[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Zippy

religious hang ups probably

they all just hop on a ferry and come here to get it done

I'm in no way, shape or form religious, doesn't mean I don't value life.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm in no way, shape or form religious, doesn't mean I don't value life.

so your anti abortion?

Pro-choicers value life too. But not life in any form or at any stage. We'd never swat a fly or eat chicken otherwise.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Zippy

so your anti abortion?

Pro-choicers value life too. But not life in any form or at any stage. We'd never swat a fly or eat chicken otherwise.

I don't know what I am really, I do understand that most people who have abortions aren't evil and it probably was a very difficult decision to make but I know I personally could never do it because I would feel like I was murdering not only another human but my own child. I don't know when a life actually becomes a life but for me it would feel wrong.

[Iceman]

If people want to have an abortion then that's up to them, who is anyone to say No you cant. It's their decision at the end of the day. Just what I think on the topic...

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Iceman

If people want to have an abortion then that's up to them, who is anyone to say No you cant. It's their decision at the end of the day. Just what I think on the topic...

exactly. you're pro-choice like all sensible people...and countries.

it's not like anybodies championing abortions. Just accepting that its the womans body and she and only she can make the decision. The foetus is a dependent part of her body after all.

[Liberty4eva]

Originally Posted by Zippy

All civilised countries are pro-choice when it comes to abortion.

Drilling a hole in the back of a baby's head and sucking its brains out. Countries where that is allowed to happen are civilized? I couldn't disagree more. Countries where that is allowed to happen are barbaric.

And of course I use and will continue to use inflammatory language. I have read enough partial birth abortion stories where for me to not be really pissed off would practically mean I'm inhuman.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Drilling a hole in the back of a baby's head and sucking its brains out. Countries where that is allowed to happen are civilized? I couldn't disagree more. Countries where that is allowed to happen are barbaric.

And of course I use and will continue to use inflammatory language. I have read enough partial birth abortion stories where for me to not be really pissed off would practically mean I'm inhuman.

Ive actually never heard of this

But I do know that if you get an abortion early enough, nothing like this is involved. Its more a 'tablet induced miscarriage'.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Ashamed to say we gotta be the only species where the females usually don't want to have children. Not only do they not desire children but they will go out of their way to murder their own when it is convenient to do so. That's why the population numbers in the west are in decline because women in society are raised and grow up to be weak, pathetic people.

No we arent.

Female albatrosses will pair with another female and not lay eggs or rear young. Green iguanas will often eat their own eggs after laying fertilised or not. Female armadillos practice self induced abortion if conditions arent right after mating.

In herds or pack animals its not unheard of for lower ranked females to actively avoid mating when more dominant females will mate.

This serves two purposes, it allows them to stand in for the dominant female in a sort of childminder position while she is hunting etc. and also allows them to gain in strength and possibly challenge her after she is weak after birthing.

In some social groups of animals males will often stress a pregnant female to spontaneously induce abortion if the pregnancy was caused by a recently deposed leader

Lots of animals eat their young, I think that practice is generally frowned upon in humans nowadays but I am more than willing to be corrected on that one.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Drilling a hole in the back of a baby's head and sucking its brains out.

now you're just being ridiculous

come back when you can have a sensible debate without horror tactics

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Lots of animals eat their young, I think that practice is generally frowned upon in humans nowadays but I am more than willing to be corrected on that one.

One of gavs exes got the father of her child to eat the placenta after she gave birth. Apparently its for good luck. This just reminded me of sitting in horror listening to that story

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

One of gavs exes got the father of her child to eat the placenta after she gave birth. Apparently its for good luck. This just reminded me of sitting in horror listening to that story :yuck:

oh yeah, I've heard of that before

[Ninastar]

My science teacher said he tried placenta. he said its really chewy. but I don't believe him. he used to tell our class that he was trying for babies and it was like ewww

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

One of gavs exes got the father of her child to eat the placenta after she gave birth. Apparently its for good luck. This just reminded me of sitting in horror listening to that story

Eww your Gav must have weird taste in women

oh wait...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Eww your Gav must have weird taste in women

oh wait...

Pfft. Cheek

[Enid]

I think it's sexy.

[Zippy]

Hi Enid

no its not sexy. Go join Libertywhateva in the daft corner

[The Human Santapede]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

One of gavs exes got the father of her child to eat the placenta after she gave birth. Apparently its for good luck. This just reminded me of sitting in horror listening to that story

My friend wants to do that!

[Liberty4eva]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Ive actually never heard of this
But I do know that if you get an abortion early enough, nothing like this is involved. Its more a 'tablet induced miscarriage'.

Well, it happens. The strange thing is that what I said is technically true. This is an excerpt from an article titled Partial Birth Abortion on Trial.

