[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

And in the same way you could argue that this was because of good individuals not not down to Jesus

you could if they had not done the deeds according to the teachings of Christianity and Jesus and therein lies the crucial difference.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

you could if they had not done the deeds according to the teachings of Christianity and Jesus and therein lies the crucial difference.

So without those teachings they would have been at a complete lose on how to do good things then is it?

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

you could if they had not done the deeds according to the teachings of Christianity and Jesus and therein lies the crucial difference.

A sense of decency and compassion comes from within - and is part of a person's genetic make-up. It cannot be taught - therefore has nothing to do with religion.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by setanta

I don't see many to be honest with you: two individuals fighting in the name of their people by any means necessary. There's degrees of bloodletting, violence and death to you when fighting for an ideal? Not to me. Mandela has admitted to being involved with one bombing that killed many lives after you had said previously that he had no power over the organization after being imprisoned. That proves to me that he still had a huge influence on their strategies. He was their leader and founder for feck sake.

Lets put things in perspective. Mandela sanctioned operations to take place against legitimate military targets, not the actual operation itself. The result of some operations by the South African Military against ANC targets outside of South Africa. On hearing of the outcome of the Church Street Bombing he did, as you put it "sign off" violence.

The ANC's submission said that the bombing was in response to a South African cross-border raid into Lesotho in December 1982 which killed 42 ANC supporters and civilians, and the assassination of Ruth First, an ANC activist and wife of Joe Slovo, in Maputo, Mozambique. It claimed that 11 of the casualties were SAAF personnel and hence a military target. The legal representative of some of the victims argued that as administrative staff including telephonists and typists they could not accept that they were a legitimate military target.

Ten MK operatives including Aboobaker Ismail applied for amnesty for this and other bombings. The applications were opposed on various grounds, including that it was a terrorist attack disproportionate to the political motive. The TRC (truth And Reconciliation Commission) found that the number of civilians versus military personnel killed was unclear. South African Police statistics indicated that 7 members of the SAAF were killed. The commission found that at least 84 of the injured were SAAF members or employees. Amnesty was granted by the TRC

Now lets look at McGuinness, he took part in operations in his early years with the IRA as a sniper,thats a bit different than agreeing to an operation. When promoted to command he sanctioned many operations where the targeting was indiscriminate at best.

In 1987 a bomb was targeted at a Remembrance Day parade. Eleven people were killed, sixty-three people were injured. Sinn Féin's publicity director Danny Morrison describing himself as "shattered" on hearing that the IRA was involved at all. However best was yet to come, one little incident failed to make much headlines, the other bomb in this little operation. This bomb four times larger was placed at a similar but smaller parade 20 miles (32 km) away at Tullyhommon. That parade was conducted by members of the Boys' Brigade, Girls' Brigade and "three or four members of the security forces in uniform there to lay a wreath". That bomb failed to explode.

McGuinness was the head of the IRA's Northern Command which not only sanctioned the Enniskillen bombing which left 11 civilians dead, it was in overall command of the operation, liaising with the three units involved.

In the aftermath of the attack the IRA insisted that its leadership had not sanctioned the bombing, however its Fermanagh Brigade was stood down. Then In 1997 Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams apologised for the bombing on behalf of the republican movement.

Do you see the difference?

One man sanctioned a strike back at what he believed were to be solely military targets, when he heard the results, he changed his belief in the application of violent methods.

One man not only shot people he was top sniper at one time, he liked to attend interrogations of his own people, which were very brutal. Black and decker drills, sandbags and death for the person being interrogated were a regular occurence of these interrogations.

This second man went on to sanction loads of operations involving civilian casualties, one which if one of the bombs of a dual strike operation had exploded, would have taken out a troop of girl's brigade and members of the Boys Brigade in order to possibly injure or kill up to 4 members of the UDR/RUC. The other bomb did explode and, to paraphase, "killed old-aged pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day? Where's the glory in that?"

