceasing to apply.

The Political Declaration:

● Ends free movement of people and we will have a new skills-based immigration system.

● Provides for a free trade area and deep cooperation on goods, with zero tariffs and quotas.

● Gives the UK the ability to strike trade deals around the world.

● Calls for ambitious arrangements for services and investment, alongside new arrangements on financial services.

● Contains new and specific arrangements on digital, covering a wide-range of areas, reflecting the growth and prominence of global digital trade.

● Ensures the UK will be an independent coastal state, with commitments to ensure sustainable fishing levels and a new fisheries agreement with the EU.

● Ensures the UK will be outside the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy.

● Provides for open and fair competition, in line with the overall economic relationship with commitments by both the UK and the EU on state aid, employment and environmental standards, and relevant tax matters.

● Commits to comprehensive and close reciprocal law enforcement and judicial cooperation to keep people safe.

● A close and flexible partnership of foreign policy and defence.

The country faces a stark set of choices: this deal, no deal or no Brexit at all. I firmly believe that this agreement puts the country on a path towards a good deal that is in that national interest and can put the divisions of the referendum behind us.

We’ve made a decisive step forward. We have agreed in principle the terms of the UK’s smooth and orderly exit from the EU, as set out in the Withdrawal Agreement.

We have also agreed the broad terms of our future relationship as set out in the Outline Political Declaration.

The deal delivers on the referendum result.
The deal takes back control of our borders, ending free movement once and for all. It takes back control of our money, so we can spend it on our priorities like our long term plan for the NHS.

It takes back control of our laws, ending the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, coming out of the Common Agricultural Policy, and out of the Common Fisheries Policy. It safeguards British jobs, and protects the security and the integrity of our precious United Kingdom.

The deal means we leave the EU in a smooth and orderly way.
We’ll have an implementation period, until the end of 2020, to make sure we leave the EU in a smooth and orderly way. British citizens who live in the EU and EU citizens who live in Britain are protected.

Our fair financial settlement honours our obligations and ends the vast payments to the EU. And there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Guaranteed in a way which respects the constitutional and economic integrity of the UK.

• The deal gives us the benefits of Brexit.
• Free movement of people will end.
• We’ll be free to sign trade deals with other countries.
• We'll have a free trade area for goods with the EU.
• We won’t pay any more vast contributions to the EU budget.
• There won't be a hard border in Northern Ireland, or a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
• Flexibility on services and digital.
• We'll leave the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy.
• The European Court of Justice won’t have jurisdiction over the UK.
• Continued security cooperation.
• The direct effect of EU law in the UK will end.

..."

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Livia

If there's anything that's inherently undemocratic it's ignoring the first vote because the remain camp is very loud.

Or cause Vote Leave broke electoral law, which makes an actual real mockery of democracy

[Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Dia.

Or cause Vote Leave broke electoral law, which makes an actual real mockery of democracy

But that’s fine apparently cos 17m people!!!

[Tom4784]

People voted for this ****show and who would run it whilst ignoring the obvious problems (Brexit campaign was run on lies and misinformation and people bought May's 'Strong and Stable' **** despite witnessing how flip floppy her government was before the election) and now they've got to live with the consequences as they are getting what they voted for.

[The Slim Reaper]

There can't be a 2nd vote until all the brown folks and eastern europeans have been kicked out.

[reece(:]

Brexit is the worst thing that's happened in my lifetime and has taken so much well needed focus on NHS/education debates that need to be had. Get it over with /reverse it and let's get onto fixing other aspects of the country that are in dire straits.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by reece(:

Brexit is the worst thing that's happened in my lifetime and has taken so much well needed focus on NHS/education debates that need to be had. Get it over with /reverse it and let's get onto fixing other aspects of the country that are in dire straits.

There money available to fix these thing but if thing like NHS/education and more was sorted out there be no need for most mps

We must all vote in the second brexit vote

[Denver]

The NHS will never be fixed unless it goes under serious reform

[Beastie]

I knew from the beginning Brexit won't be happening.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Beastie

I knew from the beginning Brexit won't be happening.

Well you could of told the prime minister

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Adam.

The NHS will never be fixed unless it goes under serious reform

Good point lets all agree to reform it

Why cant it be like that in parlmemt