Dr. Stephen Chasen... is associate professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the Weill Medical College of Cornell University. He has done 500 abortions in his career, including 200 dismemberment and 75 partial-birth abortions. In his expert testimony he described the way he finds the place on the baby’s head to puncture: “I place a clamp on the front part of the cervix and, applying mild traction to this, it exposes the skin at the back of the fetal neck at the site through which I place the scissors. So I can in almost all cases actually visualize the spot through which I place the scissors.

On cross-examination, counsel for the Government walked him through the steps he takes in a partial-birth abortion:
Q. You wrap a small sterile towel around the fetus, because it is slippery, and after the legs are out you pull on the sacrum, or the lower portion of the spine, to continue to remove the fetus, right?
A. Right.
Q. When the fetus is out to the level of the breech, you place another, larger towel around the first small towel, right?
A. Right.
Q. You gently pull downward on the sacrum until the shoulder blades appear, right?
A. Right.
Q. Then, with your hand on the fetus’s back, holding it with the towel, you twist in a clockwise or counterclockwise motion to rotate the shoulder, right?
A. Right.
Q. The shoulder in front or the arm in front is swept out with your fingers, and then you rotate the other side of the fetus to sweep out the other arm, right?
A. Right.
Q. Then the fetus is at a point where only the head remains in the cervix, correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. That is when you make the decision based on the gestational age and the amount of cervical dilation, whether the head will fit out intact, whether you can tuck the head of the fetus to its chest, or whether you have to decompress the skull to remove the fetus’s head, right?
A. It is based on the size of the fetal head and the cervical dilation. I don’t directly consider the gestational age.
Q. If you are able to deliver the head by flexing the chin against the fetal chest—and you have been able to do this several times . . . Doctor?
A. There have been a few occasions, yes.
Q. Then you remove the fetus with the towel, you put it on the table, and you turn back to the woman to deal with the placenta, right?
A. That’s right.
Q. If you can’t do that, you know you are going to have to crush the head, and so you take a clamp and you grasp the cervix to elevate it, and then your assistant there in the operating room will pull down on the fetus’s legs or back, gently lowering the fetus’s head toward the opening of the vagina, right?
A. Right.
Q. That is when you put two fingers at the back of the fetus’s neck at the base of the skull where you can feel the base of the skull, and then you puncture the skull with the scissors, right?
A. I usually can see it as well as feel it. But yes.
Q. At that point you see some brain tissue come out, and you are 100 percent certain that you are in the brain, so you open the scissors to expand the hole, remove the scissors, and put the suction device in the skull, right?
A. Correct.
Q. You turn on the suction, and typically the fetus comes right out with the suction device still in its skull, right?
A. Right

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Well, it happens. The strange thing is that what I said is technically true. This is an excerpt from an article titled Partial Birth Abortion on Trial.

Lovely, but partial birth abortions are only one type of abortion option available for terminations after about 20 weeks.

Most abortions in the UK occur well before 20 weeks. After 24 weeks medical abortions are very rare. Whilst this procedure is not illegal its very difficult to find doctors who will admit that they do carry out this particular practice in the UK.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Ashamed to say we gotta be the only species where the females usually don't want to have children. Not only do they not desire children but they will go out of their way to murder their own when it is convenient to do so. That's why the population numbers in the west are in decline because women in society are raised and grow up to be weak, pathetic people.

Adoption? That's not an option for many because, whether they'll admit it or not, they fear they'll become emotionally attached to their baby and, as some have unashamedly commented here, they'll have to endure hours of pain to deliver. You'd rather kill your own than endure a few hours of pain. Can you hear yourselves?

And the "life doesn't begin at conception" theory is just a loophole they create so they can sleep at night and not feel like murderers. Whether or not there is a god, those who say life does not begin at conception will inevitably play god. And that's because life must begin at some point. There must be some point where it, for lack of a better word, graduates from a clump of cells and tissue with no rights to a human being with all rights that you and I have. If that moment is not at conception then perhaps it's the moment the baby is delivered? Perhaps it's the moment when the brain is fully developed? Perhaps it's the moment when it can recognize its mother's voice? Perhaps it's the moment the US Supreme Court ruled life begins which is when the baby could theoritically live outside of the womb? Perhaps it's, as someone commented here, 20 weeks after conception? Whatever it is, those of you who are arrogant enough to say "life doesn't begin at conception" have the responsibility to say when life truly does begin. Whatever that moment is YOU ARE PLAYING GOD. I, on the other hand, refuse to play god and will say life may begin at conception and, that being the case, this baby/fetus should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Whatever you may say about this issue, it is still just YOUR belief which you are trying to push onto others. I'm with the US Supreme Court on this, in that a baby is a baby once it is "viable", ie able to theoretically live independent from the woman outside of the womb. Meanwhile you still do not have the right to compel a woman to carry a baby she doesn't want (for whatever reason) for nine months, with all the potential attendant physical dangers and emotional traumas.

