[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Zalinski has been very clever politically, nato wont accept anything but stable countries because of article 5, so ukraine has no chance of joining nato. Same with the eu actually, i would be surprised if they get access there either. The only reason ukraine has been able to defend itself is because of the help and training nato gave it. He knew nato's position but he can now use it as a bargaining chip with putin so thats cool

Realistically it's now very clear that Ukraine in NATO would make Ukraine a perpetual battleground... it would all but guarantee that if WW3 does ever kick off, Ukraine would be absolutely obliterated as one of the first major battlegrounds. No nation wants that role.

Ukraine was supposed to be a neutral zone, but politically they see themselves as europeans which hasnt helped reduce tensions for sure.

If ukraine come out of this with a democracy intact and holding on to the majority of their land it will be a good result. Crimea and the russian leaning areas are always going to be russian so ukraine would be best to accept that and let them go

I think something else that massively complicates this is that a lot of Russians, especially from the West of Russia, see themselves as culturally European-ish as well. Especially in Urban areas. A lot of their entertainment media is quite westernised as well, I've watched a few Russian series that could easily be set in the US or any European country other than the language spoken. Putin (et al.) are quite aware of this increasing trend and that in itself is quite likely considered a cultural threat to Russia. If the population is largely westernised then all it takes is a regime change (once Putin is gone?) and you potentially have a very, very different-looking Russia. LOTS of vested interest in that not happening.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean the obvious answer there is that these 3 are all ex-US-presidents. I couldn't tell you WHY he hasn't listed any ex-US-presidents but it would at least explain the question of "Why Hilary but not Bill". If Trump and Obama aren't on there it makes sense that Bill Clinton isn't either.

The current President is on there.

Maybe those on the list have some kind of money tied up in Ukraine?

It's all very dodgy and if we had a honest media they'd be trying to find out why. They can find out the details of Russian protesters in less than a day.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Alf

The current President is on there.

Maybe those on the list have some kind of money tied up in Ukraine?

It's all very dodgy and if we had a honest media they'd be trying to find out why. They can find out the details of Russian protesters in less than a day.

it's russia applying the sanctions, not ukraine, so if they had money tied up in ukraine it would make zero difference to them, the money needs to be in russia controlled institutions

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think something else that massively complicates this is that a lot of Russians, especially from the West of Russia, see themselves as culturally European-ish as well. Especially in Urban areas. A lot of their entertainment media is quite westernised as well, I've watched a few Russian series that could easily be set in the US or any European country other than the language spoken. Putin (et al.) are quite aware of this increasing trend and that in itself is quite likely considered a cultural threat to Russia. If the population is largely westernised then all it takes is a regime change (once Putin is gone?) and you potentially have a very, very different-looking Russia. LOTS of vested interest in that not happening.

in the far east of russia, in vladivostok, their major trading partner is japan. I know japan isn't "western", but it has everything associated with western values. All the cars are japanese and they are all right hand drive All the tech is the latest and greatest from japan. So culturally, it's just not like the rest of russia at all. Even more interestingly, that is where the russian navy hq is. Until 30-40 years ago, vladivostok was a closed city, completely isolated/protected from the rest of russia

The point being that russia has problems in a lot of its regions, not just to the west

[Zizu]

Supposed Peace Treaty details

1. Russia agrees to withdraw from Ukraine all forces that they invaded Ukraine with on February 24.

2. Ukraine agrees to not join NATO, to not allow any foreign military bases or any foreign military equipment to be stored on Ukrainian soil.

3. In case of invasion by Russia, NATO agrees to immediately impose a No Fly Zone, to deploy anti-air equipment and to begin supplying Ukraine with military hardware without requiring approval from NATO civilian governments.

https://www.ft.com/content/7b341e46-...7-802b7fa77ef1

Depending on what happens with Crimea and the break-away regions, that part seems like a win for Ukraine, but also gives Russia enough to save face .


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[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Supposed Peace Treaty details

1. Russia agrees to withdraw from Ukraine all forces that they invaded Ukraine with on February 24.

2. Ukraine agrees to not join NATO, to not allow any foreign military bases or any foreign military equipment to be stored on Ukrainian soil.

