[WOMBAI]

Because a life sentence rarely means that! I don't want others to die at the hands of someone who could have permanently been prevented from killing again!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Living martyrs, dead ones - don't really see the difference! And I think it is very naive to think that they would be stuck in their own country! Who would police that - doubt the Nigerians would be that bothered!

There's no such thing as a living Martyr. The whole idea of Martyrdom is that you die for it. Someone who fails to go through with an attack like this man will be seen as a failure, not many terrorists will be enthused by a failure.

With the point about Nigeria not grounding him, they won't need to. How many countries do you think you'd be allowed access to with convicted terrorism on your record? He wouldn't be able to get near any countries with it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Because a life sentence rarely means that! I don't want others to die at the hands of someone who could have permanently been prevented from killing again!

but then more will take his place potentially multiplying the number of deaths that he could ever have achieved. The death penalty is useless in this situation.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

There's no such thing as a living Martyr. The whole idea of Martyrdom is that you die for it. Someone who fails to go through with an attack like this man will be seen as a failure, not many terrorists will be enthused by a failure.

With the point about Nigeria not grounding him, they won't need to. How many countries do you think you'd be allowed access to with convicted terrorism on your record? He wouldn't be able to get near any countries with it.

They always manage to find a way - if determined enough!

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Because a life sentence rarely means that! I don't want others to die at the hands of someone who could have permanently been prevented from killing again!

That's my point. Make it a life sentence by deafult for these people. With life meaning life.

Also a living martyr is a bit of an oxymoron.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Stu

That's my point. Make it a life sentence by deafult for these people. With life meaning life.

Also a living martyr is a bit of an oxymoron.

You don't have to die to be a martyr. Any kind of sacrifice - ie imprisonment (permanent or otherwise) can be viewed as martyrdom!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

They always manage to find a way - if detemined enough!

How? Go into details please.

A fake passport wouldn't do it since his image will be marked. He could get smuggled into a country I suppose but after 10-20 years of imprisonment and abuse at the hands of others would he be so eager to return?

His image would automatically be flagged as well so if he managed to get into the country again and was spotted on a SINGLE CCTV camera it would alert people to his presence. There's no chance of him bombing planes and little chance of him getting into any countries for a direct attack.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You don't have to die to be a martyr. Any kind of sacrifice - ie imprisonment (permanent or otherwise) can be viewed as martyrdom!

It's not though, I dealt with this in my last post. A failed attack is seen as a failure. Martyrs are people who die for the cause.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's not though, I dealt with this in my last post. A failed attack is seen as a failure. Martyrs are people who die for the cause.

Sorry - but you didn't! If he had killed westerners, but not died himself, and been imprisoned for say 10 years - he would be viewed as a martyr by many - giving up his freedom, risking his life to kill westerners etc.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You don't have to die to be a martyr. Any kind of sacrifice - ie imprisonment (permanent or otherwise) can be viewed as martyrdom!

Then I guess the term has been clouded from what it once was.

That and the fact that you would be killing people who were prepared to die anyway with capital punishment. What sort of punishment to the individual is that? He psyched himself out and prepared himself for sacrafice in the name of his God anyway, he was under the assumption he was going to die anyway, so you would basically be handing it to him on a silver platter!

Compare that to having to spend your entire life in a cell and be rendered a number, unable to make a public statement of any sort, at the hands of those you seeked to destroy.

A lot of these people campaigning for the death penalty are just in it for there own selfish voyeuristic satisfaction. What honest difference does it make to their lives? Far more useful fucking things to be campaigning for, if you ask me. Maybe some of the more ardent armchair supporters of the death penalty should take up Tennis or Golf or something.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Sorry - but you didn't! If he had killed westerners, but not died himself, and been imprisoned for say 10 years - he would be viewed as a martyr by many - giving up his freedom, risking his life etc.

There's a key flaw here...He didn't kill anyone. He would not be seen as a Martyr if he went to prison. He would whoever if we killed him. You're trying to use what could have happened to augment your points instead of sticking to what did happen.

Also you haven't answered how he could have got out of Nigeria without being caught by Interpol or by any other law agencies.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

There's a key flaw here...He didn't kill anyone. He would not be seen as a Martyr if he went to prison. He would whoever if we killed him. You're trying to use what could have happened to augment your points instead of sticking to what did happen.

Also you haven't answered how he could have got out of Nigeria without being caught by Interpol or by any other law agencies.

He intended to - tried to - I am sure for many that would have been enough! He might be luckier next time - if we give him that chance!

As for the second part of your question - do you really think that organised terrorist groups couldn't find a way! I am not a terrorist - so I don't know how - but chances are they would!

Originally Posted by InOne

Killing in the name of a Psychopathic non-existing god.

What a pathetic stereo-typical comment.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

He intended to - tried to - I am sure for many that would have been enough! He might be luckier next time - if we give him that chance!

As for the second part of your question - do you really think that organised terrorist groups couldn't find a way! I am not a terrorist - so I don't know how - but chances are they would!

