[lostalex]

Is the reverse also true though Jesus? Sometimes does religion make evil people do good things?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Is the reverse also true though Jesus? Sometimes does religion make evil people do good things?

I think it is Lostalex and also religion is the smokescreen for certain individuals and organisations to follow their own agendas thereby using religion.
The sort of acts,like last weeks, are totally against generally the real teachings of religions.

Originally Posted by lostalex

Is the reverse also true though Jesus? Sometimes does religion make evil people do good things?

Such as?

Are deeds really genuinely good if they believe they're doing it because they're being watched from the skies, or they will be rewarded in the afterlife?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Such as?

Are deeds really genuinely good if they believe they're doing it because they're being watched from the skies, or they will be rewarded in the afterlife?

I suppose it depends. Are you more interested in motives or results?

There's no doubt that plenty of evil people give money to their church charities or volunteer because they are told to by their religion.

Originally Posted by lostalex

I suppose it depends. Are you more interested in motives or results?

A good result, with an ulterior motive isn't a good act in my book. It's a calculated act.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

A good result, with an ulterior motive isn't a good act in my book. It's a calculated act.

I don't think you really believe that. I think you know that we are all selfish animals in the end. And no matter the motivations, any work of good, even if it's done by someone very evil, is still 1 more work of good in the world. which is a good thing.

Hitler created a brilliant roadway system you know. The trains were always on time under Mussolini.

Albert Einstein was a horrible misogynist. He believed it his wife's duty to serve him.

Originally Posted by lostalex

I don't think you really believe that. I think you know that we are all selfish animals in the end. And no matter the motivations, any work of good, even if it's done by someone very evil, is still 1 more work of good in the world. which is a good thing.

Hitler created a brilliant roadway system you know. The trains were always on time under Mussolini.

Good results are different to good acts. Hitler didn't build the road system to help others, he built it to enable better services for him and his military, and the Mussolini train thing I was always lead to believe was a myth.

medicine sans frontiers is an example of an organisation that does good deeds for no ulterior motive, and finishes with good results.

The quote was about good people doing bad things anyway, so this is veering a little bit away from where I intended to take it.

[MTVN]

Not to go horribly off topic but the Mussolini train thing is true apparently, labour was actually very organised and disciplined under fascism in some sectors because the fascist workers syndicates basically had a monopoly on negotiations and labour disputes over the socialist or catholic unions

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Good results are different to good acts. Hitler didn't build the road system to help others, he built it to enable better services for him and his military, and the Mussolini train thing I was always lead to believe was a myth.

medicine sans frontiers is an example of an organisation that does good deeds for no ulterior motive, and finishes with good results.

The quote was about good people doing bad things anyway, so this is veering a little bit away from where my I intended to take it.

It's called Doctors Without Borders. stop capitulating to the french.

The point is, i'm sure there are plenty of doctors that are also pedophiles and wife beaters and rude assholes that are just horrible human beings. but they do good.

Does it matter why they do good? does it matter, if they do good just to get rich? or just to please their imaginary god? if they do it just out of their own thrill seeking? does it matter? Is their work any less good?

Perhaps some doctors just enjoy cutting into human flesh. does that make their life saving surgery any less good?

If we judged everything by motivation, what would survive that standard?

Originally Posted by MTVN

Not to go horribly off topic but the Mussolini train thing is true apparently, labour was actually very organised and disciplined under fascism in some sectors because the fascist workers syndicates basically had a monopoly on negotiations and labour disputes over the socialist or catholic unions

Cheers for adding to, and clearing that up, Matt.

Originally Posted by lostalex

It's called Doctors Without Borders. stop capitulating to the french.

The point is, i'm sure there are plenty of doctors that are also pedophiles and wife beaters and rude assholes that are just horrible human beings. but they do good.

Does it matter why they do good? does it matter, if they do good just to get rich? or just to please their imaginary god? if they do it just out of their own thrill seeking? does it matter? Is their work any less good?

Perhaps some doctors just enjoy cutting into human flesh. does that make their life saving surgery any less good?

If we judged everything by motivation, what would survive that standard?

Ju suis tres desole mon ami.

This has been turned completely around from the quote I posted, which was about what it takes for good people to do bad things.

[lostalex]

well yea, it was turned around, cause i responded to your post about good people doing evil things because of religion, and i responded that also, sometimes evil people do good things because of religion. I was referring to people who get involved with a church and get involved with charity and do good things. I know there are plenty of example of gang members who are reformed in prison, and come out and do great things through their church, especially with trying to keep kids off the streets.

You know I'm an atheist, so I'm not defending the ideology of religion, I'm just saying, that sometimes religion helps evil people do good things, in the same way that sometimes religion makes good people do evil things.

I'm also a former addict, and i know a lot of people that have become religious through the 12 step program, so I've seen that religion does give oppurtunities for "evil" people to do good things.

