[arista]

[BBC withdrew from Stonewall diversity
scheme because it didn't want to
appear biased when covering transgender
and women's rights issues
Director of Nations Rhodri Talfan Davies
revealed the reason for quitting scheme
He said trust BBC can approach
'complex areas' with impartiality is 'the bedrock'
Beeb said on Wednesday it
wouldn't be renewing its participation
with Stonewall
But it will continue to work with
a range of organisations to support its LGBT staff]

[Along with many other UK employers,
the BBC has participated in
Stonewall's Diversity Champions Programme
to support our objective to create
a fully inclusive workplace.
'However, over time, our participation
in the programme has led some to
question whether the BBC can be
impartial when reporting on public policy debates
where Stonewall is taking an active role.']

[More than 900 organisations in the UK have
signed up to the scheme,
which aims to promote inclusion in the workplace.

It is described by Stonewall as
'the leading employers' programme for
ensuring all LGBTQ+ staff are free to
be themselves in the workplace'.

Following the announcement,
Stonewall said the BBC's decision was 'a shame'.]


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ar-biased.html

Good Move by the Bloated BBC.

[Toy Soldier]

Stonewall is trash and the Diversity Champions Programme is some of the worst of it. Completely rooted in arbitrary ideology, not one iota of social research has gone into any of it.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Stonewall is trash and the Diversity Champions Programme is some of the worst of it. Completely rooted in arbitrary ideology, not one iota of social research has gone into any of it.

and it was affecting the views of the companies that were in it, because they had to demonstrate how company employees were adhering to it. They should never have signed up for it in the first place

[Toy Soldier]

The sad thing is that they did SO much good for gay rights for decades, which is of course what built them the good reputation that has been used to gain positions of trust like this. But today’s issues need a scalpel not a hammer, science not simple ideology, and that’s where it’s all gone completely wrong.

The fundamental flaw is this bizarre belief that sexuality and gender are even remotely similar in terms of the impact of evolving rights. The revisionist notion that Gay Rights was ever about identity politics.

[Cherie]

If the BBC are backing off you know its gone astray

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

If the BBC are backing off you know its gone astray

The Nolan investigates Pod Casts had a lot to do with it as well I think, they're really good if you're ever looking for something to listen to, they're all on YouTube

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The Nolan investigates Pod Casts had a lot to do with it as well I think, they're really good if you're ever looking for something to listen to, they're all on YouTube

Oh cheers will have a search for those

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The sad thing is that they did SO much good for gay rights for decades, which is of course what built them the good reputation that has been used to gain positions of trust like this. But today’s issues need a scalpel not a hammer, science not simple ideology, and that’s where it’s all gone completely wrong.

The fundamental flaw is this bizarre belief that sexuality and gender are even remotely similar in terms of the impact of evolving rights. The revisionist notion that Gay Rights was ever about identity politics.

Well this is the thing, sexual orientation which is what Stonewall fought for years to have accepted for gay and lesbian people is now actually transphobic by their standards today

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's in the name, 'Stonewall.'

Go look up the Stonewall riots, go look up the people who were instrumental in it, go look up their impact on civil rights as a whole. Most of them were trans people of colour, and the fight for gay rights is just as much about trans rights as it is about anything else, because it was trans people that threw the first brick and begun the march towards what we have today.

If you can’t see why 90% of your post isn’t an argument against Stonewall being a high-level advisory group in corporations and governments then I don’t know what to say. Political pressure groups absolutely have their place in social progress, policy advisory groups absolutely have their place in social progress. Not when both are the same organisation. When deciding policy what’s required is robust social research and a careful examination of best-practice, not brick throwing, riots and base ideology. This is honestly the crux of the entire issue. This is where - if you can look past the bigots who just want a bandwagon to jump on - 99% of the problem lies. They’re pushing policy change with no evidence base. That is a disaster.

And in the vast majority of cases you’ll find that trans people are not what anyone has an issue with, but rather gender theory being hammered as fact rather than open for debate, a drive to make rampant stereotyping immune from critique, self-id and the ways it benefits predators. The common error there often being people thinking “oh you’re calling trans people predators!” - no, people are pointing out that male predators will have no qualms with pretending to be trans. And the elephant in the room - that there IS a proportion of people who lump themselves in with genuine gender dysphoria but it’s actually autogynephilia and fetishism. Ignoring these issues helps no one, least of all trans people.

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

A lovely bit of patronisation, thank you.

