[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Right now I'm less interested in Annes take on things and more interested why my take on this subject is being labeled 'vitriol' :/

I don't think he does.

He's wondering why what he sees as transphobia is routinely accepted on the forum and everything else (sexism, homophobia etc) are, rightly, cracked down on.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why are you attempting to speak for someone else?...

I'll wait to see what he says thanks.

That right Kizzy you tell him

[DemolitionRed]

Being close to someone who is trans female to male, I know how hurt he (and yes he is a 'he') would be if someone said to him, "you should know, you were once female" especially if that comment was in front of a public audience. Knowing how desperate he was to become a male (though he's not completely re-assigned yet). The hysterectomy, the mastectomy, the hormone regime and the coming out I feel for him every time I hear people mocking transgenders on here.
For him its somewhat easier because as his hips fell away and his beard grew, his voice deepened and his whole persona took on a very muscular appearance. For men who transition its much more difficult. The voice often remains deep, the Adams still protrudes, the facial features often look masculine and the hips don't grow and I think because of all those things they are less accepted. They are still seen as a c**k in a frock and people don't take them seriously.

I hate to hear a trans woman being called a 'he' because that's not what she is. Every time I hear someone saying that I think of the trans guy I know and how he would feel if someone insisted on calling him 'she'. It works both ways.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Being close to someone who is trans female to male, I know how hurt he (and yes he is a 'he') would be if someone said to him, "you should know, you were once female" especially if that comment was in front of a public audience. Knowing how desperate he was to become a male (though he's not completely re-assigned yet). The hysterectomy, the mastectomy, the hormone regime and the coming out I feel for him every time I hear people mocking transgenders on here.
For him its somewhat easier because as his hips fell away and his beard grew, his voice deepened and his whole persona took on a very muscular appearance. For men who transition its much more difficult. The voice often remains deep, the Adams still protrudes, the facial features often look masculine and the hips don't grow and I think because of all those things they are less accepted. They are still seen as a c**k in a frock and people don't take them seriously.

I hate to hear a trans woman being called a 'he' because that's not what she is. Every time I hear someone saying that I think of the trans guy I know and how he would feel if someone insisted on calling him 'she'. It works both ways.

DR I think you're preaching to the converted somewhat here, I would say that 99% of the forum and for certain me personally am very sympathetic to M/F or F/M transitions.

I have to say though that as upsetting as it was the fact was they were once a different gender... and as such will have had experiences that they could draw on for comment in relation to that.
Which to my mind is more or less what happened here, they didn't die and get reborn they transitioned, the memory of socialisation, patriarchy and peer pressure is still all there to relate to isn't it?

Should I transition tomorrow I would still have a wealth of experience as a female to draw upon a a trans man.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Should I transition tomorrow I would still have a wealth of experience as a female to draw upon a a trans man.

Do you know the difference between gender and sex? Because any F/M trans of the same age as you, also going through their transistion tomorrow would not have that same wealth of experience as a woman. They likely never saw themselves as a woman, and likely never lived their life as one. Their gender was never female and yours was - that parallel you tried to draw doesn't exist really.

I think this is the issue personally. People thinking you're only a different person after the operation. Its not the case. It was daft when Hegerty implied it, its still daft now.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Do you know the difference between gender and sex? Because any F/M trans of the same age as you, also going through their transistion tomorrow would not have that same wealth of experience as a woman. They likely never saw themselves as a woman, and likely never lived their life as one. Their gender was never female and yours was - that parallel you tried to draw doesn't exist really.

I think this is the issue personally. People thinking you're only a different person after the operation. Its not the case. It was daft when Hegerty implied it, its still daft now.

imo the difference between gender and sex is one is biology and the other is a bunch of stereotypes

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

imo the difference between gender and sex is one is biology and the other is a bunch of stereotypes

Well yeh, and thats the issue. You're ignoring neural connective patterns, white matter, gray matter, testosterone, estrogen, oxytocin and hippocampus size.. which naturally created the stereotypes you speak of. There's reasons that women and transwomen tend to be more verbal and why men and transmen tend to have poorer memory. The brains are literally different.

