[Vicky.]

Ohh I get it. Your 'male' friend is a transman? So now, male and female mean nothing aswell as man and woman? So confusing.

I do get where you are coming from, but deliberately blurring sex/gender is not helpful in any discussion Also your friend sounds to be transsexual, not transgender. There is a huge difference.



Edit. Sorry if this post comes across as harsh, just read back and the tone is not how I intended at all but I am arguing with a friend who is trying to tell me that transgender people are actually born as the sex that they wish they were, science is wrong, males and females are no different in any way and that the dick can indeed be a female organ and we should accept that whilst declaring that lesbians should not reject a partner based on their biological sex but gay men can and should?! Bizarre argument thats riling me somewhat.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

You kind of lost me here?

The uni thought he was a boy because of his name but when they called him out they thought he was a girl and so apologized.

I see him as the person he wants me to see him as which is a man. I knew him when he was a miserable wretched female and believe me, she wasn't good company but he's happy now that he looks and feels like a man. His looks and his feelings about how he looks and how he's received were very important to him. Its about being accepted, not as a trans, not by his sympathisers but by society as a whole.

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah that's what I think too, is it being like the stereo types that go with each is? I don't think I'm the same as every other woman on the planet, I'm just a person trying to get on with s**t, I feel like me

Well, that's good for you, you feel normal and you feel like you. Trans people don't.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Well, that's good for you, you feel normal and you feel like you. Trans people don't.

By definition, Niamh not 'feeling like a woman' actually makes her trans...along with maybe 90% of the population if we are to take this sexed internal essence meaning of course...I can't imagine many (if any) 'feel like' their sex rather than just feel like themselves.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The uni thought he was a boy because of his name but when they called him out they thought he was a girl and so apologized.

I see him as the person he wants me to see him as which is a man. I knew him when he was a miserable wretched female and believe me, she wasn't good company but he's happy now that he looks and feels like a man. His looks and his feelings about how he looks and how he's received were very important to him. Its about being accepted, not as a trans, not by his sympathisers but by society as a whole.

Thank you for explaining.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Well, that's good for you, you feel normal and you feel like you. Trans people don't.

There's no need to have an attitude Chewy, I'm just trying to understand what feeling like a woman and not a man actually means besides the physical side and how you are treated because of the physical side

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

By definition, Niamh not 'feeling like a woman' actually makes her trans...along with maybe 90% of the population if we are to take this sexed internal essence meaning of course...I can't imagine many (if any) 'feel like' their sex rather than just feel like themselves.

That's just simplifying the problem down, trans people don't feel like they belong in their body, I'm pretty sure we all feel at home in our own bodies, even if we don't 'feel like a man/woman' we feel like ourselves.

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

There's no need to have an attitude Chewy, I'm just trying to understand what feeling like a woman and not a man actually means besides the physical side and how you are treated because of the physical side

Sorry Niamh, didn't mean to come across as like that

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Chewy

That's just simplifying the problem down, trans people don't feel like they belong in their body, I'm pretty sure we all feel at home in our own bodies, even if we don't 'feel like a man/woman' we feel like ourselves.

This is transphobic...according to a boatload of people. Most who 'identify' as transgender.

But, not feeling happy in your body does not mean you are the opposite sex. I am not happy in my body. I ALSO do not have this womanly essence. I cannot know if I feel like a man though, as I am not one. you cannot 'feel like' something you do not know...

What are your thoughts on trans-abled people and also trans-racial...out of interest?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Demolition...what is your definition of man/woman?

.

If we want to start comparing grey matter, hemispheres and the male versus female hippocampus then we can conclude some radical differences between male and female but those studies are rather complex so lets not! What about psychological traits between the sexes though.... Just a small example is, women are much better at emotional interpretation than men and men tend to be better at reasoning than women. Males process perception differently to women; whilst females are more likely to listen to their intuition without any conscious or rational process, men are more likely to rationalize. Women cope with stress far differently than men do and a woman’s thought process tends to become impaired when under stress where as a male’s thought process becomes more enhanced and so it goes on and on and on.

There are some very marked differences between men and women. Some of that comes from the lobes of the brain (something trans people can't change) and other traits come from our abundance of different hormones.

Lets look at a hermaphrodite (a person born with both 46-XY and 46-XX chromosomes). Should he/she? tell others that he/she a hermaphrodite? keep in mind that a lot of hermaphrodites don't have surgery.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

If we want to start comparing grey matter, hemispheres and the male versus female hippocampus then we can conclude some radical differences between male and female but those studies are rather complex so lets not! What about psychological traits between the sexes though.... Just a small example is, women are much better at emotional interpretation than men and men tend to be better at reasoning than women. Men and females process perception differently to women; whilst females are more likely to listen to their intuition without any conscious or rational process, men are more likely to rationalize. Women cope with stress far differently than men do and a woman’s thought process tends to become impaired when under stress where as a male’s thought process becomes more enhanced and so it goes on and on and on.

There are some very marked differences between men and women. Some of that comes from the lobes of the brain (something trans people can't change) and other traits come from our abundance of different hormones.

Lets look at a hermaphrodite (a person born with both 46-XY and 46-XX chromosomes). Should he/she? tell others that he/she a hermaphrodite? keep in mind that a lot of hermaphrodites don't have surgery.

What is your definition of man/woman?

