[user104658]

Trying to determine the skill level of a job based on salary is absolutely ridiculous, I have no idea where the government got that idea from. I mean... it's really, really daft.

When I worked for t'bookies I had area/regional managers who were on higher salaries than newly qualified doctors/lawyers etc. and I swear some of these people are thick as two short planks. Like you could train any reasonably intelligent teen fresh out of school to do their job in under 6 months. They got the job by virtue of "being there a really long time". But going by income, they're more "skilled" than a junior doctor, or an experienced Band 6 nurse.

Some people with plenty of skill and education will have a starting salary of under £25k. Yes, it usually goes up relatively quickly but the point remains; for the first few years after training, most skilled staff's wages will fall in the "unskilled" category. Meanwhile actual slack-jawed yokels can easily get to around, say, the £40k mark through just determination and plugging away... no real skill required.

[smudgie]

In my day unskilled just meant none professional.
Pot washer, unskilled.
Chef/cook skilled.
Nothing demeaning meant by it.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by smudgie

In my day unskilled just meant none professional.
Pot washer, unskilled.
Chef/cook skilled.
Nothing demeaning meant by it.

Yeah, this.
Low-skilled is the common term I always hear rather than unskilled.

There's just been a change in how those jobs are referred to in recent years, which is rather disparaging.

[Kizzy]

Deskilling is a tack used to justify underpaying.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Deskilling is a tack used to justify underpaying.

The thing is, it's not even good business. Using bookmakers as an example - cashiers are thought of by upper management as more or less "disposable", because if one leaves, there will be plenty of applications for a replacement and no formal qualifications are required beyond basic-ish numeracy... but from experience, it's an awful tactic, a fully trained and experienced cashier is invaluable. Faster, more efficient, and because they know what they're doing, it increases customer confidence. Sure if they leave they can be replaced - but having a n00b in that seat when an awkward customer has an awkward question or complaint can mean the difference between retaining or losing that customer. A customer frustrated with a clueless member of staff can walk out of the door never to be seen again, costing the company thousands, sometimes tens of thousands.

But the retail and service sector in this country simply refuses to increase pay based on skill or experience... it's a flat rate that goes up with promotion, and that's it. No wage negotiation, no annual increase, very rarely performance related bonuses. It's the ONE aspect of employment that the US at least does get right - it's very common for an experienced, skilled member of staff who has been with a company for years to be able to have a sit down with their line manager and ask for a raise, simply based on their experience level. Doesn't exist here. A staff member with 5 years experience is paid the same as someone on their first day, whist doing three times the work twice as fast. It's stupid. I will (I hope to god) never work retail again.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing is, it's not even good business. Using bookmakers as an example - cashiers are thought of by upper management as more or less "disposable", because if one leaves, there will be plenty of applications for a replacement and no formal qualifications are required beyond basic-ish numeracy... but from experience, it's an awful tactic, a fully trained and experienced cashier is invaluable. Faster, more efficient, and because they know what they're doing, it increases customer confidence. Sure if they leave they can be replaced - but having a n00b in that seat when an awkward customer has an awkward question or complaint can mean the difference between retaining or losing that customer. A customer frustrated with a clueless member of staff can walk out of the door never to be seen again, costing the company thousands, sometimes tens of thousands.

But the retail and service sector in this country simply refuses to increase pay based on skill or experience... it's a flat rate that goes up with promotion, and that's it. No wage negotiation, no annual increase, very rarely performance related bonuses. It's the ONE aspect of employment that the US at least does get right - it's very common for an experienced, skilled member of staff who has been with a company for years to be able to have a sit down with their line manager and ask for a raise, simply based on their experience level. Doesn't exist here. A staff member with 5 years experience is paid the same as someone on their first day, whist doing three times the work twice as fast. It's stupid. I will (I hope to god) never work retail again.

I agree, we'll book in and out 600+ artics a day, if a load gets out at the wrong temp and it's rejected at store that's 40-50k of stock that's pig swill. ( you'd be surprised at how often they come to gate out not realising what load they have even though drivers get paid loads :/) inexperienced or disengaged guards can make very costly mistakes, the buck stops with us and we get paid the least out of the whole workforce.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Being royal?

[bots]

it's an outdated form of class and elitism

[Livia]

Skilled: Nurse, mechanic, chef, teacher.

