[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

As with the riots thread the mechanism and the reason isn't the same thing - and again I'd use the metaphor of seeing a flood and blaming the rain. Where we're at is a disaster but the path to getting here is an awful lot more complicated than "people are just bigots who don't like trans". And that's not even to say that a lot of those people don't exist. Sort of like... woodlice exist... and they're going to start crawling out from under your skirting board if you don't keep the floorboards dry, and they'll keep coming.

I'm not feeling very charitable about people after this weekend apparently .

Come on dude. No one has talked more about the nuance around these issues than we have, but there is no nuance about how this happened. It's not her first Olympics, yet this is the first problematic one. JK Rowling and her merry band of far right affiliates haven't shown a single curious thought on this.

I don't doubt that you see it as a complex issue, but you weren't the one screaming about her to begin with.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Come on dude. No one has talked more about the nuance around these issues than we have, but there is no nuance about how this happened. It's not her first Olympics, yet this is the first problematic one. JK Rowling and her merry band of far right affiliates haven't shown a single curious thought on this.

I don't doubt that you see it as a complex issue, but you weren't the one screaming about her to begin with.

I don't deny at all that a door has been left wide open to the "right", I just don't think that spawned out of thin air, nor do I think it's the "fault" of anyone in particular, other than anti-intellectualism as a broad concept that spans the entire political spectrum. They don't have a single curious thought about anything whatsoever, that's my point really. Woodlice. They're just "there", and stomping on them might be satisfying but there'll just be more tomorrow. And JK Rowling might be extremely famous and a billionaire but she's at the end of the day just as reactionary as the rest of them, with a bigger platform. I genuinely believe she started out well-meaning. I think there are clear indications that at this point she's unwittingly become marginally radicalised.

Remember when Gove said that the British public are "tired of hearing from experts"? He wasn't wrong, other than the part where it's not just the UK. Very angry, very loud progressives fought (and still fight, hard) against academics concerned with anything resembling reasonable compromise. It's a tactic that can be traced directly to Stonewall.

There's no nuance in describing WHAT has happened in this case but of course there's nuance and complexity in trying to examine how we got here and dividing the issue neatly into goodies and baddies is a huge oversimplification.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Come on dude. No one has talked more about the nuance around these issues than we have, but there is no nuance about how this happened. It's not her first Olympics, yet this is the first problematic one. JK Rowling and her merry band of far right affiliates haven't shown a single curious thought on this.

I don't doubt that you see it as a complex issue, but you weren't the one screaming about her to begin with.

tbf from what I've read that's because in between this and the last Olympics both of the boxers in question failed tests under IBA and were not allowed to compete in the World Championships in 2023, obviously that would then raise questions

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

tbf from what I've read that's because in between this and the last Olympics both of the boxers in question failed tests under IBA and were not allowed to compete in the World Championships in 2023, obviously that would then raise questions

…it’s more layers of complications on that as well, I think…in that the IBA is a body that were banned from the Olympics in 2019 because of continued disputes about decisions/type thing…so nothing about this seems entirely clear with the ‘elevated levels’ also…

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…it’s more layers of complications on that as well, I think…in that the IBA is a body that were banned from the Olympics in 2019 because of continued disputes about decisions/type thing…so nothing about this seems entirely clear with the ‘elevated levels’ also…

Yeah that's true, there was some shocking ref decisions in the 2016 Olympics especially, Michael Conlan getting beat by a Russian fighter was one of the worst and also Katie suffered from a bad decision that year, both of them went pro after that (probably because of that)

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah that's true, there was some shocking ref decisions in the 2016 Olympics especially, Michael Conlan getting beat by a Russian fighter was one of the worst and also Katie suffered from a bad decision that year, both of them went pro after that (probably because of that)

…the IBA are a Russian body…(…I believe, but I might be incorrect about that…)…and have had ‘bias’ levelled at them…and yeah, it just all adds to the confusion of it all…

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…the IBA are a Russian body…(…I believe, but I might be incorrect about that…)…and have had ‘bias’ levelled at them…and yeah, it just all adds to the confusion of it all…

Ah that would explain a few things alright

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

tbf from what I've read that's because in between this and the last Olympics both of the boxers in question failed tests under IBA and were not allowed to compete in the World Championships in 2023, obviously that would then raise questions

From what I've read, the IBA is supposed to be extremely corrupt, with lots of Russian money flowing through it. The initial complaint against her was made by a beaten Russian boxer. I can't be 100% on the validity of this, as obviously this is the age of misinformation, but it seems to check out.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

From what I've read, the IBA is supposed to be extremely corrupt, with lots of Russian money flowing through it. The initial complaint against her was made by a beaten Russian boxer. I can't be 100% on the validity of this, as obviously this is the age of misinformation, but it seems to check out.

