[dirtyvileHARRYuk]

i found it so hypercritical that martin is condeming the current troubles as of his past and the party he was representing. how dare he < what a cheek ? i just think they are out of the picture now a days as they can not compete with the moslims as not only do they plant bombs but they send themself up with it lol

the joe is hopeing i dont get knee capped on way to work now lol



martin mcguinness



we are nearly in april,

step forward the fool,

martin mcguinness you are discredited,

over my eyes you wont pull the wool.

how dare you criticize,

its so hypercritical,

today's troubles are minor,

i remember the i-r-a before you went all political.

you may say you are not connected,

just a representative carrying and reading there script,

for years i watched you justify the terror,

and that is now what's causing my conflict.

it don't wash with me,

peace and the i-r-a i don't trust,

but in no way can you compete with al-qaeda,

that's why your story has started to rust.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Joe444

i found it so hypercritical that martin is condeming the current troubles as of his past and the party he was representing. how dare he < what a cheek ? i just think they are out of the picture now a days as they can not compete with the moslims as not only do they plant bombs but they send themself up with it lol

the joe is hopeing i dont get knee capped on way to work now lol



martin mcguinness



we are nearly in april,

step forward the fool,

martin mcguinness you are discredited,

over my eyes you wont pull the wool.

how dare you criticize,

its so hypercritical,

today's troubles are minor,

i remember the i-r-a before you went all political.

you may say you are not connected,

just a representative carrying and reading there script,

for years i watched you justify the terror,

and that is now what's causing my conflict.

it don't wash with me,

peace and the i-r-a i don't trust,

but in no way can you compete with al-qaeda,

that's why your story has started to rust.

Well said. I can't stand the hypocrite - how he expects anyone to take him seriously with his history is beyond belief - convenient short memory I'd say! Revolting, smarmy disgusting man!!

Good poem Joe!

[setanta]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Well said. I can't stand the hypocrite - how he expects anyone to take him seriously with his history is beyond belief - convenient short memory I'd say! Revolting, smarmy disgusting man!!

Good poem Joe!

Nelson Mandela is now proclaimed the hero of his nation - a great pacifist and negotiator - but you should check up on his activities prior to his arrest and incarceration.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by setanta

Nelson Mandela is now proclaimed the hero of his nation - a great pacifist and negotiator - but you should check up on his activities prior to his arrest and incarceration.

probably the worst comparison of 2010






stop being an apologist for murder

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by setanta

Nelson Mandela is now proclaimed the hero of his nation - a great pacifist and negotiator - but you should check up on his activities prior to his arrest and incarceration.

Interesting idea. Would you be putting Martin on a pedestal up there with Nelson?

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Interesting idea. Would you be putting Martin on a pedestal up there with Nelson?

Because prior to his arrest Mandela was the leader of the ANC's armed wing , who went on a bombing campaign. They were also considering guerilla warfare if the sabotage didn't have the effect that they desired. He's indirectly responsible for the deaths of many individuals. Just think it's interesting to compare events in different areas sometimes. And it has absolutely nothing to with pedestals of any kind (oh, and it's fairly transparent what you're trying to insinuate there): just curious the way history is viewed or obscured at times.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by setanta

Because prior to his arrest Mandela was the leader of the ANC's armed wing , who went on a bombing campaign. They were also considering guerilla warfare if the sabotage didn't have the effect that they desired. He's indirectly responsible for the deaths of many individuals. Just think it's interesting to compare events in different areas sometimes.

but you're missing the one big difference..........................it wasn't the UK.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by setanta

Because prior to his arrest Mandela was the leader of the ANC's armed wing , who went on a bombing campaign. They were also considering guerilla warfare if the sabotage didn't have the effect that they desired. He's indirectly responsible for the deaths of many individuals. Just think it's interesting to compare events in different areas sometimes. And it has absolutely nothing to with pedestals of any kind: just curious the way history is viewed or obscured at times.

Whilst its true that Mandela was leader of the MK(the armed wing of the ANC) while in charge his policy was only to hit local government offices - out of hours to ensure there werent as far as possible civilian casualties, in fact his policy was to avoid any deaths or even injuries, it was mentioned at his trial that he cancelled some operations because it couldnt be ensured there would be no collateral injuries. ( see: Wolfie Kadesh )

Whilst in prison he often called for the ANC leadership to plan and execute operations which would result in minimal casualties. And condemned certain operations as being overly violent. Since the end of apartheid in South Africa and during the Truth and Reconciliation Commision. Mandela was never implicated in any actions which breached human rights, in fact he cristicised others for withholding information etc, including his own wife.

Thats a lot different than Martin's history, with the Hegarty case, Enniskillen and a host of other operations he was linked with. Interesting to note he refused to accept the authority of the court that sentenced him in the 70's in the Republic of Ireland.

Saying that Martin McGuinness has done a lot to bring peace to Northern Ireland negotiating on behalf of both the IRA and Sinn Fein since the 1980's in fact even before that. Without his efforts and risks I dare say there wouldnt be the situation there is there today.

