[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

Frankly, I don't think there's very much they can do that will win them the next election because they've ****ed up so monumentally. They've not only angered their opponents, they've upset and alienated their core voters. They're toast, I'm afraid. Only Boris can save them now...

Boris who? Becker? Surely not Johnson?

The thought of him getting more power chills my blood.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Livia

Frankly, I don't think there's very much they can do that will win them the next election because they've ****ed up so monumentally. They've not only angered their opponents, they've upset and alienated their core voters. They're toast, I'm afraid. Only Boris can save them now...

BIB .....

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Frankly, I don't think there's very much they can do that will win them the next election because they've ****ed up so monumentally. They've not only angered their opponents, they've upset and alienated their core voters. They're toast, I'm afraid. Only Boris can save them now...

Hi Livia,Very interesting points there. as ever.
Do you think Boris would consider doing anything or be persuaded to before the next election as to running for the leadership.

He isn't an MP so would need to grab the next available by election wouldn't he.
Can you see that happening or do you think he will wait for it to come about after the 2015 general election rather than before it.

[GiRTh]

Where is all this Boris love coming from? The mans a buffoon.

[Kizzy]

An evil buffoon... He is like sideshow bob!

[Omah]

Nick Robinson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22604185

He was young. He was handsome. He said what they wanted to hear.

It was time, he told them, to show they cared, to move with the times. They needn't worry, though, because he shared their core beliefs.

David Cameron had reassured his party that he was a staunch believer in marriage but the coalition is proposing to promote marriages which many Tory activists do not regard as marriages at all - between two men or two women and not a man and a woman.

The proposal was not in the Tory manifesto and it was not in the coalition agreement. Many Tories suspect that it was unveiled to show the prime minister in a Clause Four style challenge to his own grassroots - or, as someone may or may not have said, the "swivel-eyed loons."

The prime minister convinced his party that he was a sceptic about another relationship - Britain's membership of the EU but many do not understand why he won't now take advantage of the crisis in the Euro-zone to sue for divorce.

And now he's being challenged by a man with a twinkle in his eye, a pint in his hand who says the things many Tories would dearly love to say - things that Nigel will say but David never would.

The match between Mr Cameron and the Conservative Party was never based on love or passion. It was a cold blooded political calculation. It's now in real trouble.

Taxi for Cameron .....

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Omah

Taxi for Cameron .....

I think it would do him a lot of good to take the bus.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think it would do him a lot of good to take the bus.

Or get back on his bike .....

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Omah

Or get back on his bike .....

Or use a Boris Bike...!!!!

[GiRTh]

I don't like the idea of the Tories moving to the right, but if they do at least it'll keep them out of office for the foreseeable future.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I don't like the idea of the Tories moving to the right, but if they do at least it'll keep them out of office for the foreseeable future.

Not sure I agree, considering the popularity of UKIP right now. I think the further right they go, the more some people will like it. And it is, sadly, those people who are likely to get off their backsides and vote.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not sure I agree, considering the popularity of UKIP right now. I think the further right they go, the more some people will like it. And it is, sadly, those people who are likely to get off their backsides and vote.

I kind of agree. UKIP and the conservative remind me of the relationship between the republican and the Tea party in USA. They say a lot that people want to hear but ultimately they cant be taken seriously. I don't think there are enough like minded people in this country to give UKIP a serious shot at power. They'll cause a few upsets but will not make much of a dent IMO.

[Kizzy]

To me this is a death knell for the conservatives, they have proven themselves to be self serving dinosaurs.
The party is in total disarray and the public will soon see that UKIP are in no way a competant party on any issue.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I kind of agree. UKIP and the conservative remind me of the relationship between the republican and the Tea party in USA. They say a lot that people want to hear but ultimately they cant be taken seriously. I don't think there are enough like minded people in this country to give UKIP a serious shot at power. They'll cause a few upsets but will not make much of a dent IMO.