Boys brigade, Girl's Brigade and old age pensioners, legitimate military targets?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

A sense of decency and compassion comes from within - and is part of a person's genetic make-up. It cannot be taught - therefore has nothing to do with religion.

So how do you explain the death toll from secular wars in the 20th century. if you blame religion for the deaths say from the crusades (small beer in comparison) are we to blame man's genetic make-up for the 20th century and if so then we have a far greater culprit on our hands according to your logic?

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

So how do you explain the death toll from secular wars in the 20th century. if you blame religion for the deaths say from the crusades (small beer in comparison) are we to blame man's genetic make-up for the 20th century and if so then we have a far greater culprit on our hands according to your logic?

Most of the wars/conflicts throughout history have involved religion - which goes against what religion preaches - no small beer about it!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Most of the wars/conflicts throughout history have involved religion - which goes against what religion preaches - no small beer about it!

This is not factually correct. I think of all the wars of the last 2000 years 18% have been religiously motivated (there is a wiki page on this, I saw it on a DS answer in December).

Calculate the death toll of secular war and persecution from the 20th century and it obliterates all religious deaths over the last 2000 years. see my post about this earlier.

[WOMBAI]

I consider McGuinness and the like a bunch of cowards who should have received life sentences!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

I consider McGuinness and the like a bunch of cowards who should have received life sentences!

and the soldiers involved in this should all receive life sentences

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

and the soldiers involved in this should all receive life sentences

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

2 enquiries have been held about this. The first cleared the soldiers and the next one has not had its findings published so you cannot legally jail the soldiers.

You do want to keep to the law here?

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

and the soldiers involved in this should all receive life sentences

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

Yes they should be tried, in a court of law. So should their leaders and the politicians and civil servants who took the decisions to send that particular unit there at that time.

But only if all loyalist and nationalist paramilitaries own up to all their crimes and receive similar treatment.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

2 enquiries have been held about this. The first cleared the soldiers and the next one has not had its findings published so you cannot legally jail the soldiers.

You do want to keep to the law here?

And I'm sure that was a proper enquiry.................. As I said before peoples perceptions of what is right and what is wrong all depends on where you are sitting.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Yes they should be tried, in a court of law. So should their leaders and the politicians and civil servants who took the decisions to send that particular unit there at that time.

Thank you Shasown, atleast you seem to try and understand other peoples point of views.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

Thank you Shasown, atleast you seem to try and understand other peoples point of views.

If nothing else, something along the lines of the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission would provide some comfort to all the victims and relatives of all the casualties in that conflict.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

And I'm sure that was a proper enquiry.................. As I said before peoples perceptions of what is right and what is wrong all depends on where you are sitting.

Are you saying that the enquiry was not legal?

Either you accept the law or you do not. Suggesting that it was improper is irrelevant when law is concerned, just as saying that you should not have gotten a speeding ticket.

hence the reason for law.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

and the soldiers involved in this should all receive life sentences

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

Maybe! Whatever the rights and wrongs of that situation - at least it wasn't planned and, therefore, pre-meditated like the bombings - which determines the difference between manslaughter and murder, to my understanding, in the eyes of the law!

[Niamh.]

lol, WOMBAI and LT, I am not a Solicitor and this is not a court of Law, It is a forum where I am expressing my opinion. The justice system has failed the Irish in regards to the North previously (Brimingham 6, Gilford 4) so you'll excuse me for not having a high regard for it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

lol, WOMBAI and LT, I am not a Solicitor and this is not a court of Law, It is a forum where I am expressing my opinion. The justice system has failed the Irish in regards to the North previously (Brimingham 6, Gilford 4) so you'll excuse me for not having a high regard for it.

But without it you have nothing. You have to agree to abide by it.


here is something to take our minds off nasty anglo-irish politics

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=31e_1268133438

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

But without it you have nothing. You have to agree to abide by it.


here is something to take our minds off nasty anglo-irish politics

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=31e_1268133438

That is one of the most revolting things I've ever seen, cheers.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

That is one of the most revolting things I've ever seen, cheers.

apparently he had been going around all week saying "do you smell maggots?"