A young Martin McGuinness:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...t=true&bbcws=2

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by setanta

Yep, so he was involved in the deaths of individuals. End of story really. There's parrallels to be seen in their stories, as I had suggested from the outset.

Some similarities, yes. McGuinnes is a good negotiator. But a hell of a lot of differences. Too many. I dont think McGuinnes will achieve worldwide reknown.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Some similarities, yes. McGuinnes is a good negotiator. But a hell of a lot of differences. Too many. I dont think McGuinnes will achieve worldwide reknown.

I don't see many to be honest with you: two individuals fighting in the name of their people by any means necessary. There's degrees of bloodletting, violence and death to you when fighting for an ideal? Not to me. Mandela has admitted to being involved with one bombing that killed many lives after you had said previously that he had no power over the organization after being imprisoned. That proves to me that he still had a huge influence on their strategies. He was their leader and founder for feck sake.

I wanted to raise the issue of Mandela just to illustrate how history is viewed differently by so many, even when these two men fought for exactly the same reasons, motivated by a need to defend their people and attack their oppressors when necessary. Whether you believe these wars were justified or not is irrelevent; their motivations and objectives were the same.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by setanta

I don't see many to be honest with you: two individuals fighting in the name of their people by any means necessary. There's degrees of bloodletting, violence and death to you when fighting for an ideal? Not to me. Mandela has admitted to being involved with one bombing that killed many lives after you had said previously that he had no power over the organization after being imprisoned. That proves to me that he still had a huge influence on their strategies. He was their leader and founder for feck sake.

Lets put things in perspective. Mandela sanctioned operations to take place against legitimate military targets, not the actual operation itself. The result of some operations by the South African Military against ANC targets outside of South Africa. On hearing of the outcome of the Church Street Bombing he did, as you put it "sign off" violence.

The ANC's submission said that the bombing was in response to a South African cross-border raid into Lesotho in December 1982 which killed 42 ANC supporters and civilians, and the assassination of Ruth First, an ANC activist and wife of Joe Slovo, in Maputo, Mozambique. It claimed that 11 of the casualties were SAAF personnel and hence a military target. The legal representative of some of the victims argued that as administrative staff including telephonists and typists they could not accept that they were a legitimate military target.

Ten MK operatives including Aboobaker Ismail applied for amnesty for this and other bombings. The applications were opposed on various grounds, including that it was a terrorist attack disproportionate to the political motive. The TRC (truth And Reconciliation Commission) found that the number of civilians versus military personnel killed was unclear. South African Police statistics indicated that 7 members of the SAAF were killed. The commission found that at least 84 of the injured were SAAF members or employees. Amnesty was granted by the TRC

Now lets look at McGuinness, he took part in operations in his early years with the IRA as a sniper,thats a bit different than agreeing to an operation. When promoted to command he sanctioned many operations where the targeting was indiscriminate at best.

In 1987 a bomb was targeted at a Remembrance Day parade. Eleven people were killed, sixty-three people were injured. Sinn Féin's publicity director Danny Morrison describing himself as "shattered" on hearing that the IRA was involved at all. However best was yet to come, one little incident failed to make much headlines, the other bomb in this little operation. This bomb four times larger was placed at a similar but smaller parade 20 miles (32 km) away at Tullyhommon. That parade was conducted by members of the Boys' Brigade, Girls' Brigade and "three or four members of the security forces in uniform there to lay a wreath". That bomb failed to explode.

McGuinness was the head of the IRA's Northern Command which not only sanctioned the Enniskillen bombing which left 11 civilians dead, it was in overall command of the operation, liaising with the three units involved.

In the aftermath of the attack the IRA insisted that its leadership had not sanctioned the bombing, however its Fermanagh Brigade was stood down. Then In 1997 Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams apologised for the bombing on behalf of the republican movement.

Do you see the difference?

One man sanctioned a strike back at what he believed were to be solely military targets, when he heard the results, he changed his belief in the application of violent methods.

One man not only shot people he was top sniper at one time, he liked to attend interrogations of his own people, which were very brutal. Black and decker drills, sandbags and death for the person being interrogated were a regular occurence of these interrogations.

This second man went on to sanction loads of operations involving civilian casualties, one which if one of the bombs of a dual strike operation had exploded, would have taken out a troop of girl's brigade and members of the Boys Brigade in order to possibly injure or kill up to 4 members of the UDR/RUC. The other bomb did explode and, to paraphase, "killed old-aged pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day? Where's the glory in that?"

Boys brigade, Girl's Brigade and old age pensioners, legitimate military targets?

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Lets put things in perspective. Mandela sanctioned operations to take place against legitimate military targets, not the actual operation itself. The result of some operations by the South African Military against ANC targets outside of South Africa. On hearing of the outcome of the Church Street Bombing he did, as you put it "sign off" violence.



Now lets look at McGuinness, he took part in operations in his early years with the IRA as a sniper,thats a bit different than agreeing to an operation. When promoted to command he sanctioned many operations where the targeting was indiscriminate at best.