You might well refuse to play god, but being a man, you have the luxury of never having to be in a position to have to make that decision and live with it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

Ashamed to say we gotta be the only species where the females usually don't want to have children. Not only do they not desire children but they will go out of their way to murder their own when it is convenient to do so. That's why the population numbers in the west are in decline because women in society are raised and grow up to be weak, pathetic people.

Adoption? That's not an option for many because, whether they'll admit it or not, they fear they'll become emotionally attached to their baby and, as some have unashamedly commented here, they'll have to endure hours of pain to deliver. You'd rather kill your own than endure a few hours of pain. Can you hear yourselves?

And the "life doesn't begin at conception" theory is just a loophole they create so they can sleep at night and not feel like murderers. Whether or not there is a god, those who say life does not begin at conception will inevitably play god. And that's because life must begin at some point. There must be some point where it, for lack of a better word, graduates from a clump of cells and tissue with no rights to a human being with all rights that you and I have. If that moment is not at conception then perhaps it's the moment the baby is delivered? Perhaps it's the moment when the brain is fully developed? Perhaps it's the moment when it can recognize its mother's voice? Perhaps it's the moment the US Supreme Court ruled life begins which is when the baby could theoritically live outside of the womb? Perhaps it's, as someone commented here, 20 weeks after conception? Whatever it is, those of you who are arrogant enough to say "life doesn't begin at conception" have the responsibility to say when life truly does begin. Whatever that moment is YOU ARE PLAYING GOD. I, on the other hand, refuse to play god and will say life may begin at conception and, that being the case, this baby/fetus should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Wow, aren't you judgemental.

For once I pretty much agree with Angus here. Abortion isn't a black and white issue like Pro-lifers make it out to be and it's very easy for people to judge who have never been in that position.

[Jessica.]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...life-odds.html

[Liberty4eva]

Originally Posted by angus58

Whatever you may say about this issue, it is still just YOUR belief which you are trying to push onto others. I'm with the US Supreme Court on this, in that a baby is a baby once it is "viable", ie able to theoretically live independent from the woman outside of the womb. Meanwhile you still do not have the right to compel a woman to carry a baby she doesn't want (for whatever reason) for nine months, with all the potential attendant physical dangers and emotional traumas.

You might well refuse to play god, but being a man, you have the luxury of never having to be in a position to have to make that decision and live with it.

We're all connected in this world, honey. If I unintentionally impregnate a woman I certainly won't have any kind of luxury. Maybe next time we're deciding whether or not to go to war we should ignore the females since they have the "luxury" of not doing the fighting? Like I say, we're all connected.

In this day and age with the technology available, the "physical dangers" are at a minimum and if there is a potential danger the body will almost always abort it naturally. And "emotional traumas"? Come on. Like I said earlier, women are raised to be weak people.

You try to spin it like I'm trying to "compel" women like they all innocently and without reason just randomly become pregnant. I don't compel them to have sex so I don't see how I'm compelling them to do anything. You tell me: Are women stupid? Do they not know what may happen if they sleep with a guy? Whenever this debate occurs it's always framed around bodily freedom but it ought to be framed around the freedom to be a slut without consequence because that's what it, for the most part, is about. You show me a rabid pro-choice female freak, and I'll bet money that she's a bona fide slut.

And, yeah, I know I'm gonna get hell from you and others for what I've said here but whatever. I'll take it with a smile.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

You show me a rabid pro-choice female freak, and I'll bet money that she's a bona fide slut.

wow you're really throwing out some outrageously dumb lines.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

We're all connected in this world, honey. If I unintentionally impregnate a woman I certainly won't have any kind of luxury. Maybe next time we're deciding whether or not to go to war we should ignore the females since they have the "luxury" of not doing the fighting? Like I say, we're all connected.

In this day and age with the technology available, the "physical dangers" are at a minimum and if there is a potential danger the body will almost always abort it naturally. And "emotional traumas"? Come on. Like I said earlier, women are raised to be weak people.

You try to spin it like I'm trying to "compel" women like they all innocently and without reason just randomly become pregnant. I don't compel them to have sex so I don't see how I'm compelling them to do anything. You tell me: Are women stupid? Do they not know what may happen if they sleep with a guy? Whenever this debate occurs it's always framed around bodily freedom but it ought to be framed around the freedom to be a slut without consequence because that's what it, for the most part, is about. You show me a rabid pro-choice female freak, and I'll bet money that she's a bona fide slut.

And, yeah, I know I'm gonna get hell from you and others for what I've said here but whatever. I'll take it with a smile.

I'm sorry but that's absolutely ridiculous, I refuse to take anything else you say seriously as I think you must be pulling our legs. You can't be that outrageously ignorant.