[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

In my opinion?

1) Because people are (in general) not all that capable of nuanced thinking and can't conceptualise that "sports and intersex conditions" and "sports and transgenderism" are similar, but entirely separate, discussions.

2) The issues around transwomen in women's sports should have been sensibly and reasonably examined before now -- long before now -- and decisions made on the grounds of research and safety, not what "feels right and seems fair".

3) That has not been able to happen because of the public discourse around gender ideology and gender politics. It's not a safe arena for study, and it's almost impossible to filter out the good faith, unbiased results from the flood of agenda-driven chaff from both angles.

4) Thus there is no room for any actual discussion around intersex conditions and equality/safety in sports because of 1).

My mistake, I thought it was because of a massive pile on from the same childrens authors, tv stations, and social media personalities as always.

In relation to 3, I was pleased to see that the BMA have recently picked up the cass report for a proper medical/scientific review.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

My mistake, I thought it was because of a massive pile on from the same childrens authors, tv stations, and social media personalities as always.

In relation to 3, I was pleased to see that the BMA have recently picked up the cass report for a proper medical/scientific review.

As with the riots thread the mechanism and the reason isn't the same thing - and again I'd use the metaphor of seeing a flood and blaming the rain. Where we're at is a disaster but the path to getting here is an awful lot more complicated than "people are just bigots who don't like trans". And that's not even to say that a lot of those people don't exist. Sort of like... woodlice exist... and they're going to start crawling out from under your skirting board if you don't keep the floorboards dry, and they'll keep coming.

I'm not feeling very charitable about people after this weekend apparently .

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

As with the riots thread the mechanism and the reason isn't the same thing - and again I'd use the metaphor of seeing a flood and blaming the rain. Where we're at is a disaster but the path to getting here is an awful lot more complicated than "people are just bigots who don't like trans". And that's not even to say that a lot of those people don't exist. Sort of like... woodlice exist... and they're going to start crawling out from under your skirting board if you don't keep the floorboards dry, and they'll keep coming.

I'm not feeling very charitable about people after this weekend apparently .

Come on dude. No one has talked more about the nuance around these issues than we have, but there is no nuance about how this happened. It's not her first Olympics, yet this is the first problematic one. JK Rowling and her merry band of far right affiliates haven't shown a single curious thought on this.

I don't doubt that you see it as a complex issue, but you weren't the one screaming about her to begin with.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Come on dude. No one has talked more about the nuance around these issues than we have, but there is no nuance about how this happened. It's not her first Olympics, yet this is the first problematic one. JK Rowling and her merry band of far right affiliates haven't shown a single curious thought on this.

I don't doubt that you see it as a complex issue, but you weren't the one screaming about her to begin with.

I don't deny at all that a door has been left wide open to the "right", I just don't think that spawned out of thin air, nor do I think it's the "fault" of anyone in particular, other than anti-intellectualism as a broad concept that spans the entire political spectrum. They don't have a single curious thought about anything whatsoever, that's my point really. Woodlice. They're just "there", and stomping on them might be satisfying but there'll just be more tomorrow. And JK Rowling might be extremely famous and a billionaire but she's at the end of the day just as reactionary as the rest of them, with a bigger platform. I genuinely believe she started out well-meaning. I think there are clear indications that at this point she's unwittingly become marginally radicalised.

Remember when Gove said that the British public are "tired of hearing from experts"? He wasn't wrong, other than the part where it's not just the UK. Very angry, very loud progressives fought (and still fight, hard) against academics concerned with anything resembling reasonable compromise. It's a tactic that can be traced directly to Stonewall.

There's no nuance in describing WHAT has happened in this case but of course there's nuance and complexity in trying to examine how we got here and dividing the issue neatly into goodies and baddies is a huge oversimplification.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Come on dude. No one has talked more about the nuance around these issues than we have, but there is no nuance about how this happened. It's not her first Olympics, yet this is the first problematic one. JK Rowling and her merry band of far right affiliates haven't shown a single curious thought on this.

I don't doubt that you see it as a complex issue, but you weren't the one screaming about her to begin with.

tbf from what I've read that's because in between this and the last Olympics both of the boxers in question failed tests under IBA and were not allowed to compete in the World Championships in 2023, obviously that would then raise questions

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

tbf from what I've read that's because in between this and the last Olympics both of the boxers in question failed tests under IBA and were not allowed to compete in the World Championships in 2023, obviously that would then raise questions

…it’s more layers of complications on that as well, I think…in that the IBA is a body that were banned from the Olympics in 2019 because of continued disputes about decisions/type thing…so nothing about this seems entirely clear with the ‘elevated levels’ also…

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…it’s more layers of complications on that as well, I think…in that the IBA is a body that were banned from the Olympics in 2019 because of continued disputes about decisions/type thing…so nothing about this seems entirely clear with the ‘elevated levels’ also…

Yeah that's true, there was some shocking ref decisions in the 2016 Olympics especially, Michael Conlan getting beat by a Russian fighter was one of the worst and also Katie suffered from a bad decision that year, both of them went pro after that (probably because of that)

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah that's true, there was some shocking ref decisions in the 2016 Olympics especially, Michael Conlan getting beat by a Russian fighter was one of the worst and also Katie suffered from a bad decision that year, both of them went pro after that (probably because of that)

…the IBA are a Russian body…(…I believe, but I might be incorrect about that…)…and have had ‘bias’ levelled at them…and yeah, it just all adds to the confusion of it all…

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

tbf from what I've read that's because in between this and the last Olympics both of the boxers in question failed tests under IBA and were not allowed to compete in the World Championships in 2023, obviously that would then raise questions

From what I've read, the IBA is supposed to be extremely corrupt, with lots of Russian money flowing through it. The initial complaint against her was made by a beaten Russian boxer. I can't be 100% on the validity of this, as obviously this is the age of misinformation, but it seems to check out.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

From what I've read, the IBA is supposed to be extremely corrupt, with lots of Russian money flowing through it. The initial complaint against her was made by a beaten Russian boxer. I can't be 100% on the validity of this, as obviously this is the age of misinformation, but it seems to check out.

…yeah, I just couldn’t think of that word I was searching for…’corrupt’……so I said bias, but yeah…I would say that ‘corrupt’ in the decision as an equal possibility as ‘elevated testosterone levels..’…that’s the thing, it feels so messy all through, doesn’t it…

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…yeah, I just couldn’t think of that word I was searching for…’corrupt’……so I said bias, but yeah…I would say that ‘corrupt’ in the decision as an equal possibility as ‘elevated testosterone levels..’…that’s the thing, it feels so messy all through, doesn’t it…

The thing is, world class athletes pretty much all have these anomalies. Michael Phelps has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce only half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, and loads of other things I can't remember or be bothered to look up, but there is zero controversy around him being the most successful winner of all time.

Lebron James is 6'9, around 280lbs, but can sprint down the basketball court faster than anyone else.

Anomalies like these crop up in all competitive sports.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

From what I've read, the IBA is supposed to be extremely corrupt, with lots of Russian money flowing through it. The initial complaint against her was made by a beaten Russian boxer. I can't be 100% on the validity of this, as obviously this is the age of misinformation, but it seems to check out.

Cheeky considering some of horrific decisions favouring Russian fighters back in 2016. Yeah, I know, there's so much conflicting information floating around out there on this.