Doesn't change the fact that Trans rights are LGBT rights and that if you oppose one of those letters, you oppose them all. You simply don't have gay rights in the west without Stonewall, you don't have gay rights without trans rights. It is intertwined.

This is dated rhetoric; you can't shut down this debate by calling people patronising or telling them that they have no place in it any more, it's not 2017. You can debate the topic on the facts and on it's merits and on hard evidence of what is actually best practice with good outcomes or ... I guess you're free to soap-box but it's not part of the debate is it. Not worth listening to.

No one is opposing trans rights, people are opposing the idea that academic discussion and a committment to evidence-based best practice is akin to oppossing rights. I know there are people who would like to claim that any discussion = opposition. Those people are either disingenuous or simply lack a basic understanding of academic discourse, or an understanding that policy needs to be informed by said academic discourse (and not "I feel..." statements) to be worth the paper it's written on. None of that is anyone's problem other than their own.

The sentiment that "if you have concerns about one you have concerns about all" is simply a flat-out false narrative; it simply has to be, because there are plenty of gay people (especially gay women) who have MASSIVE concerns that they would like to have addressed, and I have seen many of these women attacked and harrassed horrendously. This "one is all" line is little more than the same dogma everyone has heard many times over. Women have concerns. Lesbian women have concerns. Those concerns can't continue to be swept away (mostly by gay men, in a sad irony of complex privilege) under a banner heading of "any concern = transphobia". It's a ****ing lie.

Also thank you Mr Straight cis-man for trying to declare a bunch of trans people as fetishists. I'm sure you know better than actual transpeople about how they feel.

I'll ignore the banal ad-hominem and ask if you're claiming that autogynephilic fetishism doesn't exist, because I didn't suggest for a second that this is the root of transexuality or that it's anything other than a small fringe group. They are in the minority but to suggest they don't exist is objectively false and everyone either knows it or is wearing blinkers because there have been a number of high-profile examples, as well as many dedicated forums and subreddits. It's also true that that small fringe group USES the "stonewalling" of the trans rights debate as a shield against something entirely different and I can think of no feasible reason that genuine trans people wouldn't be more angry about that than they are about the people who have concerns about it. But you're right, they're free to feel how they feel about whatever they want to feel anything about.

As are we all.

[Cherie]

Why can’t straight men have an opinion...they will have women in their lives who this affects ...who knows they might even have LGBTQ relatives...gasp

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Political pressure groups absolutely have their place in social progress, policy advisory groups absolutely have their place in social progress. Not when both are the same organisation. When deciding policy what’s required is robust social research and a careful examination of best-practice, not brick throwing, riots and base ideology. This is honestly the crux of the entire issue. This is where - if you can look past the bigots who just want a bandwagon to jump on - 99% of the problem lies. They’re pushing policy change with no evidence base. That is a disaster.

Thing is, LGBT people have all the legal rights we actually need. So what are "activist" corporations going to do - call it a day and shut shop? Of course not.

So they need to invent issues to keep on banging the drum about. And they are basically genius conartists for coming up with their diversity index - not only do companies have to pay to be included on it, they can include their standing by giving Stonewall more money in exchange for poxy courses!

They're no better than any other fatcat corporations.

People who care for the rights of lesbians should be calling to protect lesbian spaces (and woman only spaces in general) which are compromised by the inclusion of transwomen.

[Livia]

About time.

[arista]

[arista]

No Fella

[arista]

No
you have no right to Demand
anything


Take it to Ofcom

[arista]

Outside BBC Central London.

[arista]

[arista]

Spoiler:

Large Photo
Sunday Times V2 Section BBC news boss
today.

[Cherie]

No way imagine how awful it must be to hear diverse views while working at a publically funded broadcaster .... the poor pets ...someone grab the smelling salts

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

A bunch of straight people cheering this on is peak Tibb. Just grow a backbone, stop hiding behind a smokescreen, and say what you really want to say. It's fairly obvious to anyone with eyes, anyway.

Yeah, and it’s such a shame, because trans people were at the frontline for the fight for women’s rights, and at the front line of stone wall, and to watch people who’d otherwise prod themselves around as allies throw trans people under the bus is so sad.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

A bunch of straight people cheering this on is peak Tibb. Just grow a backbone, stop hiding behind a smokescreen, and say what you really want to say. It's fairly obvious to anyone with eyes, anyway.

I can't speak for anyone else on this thread but it isn't about gay rights for me. It's about how trans rights directly affect women's rights and I am a woman so why don't I have a right to speak about something that would affect me? Why are women not allowed a voice in this discussion?