…yeah, I just couldn’t think of that word I was searching for…’corrupt’……so I said bias, but yeah…I would say that ‘corrupt’ in the decision as an equal possibility as ‘elevated testosterone levels..’…that’s the thing, it feels so messy all through, doesn’t it…

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…yeah, I just couldn’t think of that word I was searching for…’corrupt’……so I said bias, but yeah…I would say that ‘corrupt’ in the decision as an equal possibility as ‘elevated testosterone levels..’…that’s the thing, it feels so messy all through, doesn’t it…

The thing is, world class athletes pretty much all have these anomalies. Michael Phelps has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce only half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, and loads of other things I can't remember or be bothered to look up, but there is zero controversy around him being the most successful winner of all time.

Lebron James is 6'9, around 280lbs, but can sprint down the basketball court faster than anyone else.

Anomalies like these crop up in all competitive sports.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The thing is, world class athletes pretty much all have these anomalies. Michael Phelps has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce only half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, and loads of other things I can't remember or be bothered to look up, but there is zero controversy around him being the most successful winner of all time.

Lebron James is 6'9, around 280lbs, but can sprint down the basketball court faster than anyone else.

Anomalies like these crop up in all competitive sports.

…absolutely there is always going to be specifics and differences/peculiarities etc that can impact a performance and make exceptional athletes …with testosterone levels, though…it does have to be looked at more closely as it’s something more specific that we know tips that balance of ‘unfair’ at certain ‘enhanced’ levels ….

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The thing is, world class athletes pretty much all have these anomalies. Michael Phelps has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce only half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, and loads of other things I can't remember or be bothered to look up, but there is zero controversy around him being the most successful winner of all time.

Lebron James is 6'9, around 280lbs, but can sprint down the basketball court faster than anyone else.

Anomalies like these crop up in all competitive sports.

It's not the same thing though to actually having a Y chromosome (which is what IBA claimed their testing showed) and competing in the female category, the differences between males and females are just too great, it's the whole reason why the sports are separated by sex in the first place. For me the issue is if these tests were accurate or were the tampered with/lied about by IBA. There seems to be no clarity around that

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's not the same thing though to actually having a Y chromosome (which is what IBA claimed their testing showed) and competing in the female category, the differences between males and females are just too great, it's the whole reason why the sports are separated by sex in the first place. For me the issue is if these tests were accurate or were the tampered with/lied about by IBA. There seems to be no clarity around that

Imane is not a male though. She has been cleared to fight by the Olympic committee, not pride.

Genetic advantages are genetic advantages. They may manifest in totally different variations, but they absolutely exist, and give one competitor a massive advantage over another. She has lost 9 fights - she does not have any kind of advantage. This happened because an Italian woman gave up, and because she was probably embarrassed went on the attack (pity she didn't do that in the ring, but hey), and was fortunate enough to have found solace in the arms of Joanne.

I don't want to see a man fighting women, and so it's good that it isn't happening.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's not the same thing though to actually having a Y chromosome (which is what IBA claimed their testing showed) and competing in the female category, the differences between males and females are just too great, it's the whole reason why the sports are separated by sex in the first place. For me the issue is if these tests were accurate or were the tampered with/lied about by IBA. There seems to be no clarity around that

Well I think the IBA are corrupt. I’ve read that they are not allowed any part of the Olympics.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The thing is, world class athletes pretty much all have these anomalies. Michael Phelps has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce only half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, and loads of other things I can't remember or be bothered to look up, but there is zero controversy around him being the most successful winner of all time.

Lebron James is 6'9, around 280lbs, but can sprint down the basketball court faster than anyone else.

Anomalies like these crop up in all competitive sports.

The only difference is here is that we are talking about a combat Sport, where any huge Biological advantages could lead to the opponent getting seriously hurt under the wrong circumstances.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

The only difference is here is that we are talking about a combat Sport, where any huge Biological advantages could lead to the opponent getting seriously hurt under the wrong circumstances.

It's two women fighting each other. No more needs to be said. Deontay Wilder is considered the hardest punching heavy weight in history, is that too much of an advantage, so that he should be banned?

She learned to box because she had to fight the boys in her village who all bullied her for her non-conformist appearance. Now, normally, that story in itself would illicit a reaction of solidarity from females in particular, but instead, some people may think the bullies didn't go far enough, it seems.

Maybe her advantage is really the fact she's been boxing boys from a very young age, and probably has at least 4/5 years of extra training on most other women, although that's a guess as I have no idea what age girls generally pick up the sport.

I just don't get where this is coming from. No other woman has cried about her, and even the Italian woman has come back out and apologised. Embarrassment can force people to act in really weird ways, and that shouldn't be pandered to imo.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

From what I've read, the IBA is supposed to be extremely corrupt, with lots of Russian money flowing through it. The initial complaint against her was made by a beaten Russian boxer. I can't be 100% on the validity of this, as obviously this is the age of misinformation, but it seems to check out.

Cheeky considering some of horrific decisions favouring Russian fighters back in 2016. Yeah, I know, there's so much conflicting information floating around out there on this.