[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

What if i went into a cake shop and asked them to make a cake with say 'cake shop owners are *****'
I could rightfully be refused business because it is up to that business as to what cakes they are willing to make.

That however would be seen as being offensive to those in the cake making industry, which would possibly even come under being an offence.

What say if a strong Labour couple ran a cake making business but got a request to make a cake for a Conservatives function.
That could aslo be against their views but it would still be wrong to refuse to do so as a business.

If someone is making cakes privately from their own home, then they can be more selective but as to general businesses,customers who are doing nothing illegal, should have the right to buy from all public outlets.

[Kizzy]

I don't feel they're fair examples either, you can't really compare anything other than homosexuals in reference to religious observance, except taxmen :/

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't feel they're fair examples either, you can't really compare anything other than homosexuals in reference to religious observance, except taxmen :/

I disagree with that, discrimination is discrimination, why should homosexuals be the only "fair game" in discrimination laws?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I disagree with that, discrimination is discrimination, why should homosexuals be the only "fair game" in discrimination laws?

Because they are the only sub group referred to in scripture, that's why Christians feel justified discriminating against them.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Because they are the only sub group referred to in scripture, that's why Christians feel justified discriminating against them.

It doesn't matter whether or not Christians feel justified in discriminating against them though. It's either saying that it's ok to discriminate against a certain group as long as you're part of a religion and if that's the case what's to stop other religions doing the same against anyone they want? or else it's saying that discrimination is totally wrong for every group except gay people, they're fair game

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It doesn't matter whether or not Christians feel justified in discriminating against them though. It's either saying that it's ok to discriminate against a certain group as long as you're part of a religion and if that's the case what's to stop other religions doing the same against anyone they want? or else it's saying that discrimination is totally wrong for every group except gay people, they're fair game

It's their interpretation of the bible, that is the only group where they can legitimately say they go against their religious observance to provide a service for with regard to marriage.
If that is changed then they'll have to accept that, until then religious observances are protected under the same umbrella as gay rights as far as I see it.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It doesn't matter whether or not Christians feel justified in discriminating against them though. It's either saying that it's ok to discriminate against a certain group as long as you're part of a religion and if that's the case what's to stop other religions doing the same against anyone they want? or else it's saying that discrimination is totally wrong for every group except gay people, they're fair game

So it's ok to discriminate against somebody's religion?Forcing them to make something in their own shop which is against their religion is discriminating against their religious beliefs.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't feel they're fair examples either, you can't really compare anything other than homosexuals in reference to religious observance, except taxmen :/

Move over LT - They're's a new comic talent in town.

[Northern Monkey]

The cake shop offer a range of goods,It is up to them what is included in that range.Imo.

[Livia]

Businesses have the right to refuse service, they don't even have to have a sign up saying that they reserve the right to refuse, but their refusal can be based only on negative or threatening behaviour and not on grounds of race, sexual orientation etc.. Of course, I'm not sure if that's the same in Ireland.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Livia

Businesses have the right to refuse service, they don't even have to have a sign up saying that they reserve the right to refuse, but their refusal can be based only on negative or threatening behaviour and not on grounds of race, sexual orientation etc.. Of course, I'm not sure if that's the same in Ireland.

Yes it is as far as I know

[Christmas Dynasnow]

The best thing to do is use a little nowse and if you are a "christian" who "thinks" that the bible hates on gays and for some reason want also to hate on them then when a gay couple come in and request a cake that says "we love gay marriage" then tell them a pork pie and say you cant make it as you have ran out of icing or your dog died or you are not doing cakes this week or say that the baker may take longer as he has syphilis and its contagious

that way they go off to find another baker and the hoo ha is avoided

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The best thing to do is use a little nowse and if you are a "christian" who "thinks" that the bible hates on gays and for some reason want also to hate on them then when a gay couple come in and request a cake that says "we love gay marriage" then tell them a pork pie and say you cant make it as you have ran out of icing or your dog died or you are not doing cakes this week or say that the baker may take longer as he has syphilis and its contagious

that way they go off to find another baker and the hoo ha is avoided

Exactly LT - It works BOTH ways though and the Gay couple should just take their precious business elsewhere. This whole B.S. has been commandeered by anti-Farage elements to make political capital out of.

Blown up out of all proportion.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

[Kizzy]

A good day to bury bad news... or the right to religious observance.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

A good day to bury bad news... or the right to religious observance.

Religious observance is fine but in business it should not be forced down others throats.

I know a Jewish Family who I call friends,they have a business,their sabbath day is a Saturday, they still trade on a Saturday however.

It's called tolerance and serving the publics needs and wants, which is right.

[Tom4784]

If you offer a service that you're making money then you're a business and you should be held to discrimination laws. You should only be able to refuse service for valid reasons and having homophobic views and trying to justify them with religious beliefs that you've CHOSEN to believe in is not valid.

I hope this baker gets dragged through the mud, I hope Nigel and his party of racist homophobic throwbacks to the Nazis never come into power and I hope that any religious establishment that makes money from being a wedding venue is forced to endure the fact that they can't turn away gay customers.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you offer a service that you're making money then you're a business and you should be held to discrimination laws. You should only be able to refuse service for valid reasons and having homophobic views and trying to justify them with religious beliefs that you've CHOSEN to believe in is not valid.

I hope this baker gets dragged through the mud, I hope Nigel and his party of racist homophobic throwbacks to the Nazis never come into power and I hope that any religious establishment that makes money from being a wedding venue is forced to endure the fact that they can't turn away gay customers.

Very well said,I agree with near all that.
Perhaps I wouldn't go as far as to the description of Nigel Farage and UKIP,I share your hope they never come to power at all.

For me, that Baker should not be allowed to remain as a business to the public.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you offer a service that you're making money then you're a business and you should be held to discrimination laws. You should only be able to refuse service for valid reasons and having homophobic views and trying to justify them with religious beliefs that you've CHOSEN to believe in is not valid.

I hope this baker gets dragged through the mud, I hope Nigel and his party of racist homophobic throwbacks to the Nazis never come into power and I hope that any religious establishment that makes money from being a wedding venue is forced to endure the fact that they can't turn away gay customers.

Does this include Mosques? Would a Gay Muslim couple (and there ARE plenty) be warmly welcomed by say, the Birmingham Central Mosque in Highgate? And if not, you then advocate forcing the Mosque to marry them.

All good then.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Does this include Mosques? Would a Gay Muslim couple (and there ARE plenty) be warmly welcomed by say, the Birmingham Central Mosque in Highgate? And if not, you then advocate forcing the Mosque to marry them.

All good then.

I think 'any religious establishments' kind of covers well....anything, does it not?

[Livia]

Actually, it says in the Bible that Jews may have slaves so long as they aren't other Jews. So you're all my slaves now, okay? Especially you, Dezzy....

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Livia

Actually, it says in the Bible that Jews may have slaves so long as they aren't other Jews. So you're all my slaves now, okay? Especially you, Dezzy....

I thought we were already anyway

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I thought we were already anyway

I like your attitude Niamh. I might promote you to uber-slave.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Livia

I like your attitude Niamh. I might promote you to uber-slave.

[Livia]

I couldn't marry in a synagogue because I was not marrying a Jew. Thems the rules... But I didn't feel like I was being victimised because I understood the rules. I never took the synagogue to court... I got married somewhere else. Actually we found an understanding CofE vicar who was happy to marry us. We could have made a massive song and dance about it but like I said, I understood the rules meant a synagogue couldn't marry us for religious reasons. It's not only gay people who are excluded from marrying in particular religious venues.