[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Zalinski has been very clever politically, nato wont accept anything but stable countries because of article 5, so ukraine has no chance of joining nato. Same with the eu actually, i would be surprised if they get access there either. The only reason ukraine has been able to defend itself is because of the help and training nato gave it. He knew nato's position but he can now use it as a bargaining chip with putin so thats cool

Realistically it's now very clear that Ukraine in NATO would make Ukraine a perpetual battleground... it would all but guarantee that if WW3 does ever kick off, Ukraine would be absolutely obliterated as one of the first major battlegrounds. No nation wants that role.

Ukraine was supposed to be a neutral zone, but politically they see themselves as europeans which hasnt helped reduce tensions for sure.

If ukraine come out of this with a democracy intact and holding on to the majority of their land it will be a good result. Crimea and the russian leaning areas are always going to be russian so ukraine would be best to accept that and let them go

I think something else that massively complicates this is that a lot of Russians, especially from the West of Russia, see themselves as culturally European-ish as well. Especially in Urban areas. A lot of their entertainment media is quite westernised as well, I've watched a few Russian series that could easily be set in the US or any European country other than the language spoken. Putin (et al.) are quite aware of this increasing trend and that in itself is quite likely considered a cultural threat to Russia. If the population is largely westernised then all it takes is a regime change (once Putin is gone?) and you potentially have a very, very different-looking Russia. LOTS of vested interest in that not happening.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think something else that massively complicates this is that a lot of Russians, especially from the West of Russia, see themselves as culturally European-ish as well. Especially in Urban areas. A lot of their entertainment media is quite westernised as well, I've watched a few Russian series that could easily be set in the US or any European country other than the language spoken. Putin (et al.) are quite aware of this increasing trend and that in itself is quite likely considered a cultural threat to Russia. If the population is largely westernised then all it takes is a regime change (once Putin is gone?) and you potentially have a very, very different-looking Russia. LOTS of vested interest in that not happening.

in the far east of russia, in vladivostok, their major trading partner is japan. I know japan isn't "western", but it has everything associated with western values. All the cars are japanese and they are all right hand drive All the tech is the latest and greatest from japan. So culturally, it's just not like the rest of russia at all. Even more interestingly, that is where the russian navy hq is. Until 30-40 years ago, vladivostok was a closed city, completely isolated/protected from the rest of russia

The point being that russia has problems in a lot of its regions, not just to the west