Assuming trans people are that way because they fit a stereotype is absurd honestly. Your gender is always in your brain, some people with penis' have a brain more akin to a woman, but some will be midway between, and some would resemble the brain of neither sex. Its just a thing that has always happened, and will always happen.

Nobody is trans just because they like make-up and used to play with dolls. Its the assumption that they are which is transphobic.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Withano

Do you know the difference between gender and sex? Because any F/M trans of the same age as you, also going through their transistion tomorrow would not have that same wealth of experience as a woman. They likely never saw themselves as a woman, and likely never lived their life as one. Their gender was never female and yours was - that parallel you tried to draw doesn't exist really.

I think this is the issue personally. People thinking you're only a different person after the operation. Its not the case. It was daft when Hegerty implied it, its still daft now.

The issue was in relation to the perception of how other men reacted to women when he was seen as male too....that's how I understood it.
Should she be in a male environment she may already identify as female whilst looking male, however other males would still react to her as male.

In many ways she would be better placed to comment on patriarchy being in a sense an incognito female.

[Ammi]

...so this escalated quickly and with a very ‘dark’ tone...let me re-read because I don’t understand, TS...(..and that’s quite unusual because you’re someone who expresses things very well..)...but I’m struggling a bit with this, with what you’re saying...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

DR I think you're preaching to the converted somewhat here, I would say that 99% of the forum and for certain me personally am very sympathetic to M/F or F/M transitions.

I have to say though that as upsetting as it was the fact was they were once a different gender... and as such will have had experiences that they could draw on for comment in relation to that.
Which to my mind is more or less what happened here, they didn't die and get reborn they transitioned, the memory of socialisation, patriarchy and peer pressure is still all there to relate to isn't it?

Should I transition tomorrow I would still have a wealth of experience as a female to draw upon a a trans man.

Okay, so here's a scenario that happened to him. At the start of his transitioning period he did everything he could to look like a boy. His mum went along with him on his induction day at uni and he was clearly concerned that people would catch him out and laugh at him (he's very quiet and shy). He had to line up and register. When he got to the registration table the woman couldn't find his name (his name is the same as his birth name as it can be used for boys or girls). The woman suddenly proclaimed loudly, "Oh here it is, I have you down as a female" and continued "Oh right ok... your a male now!!". He was devastated.

Yes, its true, he was once a girl... he knows that but that doesn't mean he wants everyone in the room to know that. Informing a transgender that they were once female is a pointless and an inconsiderate action.

Nobody dies, nobody gets physically hurt but any act that causes anxiousness, upset and even depression should be avoided. Its called tact.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Okay, so here's a scenario that happened to him. At the start of his transitioning period he did everything he could to look like a boy. His mum went along with him on his induction day at uni and he was clearly concerned that people would catch him out and laugh at him (he's very quiet and shy). He had to line up and register. When he got to the registration table the woman couldn't find his name (his name is the same as his birth name as it can be used for boys or girls). The woman suddenly proclaimed loudly, "Oh here it is, I have you down as a female" and continued "Oh right ok... your a male now!!". He was devastated.

Yes, its true, he was once a girl... he knows that but that doesn't mean he wants everyone in the room to know that. Informing a transgender that they were once female is a pointless and an inconsiderate action.

Nobody dies, nobody gets physically hurt but any act that causes anxiousness, upset and even depression should be avoided. Its called tact.

In this instance everyone in the room did know, having spent some time as the opposite sex is not a dirty secret either.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

In this instance everyone in the room did know, having spent some time as the opposite sex is not a dirty secret either.

Well as it happened, everyone in the room couldn't care less.

Being born female isn't a dirty secret but its up to the individual about sharing such information. Having someone else broadcast personal details about a persons gender is unnecessary and in his case damaging.

[michael21]

Well she old and she called Ann

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by michael21

Well she old and she called Ann

She's younger than Ann you silly boy.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

She's younger than Ann you silly boy.

So is big ben

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

I accept this is your view, so I see no argument there. But as far I'm aware, there are no protected "groups" on TiBB. Most stuff that I've seen deleted (and a lot doesn't...), it's caustic or problematic commentary meant to cause a row or derail a thread. Unless certain opinions are being policed... in which case, that is simply wrong.


On topic, with regards to transgender vitriol, in my own opinion it's something that does fly under the radar quite easily, but I don't immediately connect this with anger or hate against transgender folk (depends on the person or their commentary). I tend to think it's because many folk still view transgenderism in general as a mental illness and mockery and caustic language (prejudicial treatment) towards mental illness has always been accepted criticism of someone in our society. It's OK to call someone a looney, a bunny boiler, a pathetic drug addict, etc, if their behavior is deemed to be down to some sort of personal defect, especially if it is mental or emotional. This isn't handled particularly well in the media either and it is certainly not handled all that well sometimes even in SD. So it's no surprise that transgenderism has been affected by this stigma since it currently is casting a big shadow over the grey area that lies between mental illness or actual cultural phenomenon in present popular discourse... Some mental illnesses also occupy these grey areas.

For example, when we are talking about what is "wrong" with someone, it's generally considered acceptable discourse to include mental impairments as a way to screen their behavior for other moral or personal defects related to their personhood... for example, Donald Trump and the case for him having NPD... while the media does generally cover what he is doing, they're more often obsessively focused on his more tedious behavior(s) and treating him like a monkey in a cage in need a rubber room.. and though there is validity to connecting his behavior and outbursts with NPD (there is a strong case there I think), they actively search for his mental impairments in order to make other cases for classifying his behavior as signs of serious mental impairment.. when no one, including psychologists breaking their ethics to speak on his mental state, are in any position to even diagnose or treat him. That's an uncomfortable line being crossed for me and is being crossed more and more each day the more we bring social media into the mainstream. The more silly stuff that gets said, the more the media can dig up in other people's timelines in order to play out some cynical fantasy about other people's supposed deviant behavior.

We kind of saw some of this same "fair play" with the Aspergers discussion. Except it was used in such a way to somehow make light of fairly insensitive commentary. It doesn't matter what their mental illness is, imo, if their behavior is terrible, then it is what that is... and just the same, if someone is suffering from dysphoria and acts like a general fool on public television (India), then those same variables can't then be summoned at will as a convenient shield at very particular times to protect themselves from criticism. They have a condition or a dysphoria, but that doesn't make the entirity of their personhood. They aren't bestowed additional virtues for having been identified as such. And when we add these additional markers to make a picture of how these people should be seen on basis of labels alone, we actually further stigmatize others who doesn't necessarily share those characteristics under the same umbrella.. which I think does make it much easier for some folk to cast a general blanket over certain disorders in order to validate their own shared experiences... because some sections think by placing these things on a pedestal, we "destigmatize" it. Like the concept of intersectionality, it actually makes it more difficult for those under certain labels to get out from behind them... it doesn't not just lessen the stigmatization, but it maybe even burdens them with uneasy expectations... especially for those who are still struggling and aren't coping well with even any stigma.

This is why when my grandfather lies or says he can't hear us when we're asking him very specific questions, we don't let him use his Schizophrenia or his Senioritis as an excuse to avoid ducking responsibility for his own behavior. Those are conditions that he lives with, but those conditions are not all that we see in him. And people who have had to deal with someone who is prone to this type of dodging, though it may seem harsh, that's sometimes what we have to do to get someone to not only be accountable for their own livelihood but also to get out from behind their labels so that we can see all of who they are... and not just simply treat them as a burden or disruptive element to society.

[Niamh.]

also if you look up the definition of gender it pretty much says "a bunch of stereotypes"


the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

"traditional concepts of gender"


•the members of one or other sex:

"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"


synonyms: gender

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

also if you look up the definition of gender it pretty much says "a bunch of stereotypes"


the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

"traditional concepts of gender"


•the members of one or other sex:

"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"


synonyms: gender

The problem with a lot of this stuff is semantics and I think it's largely down to a lot of the wording we use coming about before we really understood much about transsexualism. I think there's truth in what both you and Withano are saying tbh. The current definition of gender only changed to what it is now as a way of describing certain stereotypes, however it's use for a lot of issues relating to trans people is very different, so ideally when we use terms like 'gender identity' for example, a different/new term should be used imo, or the definition of gender should be changed again. The problem is that when it was coined we didn't have the same understanding we have now and it creates so much confusion in all of this!
But like Withano says, when a trans person says they feel they are a different gender to what their biological sex is, they aren't referring to stereotypes at all (confusion comes again because they'll often describe the conforming of gender stereotypes as a way that helps their gender dysphoria - not because 'dressing like a woman' is innate, but because it helps society treat them as a woman and therefore alleviates their dysphoria.) But the dysphoria itself comes from the reality of their biological sex being different to the sex they feel they are, which doesn't actually have anything to do with stereotypes.

I think a similar thing goes for the word 'cis', it annoys a lot of people I've noticed but it doesn't actually mean anything that defines you or changes how you'd be viewed or anything. It's just useful in conversation like this to separate who's being talked about, a trans person or a non trans person, which is a distinction that sometimes needs to be made (and gets made also by people who seem to have a problem with the term but just worded differently). But in actual fact it doesn't mean anything different to saying 'non-trans person', ' someone who isn't trans' etc etc, it's not applying a label it's just used to make the conversations easier to understand. Again, it's just semantics.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

The problem with a lot of this stuff is semantics and I think it's largely down to a lot of the wording we use coming about before we really understood much about transsexualism. I think there's truth in what both you and Withano are saying tbh. The current definition of gender only changed to what it is now as a way of describing certain stereotypes, however it's use for a lot of issues relating to trans people is very different, so ideally when we use terms like 'gender identity' for example, a different/new term should be used imo, or the definition of gender should be changed again. The problem is that when it was coined we didn't have the same understanding we have now and it creates so much confusion in all of this!
But like Withano says, when a trans person says they feel they are a different gender to what their biological sex is, they aren't referring to stereotypes at all (confusion comes again because they'll often describe the conforming of gender stereotypes as a way that helps their gender dysphoria - not because 'dressing like a woman' is innate, but because it helps society treat them as a woman and therefore alleviates their dysphoria.) But the dysphoria itself comes from the reality of their biological sex being different to the sex they feel they are, which doesn't actually have anything to do with stereotypes.

I think a similar thing goes for the word 'cis', it annoys a lot of people I've noticed but it doesn't actually mean anything that defines you or changes how you'd be viewed or anything. It's just useful in conversation like this to separate who's being talked about, a trans person or a non trans person, which is a distinction that sometimes needs to be made (and gets made also by people who seem to have a problem with the term but just worded differently). But in actual fact it doesn't mean anything different to saying 'non-trans person', ' someone who isn't trans' etc etc, it's not applying a label it's just used to make the conversations easier to understand. Again, it's just semantics.

I take your points Jamie but I guess I just don't understand how a person born in one sex can feel like an other when I whole heartedly believe that feeling like a woman comes directly from sex and how your life experiences go because of being that sex. I feel like I'm just repeating what I've already said now though but I guess that's just what I think about it. It's always a pleasure reading your views though, you put your points across very well

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I take your points Jamie but I guess I just don't understand how a person born in one sex can feel like an other when I whole heartedly believe that feeling like a woman comes directly from sex and how your life experiences go because of being that sex. I feel like I'm just repeating what I've already said now though but I guess that's just what I think about it. It's always a pleasure reading your views though, you put your points across very well

Thanks Niamh In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Thanks Niamh In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

And I have an awful lot of sympathy for anyone in that situation Jamie, I really do, it must be awful to feel that way and I'm not for second saying that I think they're making it all up, I just think it's unhelpful to try and label it in a way that's trying to build up stereotypes again

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Thanks Niamh In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

...yeah and there always has to be a ‘first’ as well, Jamie...or a first recognised, which many have been made more aware of recently because of ‘The Danish Girl’...and Lili being the first surgical ‘transitioning’....but she felt before that, I guess fitted some ‘female strereotypes’....I think the progress is that tran people no longer have to look at surgery as being the only option to have recognition of their gender...which is why i’m pro self-identifying also...but then with self identification, it’s always the thing of being open to ‘abuse’ as well...so I do completely understand concerns there also...which is why it’s so important that these things can be discussed without ‘labelling’....

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Thanks Niamh In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

I am not convinced about the female brain stuff tbh Jamie but I do agree with you that it is clear that the desire/need to be a sex you weren't born into is a mental health issue. Where we differ strongly is that, while I'm not unsympathetic to the problem, I am also not convinced cosmetically removing or restructuring people's sexual organs is an appropriate 'cure/treatment'. It doesn't suddenly make you sexually attractive to straight men, change a male body shape etc (same really for a trans man and I hear the penis doesn't look good either). I've read that suicide rates after surgery are high and this leads me to conclude it isn't the magical shangrila people convince themselves it will be. Many of the problems of not being the sex you desire to be are still there and I think more counselling might be more helpful than surgery.

However the biggest aversion I have to the whole subject is how people who are mostly in fact men are suddenly telling us we must fully accept trans people as the same as us women. Have even invented a conversational word for us as cis women, trying to blur the lines. You don't need to invent a word in conversation to make it easier, you can say woman and trans woman, there you are sorted.

This isn't a feeling against a trans person it is a fight for our identity.

[DemolitionRed]

The problem for me is, this started as an energetic and Inteligent debate some months ago. The person who lead that debate was very diplomatic and many of the people who joined in, including you Kizzy, stated the opinion they are entitled to in a way that it could be discussed further. I think most of enjoyed that debate. Then other debates started where transgenderism was a main point and because it had now been established who was for and against, it was much more vitriol than the first one. It started to sound hateful and transphobic, unlike the first one. I didn't join in those threads because I didn't see any point. I saw comments being accepted that didn't sit comfortably with me and so after reading half a dozen posts, I just sighed and shut it down. At one point on here it felt like transgenderism was being hung drawn and quartered.

I think Vicky, Niamh and Kizzy are intelligent women and more than capable of having some good debates. Unfortunately those sort of threads attract tag teaming and bitterness from certain people who's only way of debating is to make a strong attempt to shut opposing opinions down. I know I came back strongly at Vicky in that first post. She didn't take offense but explained why she felt like she did and equally, I didn't take offense at why she felt the way she did. I can't though, remain calm when someone else jumps on my explanation of acceptance and attempts to mock my opinion with sarcasms.

[user104658]

I have literally no time to go into this in much depth as I'm leaving for work in 10 mins and I'm not even dressed, but as a quick run-down ;

- I'm not just talking about this thread (this may be where some of the confusion is coming from).

- I'm not saying there isn't scope for discussion or scepticism or criticism on the topic, at all, and yes Vicky has done so in a well thought out way several times.

- she is also guilty of posting the (to paraphrase) comments that amount to "Just because a bloke cuts off his dick doesn't make him a woman!!". Again this is not an exact quote, just in the ball park.

- these are what I have a problem with because points being made with similar language would quite blatantly NOT be accepted if it was about a racial group, homosexuals, or pretty much any other group.

- my MAIN ISSUE is that it has to be either OK or not OK. My personal view is that I have ZERO doubt that these comments would be far more likely to be flagged if several moderators hadn't expressed clear support of those comments or the ideology behind them. In the past, I've never had any major concerns about mod impartiality on here but at this point, there are clear issues.

- Kizzy. I didn't quote ANYONE in my initial post about this. Feel free to check, guys. I quoted Kizzy AFTER Kizzy demanded to see an example, as it was the most recent example on the page. I'm sorry Kizzy but none of this is about you at all. I know that's hard to accept.



Anyway like I said, can't really go into a back and forth on this just now but (look forward to it, guys!) I'm off tomorrow so I'm going to mull the issue over and give it it's own thread. Just wanted to address some of the initial misunderstanding.