3. In case of invasion by Russia, NATO agrees to immediately impose a No Fly Zone, to deploy anti-air equipment and to begin supplying Ukraine with military hardware without requiring approval from NATO civilian governments.

https://www.ft.com/content/7b341e46-...7-802b7fa77ef1

Depending on what happens with Crimea and the break-away regions, that part seems like a win for Ukraine, but also gives Russia enough to save face .


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Oh I hope so

[bots]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Supposed Peace Treaty details

1. Russia agrees to withdraw from Ukraine all forces that they invaded Ukraine with on February 24.

2. Ukraine agrees to not join NATO, to not allow any foreign military bases or any foreign military equipment to be stored on Ukrainian soil.

3. In case of invasion by Russia, NATO agrees to immediately impose a No Fly Zone, to deploy anti-air equipment and to begin supplying Ukraine with military hardware without requiring approval from NATO civilian governments.

https://www.ft.com/content/7b341e46-...7-802b7fa77ef1

Depending on what happens with Crimea and the break-away regions, that part seems like a win for Ukraine, but also gives Russia enough to save face .


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that's fiction. Item 3 would require all nato member countries to agree to it, and as ukraine is not in nato, they wouldnt make that commitment

[arista]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

that's fiction. Item 3 would require all nato member countries to agree to it, and as Ukraine is not in NATO, they wouldn't make that commitment

I agree

[arista]

Some Snare & Tom Drums added
Top Left Dates added.

[MTVN]

Is that last point a direct quote from the article (paywall) as it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense

There will have to be some way of guaranteeing that if Russia withdraws they won't just do this again in a few years time. Seems hard to make Nato a part of that guarantee though given one of the issues in the first place is their presence in the region

Hard to see how a compromise is achieved in Crimea and the Donbass as well, maybe they remain part of Ukraine for say the next five years and then they can hold referendums on their future which are organised and monitored by a body like the UN

[arista]

Ch4HDnews Live in Ukraine
has reported although talks are going on
Mariupol is a city in south-eastern Ukraine
has had terrible deaths from constant missiles.

[arista]

Russia also demands Ukraine must have a
smaller army
before any deals.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by arista

Some Snare & Tom Drums added
Top Left Dates added.

Jen Psaki is also on Putin's list.

[bots]

Originally Posted by arista

Russia also demands Ukraine must have a
smaller army
before any deals.

thats obviously a load of bollocks to. An invading country cant say .... reduce your army size so we can invade it easier next time

[arista]

Originally Posted by Alf

Jen Psaki is also on Putin's list.

Of course.

[Alf]

How many more posts are we having in this thread before we start a new thread?

We had about 3 or 4 Covid threads.

[Zizu]

Soooo just say they did iron out some kind of peace treaty and Russia retreated ..

Wouldn’t Russia have to pay billions in compensation to Ukraine to cover rebuilding costs plus whatever ?

Or doesn’t war work like that !?!


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[user104658]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Soooo just say they did iron out some kind of peace treaty and Russia retreated ..

Wouldn’t Russia have to pay billions in compensation to Ukraine to cover rebuilding costs plus whatever ?

Or doesn’t war work like that !?!


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Only if it was part of the peace terms. Sometimes can be forced if one side properly "loses", but Russia is never going to sign anything saying they lost.

In terms of the aims Russia has openly expressed, these terms would mean that they won, as they've maintained that the cause of the action taken was NATO encroachment. Which in all honesty a very large part of it is, no matter how many Star stories insist it's because Putin has gone mad with cancer pain or whatever.

[bots]

Biden has just called putin a war criminal, and the kremlin is pissed

[arista]

[Russian forces ‘purposefully destroyed’ theatre in Mariupol
where civilians were taking shelter,
Ukrainian officials say
A bomb hit the Drama Theatre in Mariupol on Wednesday,
where hundreds of civilians were taking shelter.
Ukraine’s foreign ministry said many people
were trapped and the number of casualties
was not yet known. Earlier on Wednesday,
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy delivered
a virtual speech to US lawmakers asking again
for a no-fly zone over Ukraine and for more support]



On twitter

https://twitter.com/i/events/1483255084750282753



Evil Russia Military

[arista]

[arista]

[arista]

[arista]

[arista]

[A volunteer of the Ukrainian Territorial Defense Forces
assists a woman to cross the street in Kharkiv,
eastern Ukraine, after she was evacuated
from a burning building hit in a Russian missile strike, yesterday.]