Unskilled: labourer, checkout operative, security guard, production line worker.

Forget all the "every job is skilled..." rubbish. If I'm having a heart attack I don't want a hospital cleaner working on me. Of course that's not to say a hospital cleaner isn't skilled to some respect, but you don't have to study to clean, right?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Skilled: Nurse, mechanic, chef, teacher.

Unskilled: labourer, checkout operative, security guard, production line worker.

Forget all the "every job is skilled..." rubbish. If I'm having a heart attack I don't want a hospital cleaner working on me. Of course that's not to say a hospital cleaner isn't skilled to some respect, but you don't have to study to clean, right?

I presume you wouldn't want a mechanic or a teacher working on you either

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Skilled: Nurse, mechanic, chef, teacher.

Unskilled: labourer, checkout operative, security guard, production line worker.

Forget all the "every job is skilled..." rubbish. If I'm having a heart attack I don't want a hospital cleaner working on me. Of course that's not to say a hospital cleaner isn't skilled to some respect, but you don't have to study to clean, right?

Had to get the guards being unskilled in didn't you lol. To a certain extent you do have to study to clean as you have to follow COSHH guidelines on hygiene products and their uses in specific environments, use colour coded equipment to prevent cross contamination, be aware of signage to comply with health and safety regulations. So while there is no degree in cleaning there us a lot of training and responsibilities to consider expecially at the moment.

The reason most balk at the idea their job is unskilled is it leads some to think anyone can wander in off the street and do it, of course it doesn't take 3yrs to train but the term 'unskilled' is outmoded.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I presume you wouldn't want a mechanic or a teacher working on you either

No I wouldn't. I was using the hospital cleaner as an example. I wouldn't want them working on me, but they are essential to the hospital.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Had to get the guards being unskilled in didn't you lol. To a certain extent you do have to study to clean as you have to follow COSHH guidelines on hygiene products and their uses in specific environments, use colour coded equipment to prevent cross contamination, be aware of signage to comply with health and safety regulations. So while there is no degree in cleaning there us a lot of training and responsibilities to consider expecially at the moment.

The reason most balk at the idea their job is unskilled is it leads some to think anyone can wander in off the street and do it, of course it doesn't take 3yrs to train but the term 'unskilled' is outmoded.

Firstly, I didn't write security guard just to get at you. And saying something is unskilled is not the same as saying it's worthless. Unskilled jobs are just as important as skilled jobs, it's the label some people seem to take exception to. You're not going to convince me that someone who has a couple of days induction is the same as someone who has studied for years or spent ages gaining experience.

It's interesting that you never hear skilled people that there is no such thing as an unskilled job, do you.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

No I wouldn't. I was using the hospital cleaner as an example. I wouldn't want them working on me, but they are essential to the hospital.





Firstly, I didn't write security guard just to get at you. And saying something is unskilled is not the same as saying it's worthless. Unskilled jobs are just as important as skilled jobs, it's the label some people seem to take exception to. You're not going to convince me that someone who has a couple of days induction is the same as someone who has studied for years or spent ages gaining experience.

It's interesting that you never hear skilled people that there is no such thing as an unskilled job, do you.

Ok, no of course it isn't the same but it has a negative connotation to it imo. In times like these when your job is unskilled but essential that creates an oxymoron that needn't exist.
So yes it is the label that I take exception to.
I wouldn't try to convince you, I haven't attempted to suggest that they are the same at all, of course there are job specific skills that have to be attained before you can be classed quite rightly as competant in that role, nurse, electrician, plumber.
However, as TS said there are jobs mine included, that even though there is not a mandatory qualification we require certain training and experience to be effective and competent for the level of responsibility we have, it's certainly not 2 days!
That's why the term unskilled can seem a little disconcerting.

I have actually yes, my sister is a nurse practitioner and she wouldn't dream of saying that.

[Liam-]

And I wouldn’t want a lawyer to make my birthday cake, people have their jobs for a reason and everyone has to be good at their job, otherwise they’d get fired, a lack of need for training, doesn’t mean a job is unskilled, it’s just not as hard to pick up as other jobs may be

[Oliver_W]

I don't think terming jobs as "low skilled" is particularly helpful - sure, wiping old ladies' arses or flipping burgers all day isn't particularly difficulty, but I wouldn't wanna do it!