[Livia]

Originally Posted by Conzors

Nobody is asking him to pretend he’s a biological man. But he’s a man, since when does anyone care about the biology of a human? Saying ‘I see Zelah as a man’ is a ridic thing to say as who wouldn’t see him as a man any less so that Tate or Marcus?

This is the argument. Nobody is doubting biology, but what people are doubting is the fact he is a man when if he didn’t tell anyone he was trans, it’s most likely nobody would know and you and I wouldn’t be having this convo cos that’s how irrelevant it is to someone’s gender?

No one can change sex, that's a fact. It's biology over ideology. I hope he lives his life and is happy. I'm happy to refer to him as "he". But you can't make me believe he's actually changed sex. He hasn't. Biologically, he will always be a woman.

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Livia

No one can change sex, that's a fact. It's biology over ideology. I hope he lives his life and is happy. I'm happy to refer to him as "he". But you can't make me believe he's actually changed sex. He hasn't. Biologically, he will always be a woman.

He has changed gender.
And why does it matter to you? Why are you so pressed by this that you will always think of his biology when thinking about him? Do you think about non-trans peoples biologies?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Conzors

He has changed gender.
And why does it matter to you? Why are you so pressed by this that you will always think of his biology when thinking about him? Do you think about non-trans peoples biologies?

It doesn't matter to me and had he not put himself into Big Brother and talked endlessly about being trans, I would have nothing to say about him at all. This is a forum for opinions about Big Brother and my opinion on this housemate is that he's a trans man. Which means he's biologically female.

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Livia

It doesn't matter to me and had he not put himself into Big Brother and talked endlessly about being trans, I would have nothing to say about him at all. This is a forum for opinions about Big Brother and my opinion on this housemate is that he's a trans man. Which means he's biologically female.

Your opinion on this house is correct, he is a trans man. That’s not an opinion that’s a fact - however why is this your thing you always go back to - his gender? Do you think about the non trans people’s gender or do you see other things and not even think about the gender?

I’m not trying to goad you here, I’m trying to make people’s that biological sex is irrelevant, especially when someone is trans and is passing as a man anyway

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Conzors

Your opinion on this house is correct, he is a trans man. That’s not an opinion that’s a fact - however why is this your thing you always go back to - his gender? Do you think about the non trans people’s gender or do you see other things and not even think about the gender?

I’m not trying to goad you here, I’m trying to make people’s that biological sex is irrelevant, especially when someone is trans and is passing as a man anyway

It sounds like you're goading me, I think I've been very clear. People's sex is maybe more important to me as a woman, we're expected by some to accept men, usually complete with male genitals, into women only spaces, rape crisis centres, prisons, women's sport... I can't accept it, men have been excluded from those spaces for a reason. A line has to be drawn and my line is this: live your life, love who you love, marry them, be happy, but don't ask me to believe you've changed sex.

[Conzors]

Originally Posted by Livia

It sounds like you're goading me, I think I've been very clear. People's sex is maybe more important to me as a woman, we're expected by some to accept men, usually complete with male genitals, into women only spaces, rape crisis centres, prisons, women's sport... I can't accept it, men have been excluded from those spaces for a reason. A line has to be drawn and my line is this: live your life, love who you love, marry them, be happy, but don't ask me to believe you've changed sex.

The majority of people born male who transition into females who want to enter female only spaces want and need protection too. I understand the concerns about men who ‘pretend’ to be woman just to enter these spaces to make women feel uncomfortable - that’s is not acceptable, but it’s also not the majority of trans men and are a very much a small percentage.

Sorry for coming across as goading - I just feel so passionate about this and find it hard not to say something

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Conzors

The majority of people born male who transition into females who want to enter female only spaces want and need protection too. I understand the concerns about men who ‘pretend’ to be woman just to enter these spaces to make women feel uncomfortable - that’s is not acceptable, but it’s also not the majority of trans men and are a very much a small percentage.

Sorry for coming across as goading - I just feel so passionate about this and find it hard not to say something

Then they need to create their own spaces, transwomens safety does not trump womens and we are not human shields, if you allow some biologically male people into women's spaces how do you draw the line? Why is it OK to have women as collateral damage?

As a woman I also feel passionate about this, it's women's rights, you as a man, are passionate about giving away here. Women had to fight for the right to have these spaces, they were necessary for biological differences, based on sex not gender or identity.

I'm all for protecting transpeople but not at the expense of womens or girls safety and dignity.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Conzors

The majority of people born male who transition into females who want to enter female only spaces want and need protection too. I understand the concerns about men who ‘pretend’ to be woman just to enter these spaces to make women feel uncomfortable - that’s is not acceptable, but it’s also not the majority of trans men and are a very much a small percentage.

Sorry for coming across as goading - I just feel so passionate about this and find it hard not to say something

Maybe trans women who want protection too should do what biological women have done for years and years, campaign for their own spaces, fight for them, speak up for them, not expect to piggy back onto women who up until a few years ago, were dictated to by men in every stage of their lives. Having biological men now insist they have access to hard fought-for spaces and services seems frighteningly dictatorial. It is probably a small percentage but how do we tell which ones are the predators? I personally think self identification has been a disaster for women. And in reality, it's not trans men who are the problem. But I say again, we only get so many trips round the sun and I hope everyone can find some happiness and live their lives the way they choose.

I see you're passionate about this. I am also passionate about women's rights, as was my mother and those women before her. But thank you for letting me have my say in a resaonable way without either of us hurling insults. It's appreciated.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Livia

No one can change sex, that's a fact. It's biology over ideology. I hope he lives his life and is happy. I'm happy to refer to him as "he". But you can't make me believe he's actually changed sex. He hasn't. Biologically, he will always be a woman.

We must all process things differently ..

I know Zelah’s back ( and front) story but I can only see him as a guy because he looks , sounds and behaves so much like a guy .

Maybe it’s my poor imagination … I just see what I see ..


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