[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?


Edit. Ahh you were meaning gender as in sex. Mixing them up again. Well...not really. I AM the sex I am...thats kind of it. Only time I have ever 'felt female' was when giving birth, breastfeeding and such.

This gender/sex mixup thing confuses me as I thought til last year that they both meant the same thing and that gender was just a polite way of saying sex

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?

Just try and imagine a world where people think differently to this, and they do. Im not male because I like blue and I have a killer beard, I'm male because I would feel uncomfortable in my own skin if I had a vagina tomorrow, I wouldnt want to visit female bathrooms, I wouldnt want to appear female - I would want to continue to act like myself (which is far from the stereotypical male) and I would struggle to do that if I was to look in the mirror and see something which doesnt even closely resemble how I inherently feel.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Just try and imagine a world where people think differently to this, and they do. Im not male because I like blue and I have a killer beard, I'm male because I would feel uncomfortable in my own skin if I had a vagina tomorrow, I wouldnt want to visit female bathrooms, I wouldnt want to appear female - I would want to continue to act like myself (which is far from the stereotypical male) and I would struggle to do that if I was to look in the mirror and see something which doesnt even closely resemble how I inherently feel.

OK. So if its nothing to do with liking blue and having a beard, why do (most) transgender people say that they 'knew' when they realized they liked trucks instead of dolls as a kid..when they didn't want to wear dresses. Why do transwomen grow out their hair long and start wearing dresses. If stereotypical things are nothing to do with it? I actually do want to understand as I can't make sense of it.

As taking sex dysphoria out of the equation...there is really nothing left.

[Vicky.]

Wait. Are you taking transwoman/man to mean someone who has had (or seriously plans to) have SRS? If so..I think we might be on the same ****ing page anyway

This does not represent the majority of trans gender people though. The huge majority have no plans for SRS or anything and don't even suffer sex dysphoria :S these are the ones I can make no sense of

Edit again. I have totally brainfarted and lost my train of thought as having so many convos at once. Going in the bath then trying to sort this out. Ugh.

[Saph]

I dont really get why some people think they have the right to tell others how they should or shouldnt be/feel.. being part of a younger generation, stuff like transgenders arent really a big deal, its just how some people are.. In 20/30 years time i'm pretty sure it will just be the norm

its a shame that people like caitlyn jenner make it look like a quick overnight decision, i'm sure its a huge mental stress for most trans people. Imagine waking up tomorrow as the opposite gender to what you are now, you'd know that it wasnt right and wasnt 'you', thats how they wouldve felt everyday of their lives

[arista]

"Going in the bath then trying to sort this out. Ugh. "


How Nice Vicky

[Vicky.]

Right yeah I was getting debates mixed up as I thought

In short..I agree with Jenni.

I cannot come up with any definition for 'woman' that would involve transwomen. Nor the same for man/transman. The only separation I can go on is biological sex. Still willing to hear others views though

And I still do not think 'trans' can exist without sex dysphoria. So those who do not suffer sex dysphoria yet claim to be trans (eg, Danielle Muscato...anyone who believes in 'lady dick') have ulterior motives and are co-opting the struggles of transsexual people. And are just enforcing rigid sex stereotypes that we need to move the **** away from

I would loved to go back to being a good little liberal on this topic. I really would. But honestly, it will end very very badly for females. Won't affect males as much..but could still cause damage somewhere along the line.

[arista]

"In short..I agree with Jenni."


Yes I think many of us do,
Vicky

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

OK. So if its nothing to do with liking blue and having a beard, why do (most) transgender people say that they 'knew' when they realized they liked trucks instead of dolls as a kid..when they didn't want to wear dresses. Why do transwomen grow out their hair long and start wearing dresses. If stereotypical things are nothing to do with it? I actually do want to understand as I can't make sense of it.

As taking sex dysphoria out of the equation...there is really nothing left.

I mean, I did send you a link full of real transgender people claiming that this is not at all reflective of their experience, you dismissed it.
But I guess a lot of transgender people perform in stereotypical ways in attempt to appear to themselves and others around them in the way that they inherently feel, a bit like a lot of cisgendered females. Off the top of my head, this might be for comfort, for over compersation, in an attempt to avoid discrimination or bullying, so they can go shopping/bathroom without uncomfortable glares, because they want to appear similarly to those they admire. Etc etc, probably lots of various reasons to each person.
Not all transgender women wear dresses and avoid playing with trucks, I think thats an important milestone for you to understand in this debate.
I cant imagine there would be any significant difference between the ratio of transgender and cisgender women who act in these stereotypically feminine ways.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I mean, I did send you a link full of real transgender people claiming that this is not at all reflective of their experience, you dismissed it.
But I guess a lot of transgender people perform in stereotypical ways in attempt to appear to themselves and others around them in the way that they inherently feel, a bit like a lot of cisgendered females. Off the top of my head, this might be for comfort, for over compersation, in an attempt to avoid discrimination or bullying, so they can go shopping/bathroom without uncomfortable glares, because they want to appear similarly to those they admire.
Not all transgender women wear dresses and avoid playing with trucks, I think thats an important milestone for you to understand in this debate.
I cant imagine there would be any significant difference between the ratio of transgender and cisgender women who act in these stereotypically feminine ways.

I understand this...no need to be so patronizing. Most though, outside of your one reddit thread (I could come up with a dozen threads on reddit about how they do conform to stereotypes btw...these kind of links are usually rubbished on here ) appear to 'perform femininity'...not 'be women'. Prominent transwomen especially.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I understand this...no need to be so patronizing. Most though, outside of your one reddit thread (I could come up with a dozen threads on reddit about how they do conform to stereotypes btw...these kind of links are usually rubbished on here ) appear to 'perform femininity'...not 'be women'. Prominent transwomen especially.

