[Beso]

Originally Posted by Conzors

Jesus

Turning in his grave as we speak.

[Vanessa]

He's my favourite. Just an all round nice guy. Very understanding and didn't hold a grudge.
Glad him and Caroline got to talk things through.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Actually, he said he wasn't in there on a crusade to talk about trans constantly. And he's talked of little else.

I don't dislike him. I wish him well in his life but I won't lie to please him.

He hasn’t asked you to. And chances are, will never ask you to. You’re unlikely to cross paths with any trans people in your lifetime.

They want to live their lives in peace.

[Molly biggles]

Originally Posted by Conzors

And I hope you do see Zelah as a bloke… because he is? Lol

That’s like saying under Tate as a bloke. You haven’t known them as anything else.

No he's not. He has the right to want to be called a he and identify as what he wants but he will never be a biological bloke

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Livia

The X and Y chromosomes dictate it. He's a trans man, you can't ask people to pretend he's a biological man to make him feel better.

Nobody is asking him to pretend he’s a biological man. But he’s a man, since when does anyone care about the biology of a human? Saying ‘I see Zelah as a man’ is a ridic thing to say as who wouldn’t see him as a man any less so that Tate or Marcus?

This is the argument. Nobody is doubting biology, but what people are doubting is the fact he is a man when if he didn’t tell anyone he was trans, it’s most likely nobody would know and you and I wouldn’t be having this convo cos that’s how irrelevant it is to someone’s gender?

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Molly biggles

No he's not. He has the right to want to be called a he and identify as what he wants but he will never be a biological bloke

Who cares about Biology! If you didn’t know he was born a woman would you care? No! So why do you care now that you know? Ridiculous!!

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Beso

Turning in his grave as we speak.

Yes at your comments

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Conzors

Nobody is asking him to pretend he’s a biological man. But he’s a man, since when does anyone care about the biology of a human? Saying ‘I see Zelah as a man’ is a ridic thing to say as who wouldn’t see him as a man any less so that Tate or Marcus?

This is the argument. Nobody is doubting biology, but what people are doubting is the fact he is a man when if he didn’t tell anyone he was trans, it’s most likely nobody would know and you and I wouldn’t be having this convo cos that’s how irrelevant it is to someone’s gender?

No one can change sex, that's a fact. It's biology over ideology. I hope he lives his life and is happy. I'm happy to refer to him as "he". But you can't make me believe he's actually changed sex. He hasn't. Biologically, he will always be a woman.

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Livia

No one can change sex, that's a fact. It's biology over ideology. I hope he lives his life and is happy. I'm happy to refer to him as "he". But you can't make me believe he's actually changed sex. He hasn't. Biologically, he will always be a woman.

He has changed gender.
And why does it matter to you? Why are you so pressed by this that you will always think of his biology when thinking about him? Do you think about non-trans peoples biologies?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Conzors

He has changed gender.
And why does it matter to you? Why are you so pressed by this that you will always think of his biology when thinking about him? Do you think about non-trans peoples biologies?

It doesn't matter to me and had he not put himself into Big Brother and talked endlessly about being trans, I would have nothing to say about him at all. This is a forum for opinions about Big Brother and my opinion on this housemate is that he's a trans man. Which means he's biologically female.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Livia

No one can change sex, that's a fact. It's biology over ideology. I hope he lives his life and is happy. I'm happy to refer to him as "he". But you can't make me believe he's actually changed sex. He hasn't. Biologically, he will always be a woman.

We must all process things differently ..

I know Zelah’s back ( and front) story but I can only see him as a guy because he looks , sounds and behaves so much like a guy .

Maybe it’s my poor imagination … I just see what I see ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Livia

It doesn't matter to me and had he not put himself into Big Brother and talked endlessly about being trans, I would have nothing to say about him at all. This is a forum for opinions about Big Brother and my opinion on this housemate is that he's a trans man. Which means he's biologically female.

Your opinion on this house is correct, he is a trans man. That’s not an opinion that’s a fact - however why is this your thing you always go back to - his gender? Do you think about the non trans people’s gender or do you see other things and not even think about the gender?

I’m not trying to goad you here, I’m trying to make people’s that biological sex is irrelevant, especially when someone is trans and is passing as a man anyway

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Conzors

Your opinion on this house is correct, he is a trans man. That’s not an opinion that’s a fact - however why is this your thing you always go back to - his gender? Do you think about the non trans people’s gender or do you see other things and not even think about the gender?

I’m not trying to goad you here, I’m trying to make people’s that biological sex is irrelevant, especially when someone is trans and is passing as a man anyway

It sounds like you're goading me, I think I've been very clear. People's sex is maybe more important to me as a woman, we're expected by some to accept men, usually complete with male genitals, into women only spaces, rape crisis centres, prisons, women's sport... I can't accept it, men have been excluded from those spaces for a reason. A line has to be drawn and my line is this: live your life, love who you love, marry them, be happy, but don't ask me to believe you've changed sex.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Conzors

Yes at your comments

Oh shut up..the world is fed up with your views.

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Livia

It sounds like you're goading me, I think I've been very clear. People's sex is maybe more important to me as a woman, we're expected by some to accept men, usually complete with male genitals, into women only spaces, rape crisis centres, prisons, women's sport... I can't accept it, men have been excluded from those spaces for a reason. A line has to be drawn and my line is this: live your life, love who you love, marry them, be happy, but don't ask me to believe you've changed sex.

The majority of people born male who transition into females who want to enter female only spaces want and need protection too. I understand the concerns about men who ‘pretend’ to be woman just to enter these spaces to make women feel uncomfortable - that’s is not acceptable, but it’s also not the majority of trans men and are a very much a small percentage.