That's a good comparison, I can see that.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Tory Old Guard are now turning to UKIP. I know this because they're taking the time to get in touch, cancel their membership and tell us why, and all these letters and emails are filtering through to backbenchers... which is why they're standing up to Cameron. Unfortunately, by the time most people realise that UKIP have no real policies, it'll be too late. I mean, they were voted in to countless county seats on the strength of European issues. They're making the right noises and people are being led along. Their real test of power is going to be next year's European elections. It'll be make or break for the Tories, I reckon... and at the moment it's looking more break than make.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

To me this is a death knell for the conservatives, they have proven themselves to be self serving dinosaurs.
The party is in total disarray and the public will soon see that UKIP are in no way a competant party on any issue.

I agree the Tories have shown they do not listen or care what the Electorate say and the swing to UKIP clearly shows this. Whilst I do not think UKIP is able to become a party of Govt at the moment, the real point to all of this is that people are desparate for change from the current Political stalemate. They cry out for a real voice and for that voice to be acted upon on especially with the larger issues like Europe or Immigration etc..

UKIP I think is a way to show to the other parties that they cannot keep taking people's votes for granted. I think major changes are coming to the British Political scene, and not before time...!!!

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's a good comparison, I can see that.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Tory Old Guard are now turning to UKIP. I know this because they're taking the time to get in touch, cancel their membership and tell us why, and all these letters and emails are filtering through to backbenchers... which is why they're standing up to Cameron. Unfortunately, by the time most people realise that UKIP have no real policies, it'll be too late. I mean, they were voted in to countless county seats on the strength of European issues. They're making the right noises and people are being led along. Their real test of power is going to be next year's European elections. It'll be make or break for the Tories, I reckon... and at the moment it's looking more break than make.

I didn't realise old skool Tories were taking UKIP so seriously. I wonder if these guys actually see UKIP in power or is it a reaction to Camerons lightweight leadership.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I agree the Tories have shown they do not listen or care what the Electorate say and the swing to UKIP clearly shows this. Whilst I do not think UKIP is able to become a party of Govt at the moment, the real point to all of this is that people are desparate for change from the current Political stalemate. They cry out for a real voice and for that voice to be acted upon on especially with the larger issues like Europe or Immigration etc..

UKIP I think is a way to show to the other parties that they cannot keep taking people's votes for granted. I think major changes are coming to the British Political scene, and not before time...!!!

Rather than just hysterically screaming out why don't they explain what being out will mean in practical terms to the man on the street?
What the public want is a government that acts on it's manifesto, it's not rocket science.
The social discord is due to people taking our votes, getting into power and doing the polar opposite to their campaign promises.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I didn't realise old skool Tories were taking UKIP so seriously. I wonder if these guys actually see UKIP in power or is it a reaction to Camerons lightweight leadership.

I think it's a mixture of the two things. Tory members were already muttering when the party decided it was going to use gay marriage as a smokescreen for its austerity measures when the issue of gay marriage wasn't even in the manifesto. Sure enough, the people they alienated most were the huntin' fishin' shootin' twin-set-and-pearls wearing blue-rinse membership. They're the people that keep the party afloat not just with votes but with donations and fundraising. Then they alienated them further by hitting pensions. The soft-peddling and sometime/maybe attitude to a European refrendum played into UKIP's hands. I'm not sure whether the government truly understand how many times they've shot themselves in the foot. And this week's comment about party activists being "swivel-eyed loons" came from somewhere. You can't talk about your members like that even if you think it, or they stop giving you money and you end up out of a job. If the government can't see how badly they've ****ed up, then frankly they shouldn't be running the country. Sadly, I don't see any kind of viable alternative.

[Kizzy]

Basically that means all the thatcherites she helped make rich and pour money into the tory coffers as a kickback are cross, they are just not doing as they were paid to do!

[Livia]

Okay... if that's your simplistic take on what I just said.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think it's a mixture of the two things. Tory members were already muttering when the party decided it was going to use gay marriage as a smokescreen for its austerity measures when the issue of gay marriage wasn't even in the manifesto. Sure enough, the people they alienated most were the huntin' fishin' shootin' twin-set-and-pearls wearing blue-rinse membership. They're the people that keep the party afloat not just with votes but with donations and fundraising. Then they alienated them further by hitting pensions. The soft-peddling and sometime/maybe attitude to a European refrendum played into UKIP's hands. I'm not sure whether the government truly understand how many times they've shot themselves in the foot. And this week's comment about party activists being "swivel-eyed loons" came from somewhere. You can't talk about your members like that even if you think it, or they stop giving you money and you end up out of a job. If the government can't see how badly they've ****ed up, then frankly they shouldn't be running the country. Sadly, I don't see any kind of viable alternative.