In 1987 a bomb was targeted at a Remembrance Day parade. Eleven people were killed, sixty-three people were injured. Sinn Féin's publicity director Danny Morrison describing himself as "shattered" on hearing that the IRA was involved at all. However best was yet to come, one little incident failed to make much headlines, the other bomb in this little operation. This bomb four times larger was placed at a similar but smaller parade 20 miles (32 km) away at Tullyhommon. That parade was conducted by members of the Boys' Brigade, Girls' Brigade and "three or four members of the security forces in uniform there to lay a wreath". That bomb failed to explode.

McGuinness was the head of the IRA's Northern Command which not only sanctioned the Enniskillen bombing which left 11 civilians dead, it was in overall command of the operation, liaising with the three units involved.

In the aftermath of the attack the IRA insisted that its leadership had not sanctioned the bombing, however its Fermanagh Brigade was stood down. Then In 1997 Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams apologised for the bombing on behalf of the republican movement.

Do you see the difference?

One man sanctioned a strike back at what he believed were to be solely military targets, when he heard the results, he changed his belief in the application of violent methods.

One man not only shot people he was top sniper at one time, he liked to attend interrogations of his own people, which were very brutal. Black and decker drills, sandbags and death for the person being interrogated were a regular occurence of these interrogations.

This second man went on to sanction loads of operations involving civilian casualties, one which if one of the bombs of a dual strike operation had exploded, would have taken out a troop of girl's brigade and members of the Boys Brigade in order to possibly injure or kill up to 4 members of the UDR/RUC. The other bomb did explode and, to paraphase, "killed old-aged pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day? Where's the glory in that?"

Boys brigade, Girl's Brigade and old age pensioners, legitimate military targets?

Wow, that was a long winded response and again, you've chosen to elaborate on the degrees of violence associated with both men when my objective was just to highlight that these two men were following the same path and who knows where it would have led Mandela had he not been incarcerated?

Like I said, he gave the go ahead for the Church Street bombing so he still had a huge amount of influence over that organization, a group that continued to plant bombs, landmines and kill people, however much you like to disassociate Mandela with their activities. He's a clever man who'll try to distance himself from that part of things because he's now a figurehead for peace, that's all.

The Remembrance Day bombing was a sickening act that should never have happened but again, McGuinness can't be connected to it. That's how these things work.

[WOMBAI]

Murder is murder - whatever the so-called political cause. No one has the right to kill others for a cause they believe in! Never justified!

I just think it is atrocious that people who murdered others (whether directly or otherwise) are allowed to become polititians and represent their party. It just makes a joke of the whole political process!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Murder is murder - whatever the so-called political cause. No one has the right to kill others for a cause they believe in! Never justified!

Your perspective changes according to where you're sitting.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

Your perspective changes according to where you're sitting.

Not if you are a Christian it does not.




If you look at the vast majority of political change over the last 500 years it has come about successfully by peaceful methods. That is what works and is lasting.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Not if you are a Christian it does not.




If you look at the vast majority of political change over the last 500 years it has come about successfully by peaceful methods. That is what works and is lasting.

It isn't or shouldn't be about religion. It is about normal human decency and value for the sanctity of life!

Agree that peaceful methods are the only true and lasting way of achieving political change! It is like people arguing on a chat show - who takes those that shout the loudest seriously - it is the calm, rational people that you listen to!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

It isn't or shouldn't be about religion. It is about normal human decency and value for the sanctity of life!

Agree that peaceful methods are the only true and lasting way of achieving political change! It is like people arguing on a chat show - who takes those that shout the loudest seriously - it is the calm, rational people that you listen to!

It wasn't really about religion though, it was about our country being invaded and our people being murdered and forced to speak another language

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Not if you are a Christian it does not.




If you look at the vast majority of political change over the last 500 years it has come about successfully by peaceful methods. That is what works and is lasting.

I do agree with you and the IRA are no more. But don't forget that the IRA were a reaction to an action not the other way around

[karezza]

McGuinness is a deranged psychopath.
He constantly smiles on camera but secretly co-ordinates attacks on Protestant homes.

[Niamh.]

LT You know what she means though, don't play dumb! These people may not have been "real" Christians in your eyes but they were fighting under the name of Christians in Gods name!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

LT You know what she means though, don't play dumb! These people may not have been "real" Christians in your eyes but they were fighting under the name of Christians in Gods name!

Then blame the individuals and not religion. simple.

[WOMBAI]

I consider McGuinness and the like a bunch of cowards who should have received life sentences!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

I consider McGuinness and the like a bunch of cowards who should have received life sentences!

and the soldiers involved in this should all receive life sentences

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

and the soldiers involved in this should all receive life sentences

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

2 enquiries have been held about this. The first cleared the soldiers and the next one has not had its findings published so you cannot legally jail the soldiers.

You do want to keep to the law here?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

2 enquiries have been held about this. The first cleared the soldiers and the next one has not had its findings published so you cannot legally jail the soldiers.

You do want to keep to the law here?

And I'm sure that was a proper enquiry.................. As I said before peoples perceptions of what is right and what is wrong all depends on where you are sitting.