I really wasnt being patronising. Sorry it came off that way. But you have painted with that brush a lot in this thread and I dont think its relevant. Most cisgendered and transgendered females want to appear feminine. There are some that do not.
Using the stereotypical transwoman to disregard them all doesnt add up.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I really wasnt being patronising. Sorry it came off that way. But you have painted with that brush a lot in this thread and I dont think its relevant. Most cisgendered and transgendered females want to appear feminine. There are some that do not.
Using the stereotypical transwoman to disregard them all doesnt add up.

I am not trying to disregard them all? I am trying to disregard those who do not actually suffer sex dysphoria, yet claim to be trans. BIG difference.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I am not trying to disregard them all? I am trying to disregard those who do not actually suffer sex dysphoria, yet claim to be trans. BIG difference.

Do you have reason to believe that this happens frequently/at all aside from there being a lot of stereotypically feminine trans? Because I think thats where we're disagreeing. I can't imagine the ratio of stereotypically feminine trans is any higher than cisgendered women.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

I'd feel the same as Vicky on it tbh, obviously it would be weird if I was actually a woman yesterday though and a man the next day because I would have actually phsically and mentally experianced being a woman and then had a body swap so not really tbe same thing

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Surely you can equally say...you can't be born male and say 'well actually I feel female' because you aren't? I would argue that femininity and masculinity are what is learnt after birth. And in such, 'gender' is actually masculinity or femininity rather than sex

Also a big part of "feeling like a woman" imo is learned by how others treat you as a woman much more so than whether you play with dolls or are emotional or whatever (which I dont think are indicators of how much of a woman someone is)

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Do you have reason to believe that this happens frequently/at all aside from there being a lot of stereotypically feminine trans? Because I think thats where we're disagreeing. I can't imagine the ratio of stereotypically feminine trans is any higher than cisgendered women.

Transsexual people, I agree entirely.

'Transgender' not so much. Maybe I didn't make the distinction clear and this is where the disconnect has came from with us See transgender includes so many people its insane. The most prominent (both in real life and in transactivism) are the non-dysphoric folk who shout on about how they are 'real' women...often more so than actual females. These people believe there is such thing as a female penis, spend an unhealthy amount of time trying to threaten lesbians into shagging them and try to gain access to female spaces through laws that aren't needed. THESE people I have an issue with and they seem to see 'female' as nothing more than a suit to put on...will be all about stereotypes.

I do find it rather fascinating though, that most 'trans' stories do seem to start out with dresses and pink sparkles. Almost as if if these kids were allowed to be themselves without rigid sex stereotypes forced on them then...

[Deirdre]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Also a big part of "feeling like a woman" imo is learned by how others treat you as a woman much more so than whether you play with dolls or are emotional or whatever (which I dont think are indicators of how much of a woman someone is)

yeah I was a huge tomboy when I was small. Isn't any inclination that someone might be trans.
I don't know what is, I know very little on the subject despite trans people being a huge part (sometimes the biggest part) of the LGBT scene now.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?


Edit. Ahh you were meaning gender as in sex. Mixing them up again. Well...not really. I AM the sex I am...thats kind of it. Only time I have ever 'felt female' was when giving birth, breastfeeding and such.

This gender/sex mixup thing confuses me as I thought til last year that they both meant the same thing and that gender was just a polite way of saying sex

I find this alien to how I think and feel about being a woman. I love being a female so thank God I wasn't born a male. I enjoy the huge array of clothes I can wear. I like dressing up and going out on the arm of a strong man (my husband) I love that he loves my femininity.

[Kizzy]

I'm going to attempt to put my view as simply as I can, I think you can be born male and female, and you ca choose to be male or female.

But for a male to become a man and a female to become a woman I think that happens via socialisation over the course of your life. So in short only males and females born into these genders can have the experience which shape us interpersonally and intrapersonally.

As said however people are identifying as trans younger and younger, so this would be new territory, they won't necessarily have that whole issue of living a large part of their lives as one gender before transitioning, therefore would I consider those 'women'?
I'm inclined to think not, as for me I just cannot separate the female to woman aspect and indicates a new term is warranted.

[Ronald.]

Is it offensive to say ****** these days? R

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Ronald.

Is it offensive to say ****** these days? R

It will be to some bleeding liberal.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ronald.

Is it offensive to say ****** these days? R

I think its because '******' is what has always been used for 'transvestite' typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex. Post-op females are not transvestites and so they would be offended if they were called '******'.

I wonder why females who dress up to look like men aren't called '******'

[Ronald.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I think its because '******' is what has always been used for 'transvestite' typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex. Post-op females are not transvestites and so they would be offended if they were called '******'.

I wonder why females who dress up to look like men aren't called '******'

Good question. Thanks for clearing that up. R.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I think its because '******' is what has always been used for 'transvestite' typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex. Post-op females are not transvestites and so they would be offended if they were called '******'.

I wonder why females who dress up to look like men aren't called '******'

Probably because its been normalized for females to wear stereotypically male clothing over the years. There were huge pushes for women to be accepted wearing trousers (and some places still dont bloody allow it and force skirts ) where there has not been a similar movement for men who want to wear skirts and that.

[Livia]

The first thing I want to say is that, if someone's life can be improved by them living as a member of the sex opposite to that which they were born to, then I would encourage them to do that. It's such a short life, people should do whatever they can to be happy.

That said, I personally do not consider transsexuals to be "real" women, they are transsexuals. As people have said, the transition from girl to woman and the experiences you go through are important elements of what makes you a woman. As Kizzy said, as people are identifying with the opposite sex earlier and earlier, this might change.