[Withano]

Weird question Vicky, but if you woke up with a stubbly beard, no tits, chest hair and a penis, would you feel like yourself, would you look in te mirror and still feel like yourself? Still see yourself? Or would you feel as if you were yourself in the wrong body? Do you feel like you could get used to it, or do you feel like it might feel worse and worse to look like that for the rest of your life? Would you still dress like a female, would you shave your beard and apply makeup so people see you as female?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Weird question Vicky, but if you woke up with a stubbly beard, no tits, chest hair and a penis, would you feel like yourself, would you look in te mirror and still feel like yourself? Still see yourself? Or would you feel as if you were yourself in the wrong body? Do you feel like you could get used to it, or do you feel like it might feel worse and worse to look like that for the rest of your life?

Its not waking up one morning though, its being born that way. You have no frame of reference? In this thought experiment, I know what it is like to have a female body, and also a male body. Trans people do not.

To answer though..I could get used to it pretty quickly I think.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

To answer though..I could get used to it pretty quickly I think.

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?


Edit. Ahh you were meaning gender as in sex. Mixing them up again. Well...not really. I AM the sex I am...thats kind of it. Only time I have ever 'felt female' was when giving birth, breastfeeding and such.

This gender/sex mixup thing confuses me as I thought til last year that they both meant the same thing and that gender was just a polite way of saying sex

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?

Just try and imagine a world where people think differently to this, and they do. Im not male because I like blue and I have a killer beard, I'm male because I would feel uncomfortable in my own skin if I had a vagina tomorrow, I wouldnt want to visit female bathrooms, I wouldnt want to appear female - I would want to continue to act like myself (which is far from the stereotypical male) and I would struggle to do that if I was to look in the mirror and see something which doesnt even closely resemble how I inherently feel.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Just try and imagine a world where people think differently to this, and they do. Im not male because I like blue and I have a killer beard, I'm male because I would feel uncomfortable in my own skin if I had a vagina tomorrow, I wouldnt want to visit female bathrooms, I wouldnt want to appear female - I would want to continue to act like myself (which is far from the stereotypical male) and I would struggle to do that if I was to look in the mirror and see something which doesnt even closely resemble how I inherently feel.

OK. So if its nothing to do with liking blue and having a beard, why do (most) transgender people say that they 'knew' when they realized they liked trucks instead of dolls as a kid..when they didn't want to wear dresses. Why do transwomen grow out their hair long and start wearing dresses. If stereotypical things are nothing to do with it? I actually do want to understand as I can't make sense of it.

As taking sex dysphoria out of the equation...there is really nothing left.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

OK. So if its nothing to do with liking blue and having a beard, why do (most) transgender people say that they 'knew' when they realized they liked trucks instead of dolls as a kid..when they didn't want to wear dresses. Why do transwomen grow out their hair long and start wearing dresses. If stereotypical things are nothing to do with it? I actually do want to understand as I can't make sense of it.

As taking sex dysphoria out of the equation...there is really nothing left.

I mean, I did send you a link full of real transgender people claiming that this is not at all reflective of their experience, you dismissed it.
But I guess a lot of transgender people perform in stereotypical ways in attempt to appear to themselves and others around them in the way that they inherently feel, a bit like a lot of cisgendered females. Off the top of my head, this might be for comfort, for over compersation, in an attempt to avoid discrimination or bullying, so they can go shopping/bathroom without uncomfortable glares, because they want to appear similarly to those they admire. Etc etc, probably lots of various reasons to each person.
Not all transgender women wear dresses and avoid playing with trucks, I think thats an important milestone for you to understand in this debate.
I cant imagine there would be any significant difference between the ratio of transgender and cisgender women who act in these stereotypically feminine ways.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?


Edit. Ahh you were meaning gender as in sex. Mixing them up again. Well...not really. I AM the sex I am...thats kind of it. Only time I have ever 'felt female' was when giving birth, breastfeeding and such.

This gender/sex mixup thing confuses me as I thought til last year that they both meant the same thing and that gender was just a polite way of saying sex

I find this alien to how I think and feel about being a woman. I love being a female so thank God I wasn't born a male. I enjoy the huge array of clothes I can wear. I like dressing up and going out on the arm of a strong man (my husband) I love that he loves my femininity.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

I'd feel the same as Vicky on it tbh, obviously it would be weird if I was actually a woman yesterday though and a man the next day because I would have actually phsically and mentally experianced being a woman and then had a body swap so not really tbe same thing