[Shasown]

Originally Posted by Niall

I understand what you are saying but I don't really think labelling it a secular religion is correct. Hardcore Communists think religion should be totally abolished.

Also, I don't think that politics is always influenced by religion. The increasingly secular attitudes of many world governments today shows that the state can remain totally secular and not use religion as a guideline for the laws they create. Some countries may choose to incorporate it though however like Islamic nations which you mentioned.

And the idea that Communism seeks to crush and oppress isn't what the theory of Communism is about at all. The ideal Communist state would have everyone on a equal levels for jobs, homes, facilities etc. People wouldn't be denied access to things just because they don't have enough money etc nor does it seek to repress diversity and difference either, the Soviet Union effectively legalised Homosexuality in the 1920s in the RSFR. Although Stalin did repress it again later on.

I'm not a Communist but I do understand the real vision of Communism and how it was meant to be.

While it is true the ideal communsit state wouldnt oppress, Angus wasnt talking about the ideal communist state. She was using Soviet Russia as an exemplar of the fact that certain leaders in history have whilst repudiating religion replaced it in peoples psyche with the state.

Lenin was an extremely shrewd manipulator, and adapted Marxist doctrine to suit what he believed was a stronger concept - marxist leninism if you like. Whilst he was extremely cynical about religion he understood it filled a need in man in general and so tinkered with formal and functional parallels between the state and religion.

In its organisation, its techniques for recruitment, its means of eliciting loyalty from its adherents Lenins party structure owes more to Bakunin than Marx. As you are no doubt are aware Bakunin believed revolution was not only a socio-political phenomenon but was ultimately theological and religious in character.

Stalin when he came to power having been partially trained as a priest and after studying under a spiritual teacher also recognised the strength of the religious impulse within people. He also knew how to activate and manipulate it.

Look at the way Stalin elevated Lenin after death to almost godhood, lying in state, national mourning, national holiday, embalming the body and the pyramid like tomb. Very incongruous with a rationalist secular system which declared itself atheistic and hostile to all forms of religion and the cult of 'personality'.

Take for example this text with response style chorus, its wasnt a parody of religious prayer it was designed to be a religious rite in itself:

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined on us to hold high and keep pure the great calling of Member of the Party
Response - We Vow to thee. Comrade Lenin that we will honourably fulfill thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined us to guard the unity of the Party
Response - We vow to thee Comarade lenin that we will honourably fulfill this thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined to us to guard and strengthen the dictatorship of the Proletariat..

ETC ETC.

Admission into the Communist Party in the late 20' and the 30's was also ritualistic, and very religious in nature. The rite of ceremony, as well as the iconic red flag handed over.

A better example would have been of Germany during the rise of National Socialism. The concept behind the party appealed to the religious impulse of the German people, the rituals, parades stirring music speeches, mass hysteria etc. A lot of the rituals based and timed around pre christian festivals and rites.

It was the religious fervour of a people who had lost faith in God, following the horrors of the First World War and had been steered to the magical properties of the Germanic culture etc. If you get the chance read the works of Hermann Rauschning (one of Hitler's earlier confidantes and deputies) on Hitlers cynical manipulation.

Yep thats right I claim todays first Godwin as well

Incidentally most countries use laws based on common law which in medieval times was laid down by the local religious bodies, in the UK, christian(Catholic then later Protestant churches having great input). Christan principles based on earlier Judaic and even earlier prnciples formed from religions. (eg Zoroastrianism)

Other countries simply adapt from their colonial rulers original laws. So you dont really have a truly secular set of laws anywhere in Europe, the Americas, Africa, even Asian countries used either Christian or Buddhist principals to set initial legislation.