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

apparently he had been going around all week saying "do you smell maggots?"

I turned it of after about a second, I feel sick........

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Lets put things in perspective. Mandela sanctioned operations to take place against legitimate military targets, not the actual operation itself. The result of some operations by the South African Military against ANC targets outside of South Africa. On hearing of the outcome of the Church Street Bombing he did, as you put it "sign off" violence.



Now lets look at McGuinness, he took part in operations in his early years with the IRA as a sniper,thats a bit different than agreeing to an operation. When promoted to command he sanctioned many operations where the targeting was indiscriminate at best.

In 1987 a bomb was targeted at a Remembrance Day parade. Eleven people were killed, sixty-three people were injured. Sinn Féin's publicity director Danny Morrison describing himself as "shattered" on hearing that the IRA was involved at all. However best was yet to come, one little incident failed to make much headlines, the other bomb in this little operation. This bomb four times larger was placed at a similar but smaller parade 20 miles (32 km) away at Tullyhommon. That parade was conducted by members of the Boys' Brigade, Girls' Brigade and "three or four members of the security forces in uniform there to lay a wreath". That bomb failed to explode.

McGuinness was the head of the IRA's Northern Command which not only sanctioned the Enniskillen bombing which left 11 civilians dead, it was in overall command of the operation, liaising with the three units involved.

In the aftermath of the attack the IRA insisted that its leadership had not sanctioned the bombing, however its Fermanagh Brigade was stood down. Then In 1997 Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams apologised for the bombing on behalf of the republican movement.

Do you see the difference?

One man sanctioned a strike back at what he believed were to be solely military targets, when he heard the results, he changed his belief in the application of violent methods.

One man not only shot people he was top sniper at one time, he liked to attend interrogations of his own people, which were very brutal. Black and decker drills, sandbags and death for the person being interrogated were a regular occurence of these interrogations.

This second man went on to sanction loads of operations involving civilian casualties, one which if one of the bombs of a dual strike operation had exploded, would have taken out a troop of girl's brigade and members of the Boys Brigade in order to possibly injure or kill up to 4 members of the UDR/RUC. The other bomb did explode and, to paraphase, "killed old-aged pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day? Where's the glory in that?"

Boys brigade, Girl's Brigade and old age pensioners, legitimate military targets?

Wow, that was a long winded response and again, you've chosen to elaborate on the degrees of violence associated with both men when my objective was just to highlight that these two men were following the same path and who knows where it would have led Mandela had he not been incarcerated?

Like I said, he gave the go ahead for the Church Street bombing so he still had a huge amount of influence over that organization, a group that continued to plant bombs, landmines and kill people, however much you like to disassociate Mandela with their activities. He's a clever man who'll try to distance himself from that part of things because he's now a figurehead for peace, that's all.

The Remembrance Day bombing was a sickening act that should never have happened but again, McGuinness can't be connected to it. That's how these things work.

[sooty]

I feel like watching tennis.

My head is ,,,,,,right ,,,left,,,,right,,left,,.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Maybe! Whatever the rights and wrongs of that situation - at least it wasn't planned and, therefore, pre-meditated like the bombings - which determines the difference between manslaughter and murder, to my understanding, in the eyes of the law!

I have to get involved here because I've read up on the SAS's tactics when they were brought in to battle against the IRA and they ambushed and shot down many IRA members that weren't even armed at the time. I mean, every single person involved in the Troubles has blood on their hands, and don't get me started on Bloody Sunday.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by setanta

I have to get involved here because I've read up on the SAS's tactics when they were brought in to battle against the IRA and they ambushed and shot down many IRA members that weren't even armed at the time. I mean, every single person involved in the Troubles has blood on their hands, and don't get me started on Bloody Sunday.

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