Sorry for coming across as goading - I just feel so passionate about this and find it hard not to say something

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Beso

Oh shut up..the world is fed up with your views.

Come on now, no need to be rude this is a forum please debate with respect, thank you

[StephenPullen]

When the only interesting thing about you and your whole character and what you talk about is that you are trans, you are a one note person. Everyone feels uncomfortable and has to overthink their speech and what they say. It's just exhausting.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Conzors

The majority of people born male who transition into females who want to enter female only spaces want and need protection too. I understand the concerns about men who ‘pretend’ to be woman just to enter these spaces to make women feel uncomfortable - that’s is not acceptable, but it’s also not the majority of trans men and are a very much a small percentage.

Sorry for coming across as goading - I just feel so passionate about this and find it hard not to say something

Then they need to create their own spaces, transwomens safety does not trump womens and we are not human shields, if you allow some biologically male people into women's spaces how do you draw the line? Why is it OK to have women as collateral damage?

As a woman I also feel passionate about this, it's women's rights, you as a man, are passionate about giving away here. Women had to fight for the right to have these spaces, they were necessary for biological differences, based on sex not gender or identity.

I'm all for protecting transpeople but not at the expense of womens or girls safety and dignity.

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Then they need to create their own spaces, transwomens safety does not trump womens and we are not human shields, if you allow some biologically male people into women's spaces how do you draw the line? Why is it OK to have women as collateral damage?

As a woman I also feel passionate about this, it's women's rights, you as a man, are passionate about giving away here. Women had to fight for the right to have these spaces, they were necessary for biological differences, based on sex not gender or identity.

I'm all for protecting transpeople but not at the expense of womens or girls safety and dignity.

It’s a very sensitive issue and obviously I cannot understand what it’s like from a women’s perspective and you and Livia have a very valid point but most trans people do not want to make biological women feel unsafe, they too want safe space.

Trans people already have safe spaces within the gay community (gay pubs, social groups etc) but I can only relate it to (and I know it’s not the same at all) growing up gay and wanting to feel comfortable in the environment I am in without people commenting or making ‘jokes’ or asking a lot of inappropriate questions about why im gay etc but i think the issue here is people seeing them as their biological sex and then treating them as such when thats not right.

Most trans people will not be predators within a female only or a male only space especially the ones that are passing as their desired gender.

I don’t think I can comment on male to female transitions and from a women’s perspective but making trans only spaces is not the answer as they should feel safe anywhere.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Conzors

The majority of people born male who transition into females who want to enter female only spaces want and need protection too. I understand the concerns about men who ‘pretend’ to be woman just to enter these spaces to make women feel uncomfortable - that’s is not acceptable, but it’s also not the majority of trans men and are a very much a small percentage.

Sorry for coming across as goading - I just feel so passionate about this and find it hard not to say something

Maybe trans women who want protection too should do what biological women have done for years and years, campaign for their own spaces, fight for them, speak up for them, not expect to piggy back onto women who up until a few years ago, were dictated to by men in every stage of their lives. Having biological men now insist they have access to hard fought-for spaces and services seems frighteningly dictatorial. It is probably a small percentage but how do we tell which ones are the predators? I personally think self identification has been a disaster for women. And in reality, it's not trans men who are the problem. But I say again, we only get so many trips round the sun and I hope everyone can find some happiness and live their lives the way they choose.

I see you're passionate about this. I am also passionate about women's rights, as was my mother and those women before her. But thank you for letting me have my say in a resaonable way without either of us hurling insults. It's appreciated.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Conzors

It’s a very sensitive issue and obviously I cannot understand what it’s like from a women’s perspective and you and Livia have a very valid point but most trans people do not want to make biological women feel unsafe, they too want safe space.

Trans people already have safe spaces within the gay community (gay pubs, social groups etc) but I can only relate it to (and I know it’s not the same at all) growing up gay and wanting to feel comfortable in the environment I am in without people commenting or making ‘jokes’ or asking a lot of inappropriate questions about why im gay etc but i think the issue here is people seeing them as their biological sex and then treating them as such when thats not right.

Most trans people will not be predators within a female only or a male only space especially the ones that are passing as their desired gender.

I don’t think I can comment on male to female transitions and from a women’s perspective but making trans only spaces is not the answer as they should feel safe anywhere.

I'm just going to pick you up on this point as the rest of your post I agree with you and I understand why you, as a gay man, would relate to the discriminatory aspect of trans people. What do you mean by this, can you expand a bit?

[Beso]

Without wanting to sound stupid, just what exactly would a trans man pee out off? Seemingly Zelah didn't have a penis.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Beso

Without wanting to sound stupid, just what exactly would a trans man pee out off? Seemingly Zelah didn't have a penis.

Zelah will still have female parts I assume

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Zelah will still have female parts I assume

This is what I don't understand, that was Carolines first question....she asked...if you had a c...k what would you do with it, would you swing it around.... I gasped, I thought that was worse than saying he was a girl yet BB never referred to it when they read back the transcript, at least I dont think they did

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm just going to pick you up on this point as the rest of your post I agree with you and I understand why you, as a gay man, would relate to the discriminatory aspect of trans people. What do you mean by this, can you expand a bit?

Like if trans people felt safe and accepted in public spaces there wouldn’t be this dire need for trans only spaces or trans women to be in biological women’s spaces because they could use the bathroom of the sex they were assigned at birth without fear of being assaulted etc

I agree with you in the sense that men who say they are women but are not making any effort to pass as a woman or live like a woman shouldn’t be allowed in female only spaces because then it’s very high risk, but the people who are living as a woman, can pass as a woman are less of a threat and therefore could use women’s only spaces as it would be harder to know.

Have I made sense there? Again hard for me to comment as a man