I don't think they need religion to do good things, i'm just saying that religion does encourage and facilitate some evil people to do good things.

Originally Posted by lostalex

well yea, it was turned around, cause i responded to your post about good people doing evil things because of religion, and i responded that also, sometimes evil people do good things because of religion. I was referring to people who get involved with a church and get involved with charity and do good things. I know there are plenty of example of gang members who are reformed in prison, and come out and do great things through their church, especially with trying to keep kids off the streets.

You know I'm an atheist, so I'm not defending the ideology of religion, I'm just saying, that sometimes religion helps evil people do good things, in the same way that sometimes religion makes good people do evil things.

I'm also a former addict, and i know a lot of people that have become religious through the 12 step program, so I've seen that religion does give oppurtunities for "evil" people to do good things.

I don't think they need religion to do good things, i'm just saying that religion does encourage and facilitate some evil people to do good things.

I accept your views, I just don't share them. I'm not sure how dealing with addiction could be classed as someone being evil. I would view that more as people replacing one addiction with another. However, I know nothing about the 12 step program and any of those peoples lives, so I'll concede I could be wrong about that.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

I accept your views, I just don't share them. I'm not sure how dealing with addiction could be classed as someone being evil. I would view that more as people replacing one addiction with another. However, I know nothing about the 12 step program and any of those peoples lives, so I'll concede I could be wrong about that.

Trust me, if you know addiction, you know that you do evil things. That's why making Amends is one of the steps. There's no such thing as an addict that doesn't need to make amends. The actions you take to support the disease are evil. No body ever supported a drug habit by doing good.

I don't even know what evil means, because i'm not religious, but i'd say selfish is the closest thing to "evil" in my understanding.

Hurting others to benefit yourself is what I think of as "evil".

Originally Posted by MTVN

Not to go horribly off topic but the Mussolini train thing is true apparently, labour was actually very organised and disciplined under fascism in some sectors because the fascist workers syndicates basically had a monopoly on negotiations and labour disputes over the socialist or catholic unions

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Cheers for adding to, and clearing that up, Matt.

Right, that bothered me, so I've looked at a few things and from what I can make out, the railway program that Mussolini claimed credit for, was actually started and nearly completed before he came to power. It was in a terrible state after WW1 so these repairs were very necessary. However, I can well believe that his government kept the unions in check - what kind of fascists are unable to deal with unions?

[MTVN]

Hmm well I don't know too much about the railway program or the state of the railways themselves, but from when I was studying it last term I just remembered a quote from a historian who said the fascists were able to get the trains to run on time thanks to the workers syndicates, the book I remembered it from is all online actually and this was the passage I was remembering:

The union, or syndicate, linked the old radical aspirations to the new reactionary reality; or rather, it showed that Fascism was not merely reaction. And it worked, or seemed to. It is literally true, in 1920-21, that the Fascists made the trains run on time, indeed run at all: a remarkable high proportion of the early provincial leaders, including Farinacci himself, were station masters or other railway officials

Page 261 here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=L...page&q&f=false

But yeah that was before Mussolini actually came to power when the old regime was collapsing along with most of Italy's key services, so he had little do it and was just due to regional fascist leaders organising labour more efficiently through the syndicates

So anyway you're right I was a little off with that claim and I guess that's not really what most people mean when they joke about how Mussolini got the trains running on time, but that was what I had been thinking of

No worries, thanks for taking the time to look at it and posting again on the subject.

[bbfan1991]

EDL protesting at Downing Street and showing how vile, thick and illiterate they are.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by bbfan1991

EDL protesting at Downing Street and showing how vile, thick and illiterate they are.

That cannot be real. "sport are troops"

Surely they are being ironic.

[arista]

Originally Posted by bbfan1991

EDL protesting at Downing Street and showing how vile, thick and illiterate they are.

Yes but enough
to get on O'Reilly on FoxNewsHD

[arista]

On ITV1 London News, just now
one Lady said

"Extreme Muslims who come into our country
but they won't obey the Law of the Land, they are saying if
the Law of the Land is not Islam - then we should burn in Hell!
If we go over to see you we obey your Cultures"


That good looking lady spoke utter sense.


also on ITVNews on now
a 50 year old man was arrested in London .


& a Exclusive from Nigeria

[lostalex]

There is ofcourse a double standard Arista.

Just like if a French couple comes to America and speaks french, if the American shop keeper says "speak American English!" then the shop keeper is a racist.

If an American couple goes to France and speaks american english, if the french shop keeper says "speak French!" then the Americans are arrogant assholes for not speaking french.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes but enough
to get on O'Reilly on FoxNewsHD

Good point arista, by broadcasting this stuff they are helping these fascists spread their hate.
Why do they give them airtime?.... Oh it's fox.

[King Gizzard]

Help the Heroes refuse to accept donations from the EDL..surely they'll get the message soon

[bbfan1991]