Thanks for that. Good to have a close view of whats going on.

Do these Tories actually see UKIP as an alternative? I shudder at the thought of people actually taking Farage seriously. I think its a very sorry state of affairs when a privileged ex banker like Farage is considered the voice of the people.

What about Labour? Do you think they have fallen so far that they're no longer the main opposition or do you think they can shine under these circumstances?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Okay... if that's your simplistic take on what I just said.

Sometimes less is more liv.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Thanks for that. Good to have a close view of whats going on.

Do these Tories actually see UKIP as an alternative? I shudder at the thought of people actually taking Farage seriously. I think its a very sorry state of affairs when a privileged ex banker like Farage is considered the voice of the people.

What about Labour? Do you think they have fallen so far that they're no longer the main opposition or do you think they can shine under these circumstances?

I have far more time for MEPs than I do for MPs, generally. People assume they're all pro-Europe when in most cases, the reverse is true. And Farage has no respect amongst MEPs of all parties. He doesn't turn up to do his job, he misses votes... and yet he is supposed to be there representing the people who voted for him. He paints himself as a non-nonsense realist when in fact he's just rude. I think right now he's appealing to the disenfranchised right and they're the ones mostly voting for him because he knows eactly what they want to hear. But his policies are so sketchy it's hard to know what he's truly offering. He talks about a withdrawal from Europe but has no strategy for it, no plan, no idea how he'll fund it. And when it comes to domestic policies, all he has is a set of bullet points. If UKIP do well in the general election I think we're all doomed. They'll go through cash faster than Labour did.

Labour did a lot of damage when they were in. They took us to war on a lie, they sold our gold reserve at a record low price, the top rate of income tax was lower under them than is is under the Tories... there's a whole list of things they did that their supporters ought to remember, and one of the reasons the global recession hit us so hard is that Labour mishandled the economy. Having said that, people have notoriously short memories when it comes to governments, which is why we've had the Labour/Tory/Labour/Tory thing for so many years. In my opinion, the Conservatives' biggest weapon again Labour is actually Ed Miliband. He's almost as unpopular as Cameron.

[Kizzy]

I don't understand why we are debating the history of the last 50yrs, the economy was on the floor as there were no jobs or infrastructure remember?
And we went to war on the advice of a certain baroness.
Farage will fizzle out, Milliband needs to polish his A game and come out fighting, as an intellectual he is biding his time like a chess player.
Wait for them all to trip over themselves then... checkmate.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Livia

I have far more time for MEPs than I do for MPs, generally. People assume they're all pro-Europe when in most cases, the reverse is true. And Farage has no respect amongst MEPs of all parties. He doesn't turn up to do his job, he misses votes... and yet he is supposed to be there representing the people who voted for him. He paints himself as a non-nonsense realist when in fact he's just rude. I think right now he's appealing to the disenfranchised right and they're the ones mostly voting for him because he knows eactly what they want to hear. But his policies are so sketchy it's hard to know what he's truly offering. He talks about a withdrawal from Europe but has no strategy for it, no plan, no idea how he'll fund it. And when it comes to domestic policies, all he has is a set of bullet points. If UKIP do well in the general election I think we're all doomed. They'll go through cash faster than Labour did.

Labour did a lot of damage when they were in. They took us to war on a lie, they sold our gold reserve at a record low price, the top rate of income tax was lower under them than is is under the Tories... there's a whole list of things they did that their supporters ought to remember, and one of the reasons the global recession hit us so hard is that Labour mishandled the economy. Having said that, people have notoriously short memories when it comes to governments, which is why we've had the Labour/Tory/Labour/Tory thing for so many years. In my opinion, the Conservatives' biggest weapon again Labour is actually Ed Miliband. He's almost as unpopular as Cameron.

We are in agreement, Farage is a complete bluffer. He'll be found out when he has to explain his non existent economic policies. I cant wait to hear his foreign policies too. I agree that he knows what to say to the Tory core but I hope they realise he doesn't have a clue.