This has nothing to do with hermaphrodites. Nor brain differences (on which science is still out, I am afraid. No conclusive data either way for male or female brains)

[DemolitionRed]

I just edited what you quoted !!

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This is transphobic...according to a boatload of people. Most who 'identify' as transgender.

But, not feeling happy in your body does not mean you are the opposite sex. I am not happy in my body. I ALSO do not have this womanly essence. I cannot know if I feel like a man though, as I am not one. you cannot 'feel like' something you do not know...

What are your thoughts on trans-abled people and also trans-racial...out of interest?

It's transphobic only according to the Tumblr crowd, who make it their job to be offended by every term imaginable, they're the crowd who like to make it hard to discuss things like this.

I can't speak for transgendered people, but I've known one or two, and they just seem like they find it more comfortable living as a female than a male, they feel more at peace with themselves as it were.

Trans-abled and trans-racial seem like the sort of label that Tumblr comes up with, they make a mockery of real conditions that people have.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I just edited what you quoted !!

Still doesn't answer..

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Chewy

It's transphobic only according to the Tumblr crowd, who make it their job to be offended by every term imaginable, they're the crowd who like to make it hard to discuss things like this.

I can't speak for transgendered people, but I've known one or two, and they just seem like they find it more comfortable living as a female than a male, they feel more at peace with themselves as it were.

Trans-abled and trans-racial seem like the sort of label that Tumblr comes up with, they make a mockery of real conditions that people have.

No...they are a very very real thing.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/01/25...orking-bodies/

What is 'living as male/female'? Stereotypical stuff/appearance?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

What is your definition of man/woman?

This has nothing to do with hermaphrodites. Nor brain differences (on which science is still out, I am afraid. No conclusive data either way for male or female brains)

I disagree. Much to do with the brain is inconclusive and we probably won't know anything conclusively in our lifetime. Grey and white matter is not an easy thing to study.

Even when it comes to female sexuality, its only very recently that human biologists discovered the female clitoris is in fact a lot bigger than previously thought. We are discovering things all the time. In reality though, its a lot more complicated than just our sexual genitalia

[Withano]

Weird question Vicky, but if you woke up with a stubbly beard, no tits, chest hair and a penis, would you feel like yourself, would you look in te mirror and still feel like yourself? Still see yourself? Or would you feel as if you were yourself in the wrong body? Do you feel like you could get used to it, or do you feel like it might feel worse and worse to look like that for the rest of your life? Would you still dress like a female, would you shave your beard and apply makeup so people see you as female?

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

No...they are a very very real thing.

What is 'living as male/female'? Stereotypical stuff/appearance?

The difference between race and gender is, race is cultural, gender is biological, you can't be born white and say "well actually I feel Chinese" because you aren't, Chinese is a cultural thing, something that is learned after you have been born. Gender is different, as it more about how the chemicals in your body make you feel, you can feel wrong in your own body, thanks to how your own body works. I can't say I fully understand it all myself, but if people are willing to under go gender realignment surgery, something that is generally for the most part irreversible, they must be pretty damn serious about how they feel.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I guess the whole debate lacks scientific research and so people can just say things and get away with it.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Weird question Vicky, but if you woke up with a stubbly beard, no tits, chest hair and a penis, would you feel like yourself, would you look in te mirror and still feel like yourself? Still see yourself? Or would you feel as if you were yourself in the wrong body? Do you feel like you could get used to it, or do you feel like it might feel worse and worse to look like that for the rest of your life?

Its not waking up one morning though, its being born that way. You have no frame of reference? In this thought experiment, I know what it is like to have a female body, and also a male body. Trans people do not.

To answer though..I could get used to it pretty quickly I think.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Still doesn't answer..

Excuse me! I do have other things to do instead and of hovering over this thread all afternoon. I gave you an answer when I had time. Patience is a virtue!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I disagree. Much to do with the brain is inconclusive and we probably won't know anything conclusively in our lifetime. Grey and white matter is not an easy thing to study.

Even when it comes to female sexuality, its only very recently that human biologists discovered the female clitoris is in fact a lot bigger than previously thought. We are discovering things all the time. In reality though, its a lot more complicated than just our sexual genitalia

So...what are your definitions of man and woman?!

All of this is very interesting, but words have to actually mean something? If we cannot say what a woman actually IS, how can anyone 'identify' as one?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Excuse me! I do have other things to do instead and of hovering over this thread all afternoon. I gave you an answer when I had time. Patience is a virtue!

You seemingly have time to go into brain differences, hormones and hermaphrodites though? There has not been an actual answer given to the question

Edit. OH. I meant the edit still doesnt answer the question...I see now that came across wrong.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

To answer though..I could get used to it pretty quickly I think.

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Chewy

The difference between race and gender is, race is cultural, gender is biological, you can't be born white and say "well actually I feel Chinese" because you aren't, Chinese is a cultural thing, something that is learned after you have been born. Gender is different, as it more about how the chemicals in your body make you feel, you can feel wrong in your own body, thanks to how your own body works. I can't say I fully understand it all myself, but if people are willing to under go gender realignment surgery, something that is generally for the most part irreversible, they must be pretty damn serious about how they feel.

Surely you can equally say...you can't be born male and say 'well actually I feel female' because you aren't? I would argue that femininity and masculinity are what is learnt after birth. And in such, 'gender' is actually masculinity or femininity rather than sex