The problem with your whole argument is that it's based around the idea that things 'could' happen and that's extremely flawed. England 'could' win the World Cup, Eastenders 'could' be cancelled next week, I 'could' be Wonder Woman. Does 'could' make any of these statements true?

It'd be extremely difficult for him to get abroad after being deported, He'd be on the terror database of every Law agency there is and he'd be flagged in his two main targets. The fact that you're so determined to think he'd get a chance yet cannot add any arguments to that statement is amusing.

Plus Nigeria would help in keeping him grounded because if he did try another attack it could be considered Nigeria's fault for allowing him too. If you was in charge of Nigeria would you risk pissing off two pretty powerful countries?

There are far many people who considered that bright young deluded man who went from a top UCL student to a bomber as a martyr. sad. but true.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by atieah2009

What a pathetic stereo-typical comment.

Yes, cos there stereotypically is no God. You know they are different to you so just chill.

Originally Posted by InOne

Yes, cos there stereotypically is no God. You know they are different to you so just chill.

No you said "silly Muslim or Muslims" sunshine. Don't worry i won't blow up the forum.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by atieah2009

No you said "silly Muslim or Muslims" sunshine. Don't worry i won't blow up the forum.

They are silly Muslims.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The problem with your whole argument is that it's based around the idea that things 'could' happen and that's extremely flawed. England 'could' win the World Cup, Eastenders 'could' be cancelled next week, I 'could' be Wonder Woman. Does 'could' make any of these statements true?

It'd be extremely difficult for him to get aborad after being deported, He'd be on the terror database of every Law agency there is and he'd be flagged in his two main targets. The fact that you're so determined to think he'd get a chance yet cannot add any arguments to that statement is amusing.

Plus Nigeria would help in keeping him grounded because if he did try another attack it could be considered Nigeria's fault for allowing him too. If you was in charge of Nigeria would you risk pissing off two pretty powerful countries?

The fact that he tried is true - I believe we call it attempted murder! There will always be those that admire him for that alone.

How am I supposed to know how - if I have never tried to get into this country undetected. But you can't deny the fact that many get in and out of our country despite security - terrorists included!

And as Nigeria is quite a lawless country anyway - really don't think they are going to be too bothered about offending our country!

[Stu]

Here we go, baby. TiBB Muslimgate eleven!

Originally Posted by Stu

Here we go, baby. TiBB Muslimgate eleven!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

The fact that he tried is true - I believe we call it attempted murder! There will always be those that admire him for that alone.

That's true but admiration and being enthused to commit violent acts are different things, killing him would only make sure that there is more to take his place. A failed attack will not result in revenge attacks from other terrorists.

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

How am I supposed to know how - if I have never tried to get into this country undected. But you can't deny the fact that many get in and out of our country despite security - terrorists included!

How many are convicted terrorists though? It would be hard to even breathe internationally for someone with that on his record nevermind sneaking into countries.

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

And as Nigeria is quite a lawless country anyway - really don't think they are going to be too bothered about offending our country!

Like usual you've missed the point i was trying to make, If he did attack again we could take away treaties and much needed relief from Nigeria for not preventing him from doing so. If he managed to kill the punishment would only be more severe for Nigeria. Also there could be potential sanctions from other countries, if citizens of other countries were injured or killed.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

That's true but admiration and being enthused to commit violent acts are different things, killing him would only make sure that there is more to take his place. A failed attack will not result in revenge attacks from other terrorists.



How many are convicted terrorists though? It would be hard to even breathe internationally for someone with that on his record nevermind sneaking into countries.



Like usual you've missed the point i was trying to make, If he did attack again we could take away treaties and much needed relief from Nigeria for not preventing him from doing so. If he managed to kill the punishment would only be more severe for Nigeria. Also there could be potential sanctions from other countries, if citizens of other countries were injured or killed.

I didn't miss the point at all. I do see what you are saying but try rationalising that to the families of those 'he manages to kill'. You put that as if it is a minor, rather insignifant inconvenience. If he 'manages to kill' again - then, in my book, the responsibility lies on us for giving him that chance in the first place. The sanctions etc you mention are all well and good - but how realistic are they.

There are many countries that we don't have extradition treaties with who will not return citizens of their country to us to face charges for murder or other such crimes. Do they care about potential sanctions? They often have limited effect!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

I didn't miss the point at all. I do see what you are saying but try rationalising that to the families of those 'he manages to kill'. You put that as if it is a minor, rather insignifant inconvenience. If he 'manages to kill' again - then, in my book, the responsibility lies on us for giving him that chance in the first place. The sanctions etc you mention are all well and good - but how realistic are they.

There are many countries that we don't have extradition treaties with who will not return citizens of their country to us to face charges for murder or other such crimes. Do they care about potential sanctions? They often have limited effect!

But the point is killing him will only insure MORE death. Sanctions can be heavy, especially to a struggling country like Nigeria.

Either throw him away in prison for life or deport him, the Death Penalty will only lead to a lot more innocent blood being spilt.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

But the point is killing him will only insure MORE death. Sanctions can be heavy, especially to a struggling country like Nigeria.

Either throw him away in prison for life or deport him, the Death Penalty will only lead to a lot more innocent blood being spilt.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid!