[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Maru

and we're all prone to stupid.

Quite. A point touched upon in my (admittedly very very long) link from earlier.

David Diamond is picking at his breakfast at a Washington hotel, trying to explain.

“Memory is a machine,” he says, “and it is not flawless. Our conscious mind prioritizes things by importance, but on a cellular level, our memory does not. If you’re capable of forgetting your cellphone, you are potentially capable of forgetting your child.”

Diamond is a professor of molecular physiology at the University of South Florida and a consultant to the veterans hospital in Tampa. He’s here for a national science conference to give a speech about his research, which involves the intersection of emotion, stress and memory. What he’s found is that under some circumstances, the most sophisticated part of our thought-processing center can be held hostage to a competing memory system, a primitive portion of the brain that is -- by a design as old as the dinosaur’s -- inattentive, pigheaded, nonanalytical, stupid.

Diamond is the memory expert with a lousy memory, the one who recently realized, while driving to the mall, that his infant granddaughter was asleep in the back of the car. He remembered only because his wife, sitting beside him, mentioned the baby. He understands what could have happened had he been alone with the child. Almost worse, he understands exactly why.

The human brain, he says, is a magnificent but jury-rigged device in which newer and more sophisticated structures sit atop a junk heap of prototype brains still used by lower species. At the top of the device are the smartest and most nimble parts: the prefrontal cortex, which thinks and analyzes, and the hippocampus, which makes and holds on to our immediate memories. At the bottom is the basal ganglia, nearly identical to the brains of lizards, controlling voluntary but barely conscious actions.

Diamond says that in situations involving familiar, routine motor skills, the human animal presses the basal ganglia into service as a sort of auxiliary autopilot. When our prefrontal cortex and hippocampus are planning our day on the way to work, the ignorant but efficient basal ganglia is operating the car; that’s why you’ll sometimes find yourself having driven from point A to point B without a clear recollection of the route you took, the turns you made or the scenery you saw.

Ordinarily, says Diamond, this delegation of duty “works beautifully, like a symphony. But sometimes, it turns into the ‘1812 Overture.’ The cannons take over and overwhelm.”

By experimentally exposing rats to the presence of cats, and then recording electrochemical changes in the rodents’ brains, Diamond has found that stress -- either sudden or chronic -- can weaken the brain’s higher-functioning centers, making them more susceptible to bullying from the basal ganglia. He’s seen the same sort of thing play out in cases he’s followed involving infant deaths in cars.

“The quality of prior parental care seems to be irrelevant,” he said. “The important factors that keep showing up involve a combination of stress, emotion, lack of sleep and change in routine, where the basal ganglia is trying to do what it’s supposed to do, and the conscious mind is too weakened to resist. What happens is that the memory circuits in a vulnerable hippocampus literally get overwritten, like with a computer program. Unless the memory circuit is rebooted -- such as if the child cries, or, you know, if the wife mentions the child in the back -- it can entirely disappear.”

[jaxie]

What I find most odd about this story, beyond the fact that someone failed to remember to drop off a baby and also didn't see the baby in the back seat when getting out of the car, is the time lapse. It seems odd that she didn't check in with the caregiver during lunch with regard such a young baby, or at some point during the day.

I did have a friend who said she went out to the shops and left her newborn in his pram in the hallway of her house but she remembered him within few minutes of leaving the house and ran home in a panic. Most people I've heard of doing this remember their child very quickly so yes the time lapse seems a bit strange.

I also find it really odd that anyone can leave a car without seeing the child seat through the window. Most seats for a baby that young are fairly noticeable and come out of the car with the baby in it.

I think there are definitely questions to be asked and answered of the mother.

[Crimson Dynamo]

all the memory stuff is just fine but does any of it explain forgetting ALL DAY?

[Beso]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i expect she did not forget her mobile phone...

Not all day, thats for sure.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Quite. A point touched upon in my (admittedly very very long) link from earlier.

Psychobabble, Vicky - Sorry.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

all the memory stuff is just fine but does any of it explain forgetting ALL DAY?

It wouldn't actually be forgetting all day though if she had it in her head the baby was in nursery as normal?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It wouldn't actually be forgetting all day though if she had it in her head the baby was in nursery as normal?

yes but to be under that delusion all day?

have you ever had such an spic and all day delusion like this?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes but to be under that delusion all day?

have you ever had such an spic and all day delusion like this?

Well you wouldn't think about it though If you just assumed you'd done what you did every other day, it's not like all day you're actively forgetting?

I've forgotten stuff that are part of normal routines before yeah, thankfully nothing like this though

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well you wouldn't think about it though If you just assumed you'd done what you did every other day, it's not like all day you're actively forgetting?

I've forgotten stuff that are part of normal routines before yeah, thankfully nothing like this though

I would like to know what medications this lady is taking as it sounds like she was in a painkiller haze

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I would like to know what medications this lady is taking as it sounds like she was in a painkiller haze

or just really tired and distracted

[Cherie]

I still can't get over getting out of the car and not noticing, she was going to work so it is not like she wouldn't have her handbag and or her lunch, so you pull up and park, with no reversing in this case as you would see the baby in your rear view, and even if your handbag is in the front seat surely in your peripheral vision you would catch sight of the baby seat, unless the seat was behind the drivers seat but then you get out bang the door, no one closes a car door gently, lock the door even with a zapper you tend to look so again, but maybe the rear windows where tinted,

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

or just really tired and distracted

nope

not all day

[Ammi]

..I guess all of those things will go on and on and on and on in her head for a lifetime, Cherie...how could I have...how, how, how...so tragic.....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm sorry, but on this - as with most subjects on here - I will adhere to my intuition, logic and personal experience.

T.S - I respect your qualification, but to be honest, as far as I am concerned,'facts' from the fields of psychology and cognitive neuroscience are not facts at all but mere 'theory'. .

As I said kirk, thankfully, in cases such as these it really doesn't matter what you believe / don't believe or understand / don't understand, because the legal policy surrounding these issues is based on established medical fact and not the whim of members of the public who "don't get it".

To answer other questions I've randomly seen,

1) it's more common in the US because their maternity laws are absolutely shocking, so yes, it is relatively common for month old babies to be in daycare because exhausted new parents are expected to be straight back to work. It's not something we're used to seeing in the UK because of mandatory maternity pay laws.

2) Yes "all day" is perfectly feasible because what we're talking about is a "memory trick" not simply "forgetting something". People are trying to understand it based on "absentmindedness"; it's more like a memory hiccup, misremembering events from a previous day (such as dropping off a child) as if they happened that day. One of the main causes of that phenomenon is sleep deprivation, as the late phases of your sleep cycle are when your "fresh" memories of the previous day are categorised into long term memory. In other words, not getting enough sleep can trick your brain into thinking that events from the previous day happened that day.


I'm sure this will also be branded "psycho babble!" and people will determinedly insist that there's no WAY that this could happen to them but... It could.

Similar to how people hear about full amnesia / dementia, and most people think, "Oh that surely couldn't happen to me... I could never forget who my family is!"

Yes you could.

[Cherie]

At any rate it is happening a little too often for procedures not to be put in place at private nurseries

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As I said kirk, thankfully, in cases such as these it really doesn't matter what you believe / don't believe or understand / don't understand, because the legal policy surrounding these issues is based on established medical fact and not the whim of members of the public who "don't get it".

To answer other questions I've randomly seen,

1) it's more common in the US because their maternity laws are absolutely shocking, so yes, it is relatively common for month old babies to be in daycare because exhausted new parents are expected to be straight back to work. It's not something we're used to seeing in the UK because of mandatory maternity pay laws.

2) Yes "all day" is perfectly feasible because what we're talking about is a "memory trick" not simply "forgetting something". People are trying to understand it based on "absentmindedness"; it's more like a memory hiccup, misremembering events from a previous day (such as dropping off a child) as if they happened that day. One of the main causes of that phenomenon is sleep deprivation, as the late phases of your sleep cycle are when your "fresh" memories of the previous day are categorised into long term memory. In other words, not getting enough sleep can trick your brain into thinking that events from the previous day happened that day.


I'm sure this will also be branded "psycho babble!" and people will determinedly insist that there's no WAY that this could happen to them but... It could.

Similar to how people hear about full amnesia / dementia, and most people think, "Oh that surely couldn't happen to me... I could never forget who my family is!"

Yes you could.

..post natal depression could be a factor as well in the thought links as American parents go back to work so quickly, TS...that could be a ‘trigger’ for that as well...there is so much that we don’t know, I think...

[Ammi]

..it’s understandable for a healthy, sound mind to think...I could never, it could never happen, how could it happen etc...and it might have felt like a sound and healthy mind who had gone back to work and was coping with the stress balls in their life...but maybe and obviously not, at all...it’s something that really needs to be looked into in returning to work mothers in the USA particularly if that’s were it’s mostly happened...
.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

nope

not all day

You're just saying the same thing over and over and totally ignoring the whole day thing but whatever

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You're just saying the same thing over and over and totally ignoring the whole day thing but whatever

but all the whole she was tired arguments are fine to forget an appointment, why you went upstairs, why you left your phone at home, why you forgot a dentist appointment but so not explain why you would think you had dropped off a child and why that delusion lasted all day?

unless she was on some sort of strong medication

[user104658]

Honestly, people who find this phenomenon far-fetched should look into things like fugue states, or the aftereffects of a corpus callosotomy (the link between the two hemispheres of the brain being severed).

Yes, they do seem utterly unbelievable. Because thankfully for most of us, most of the time, things "just work" so we get the impression that the mind and cognition are relatively stable / simple.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

but all the whole she was tired arguments are fine to forget an appointment, why you went upstairs, why you left your phone at home, why you forgot a dentist appointment but so not explain why you would think you had dropped off a child and why that delusion lasted all day?

unless she was on some sort of strong medication

What confuses me a bit LT is that you believe it can happen under the effects of drugs, but not as an effect of stress and sleep deprivation... When those things can have just as big an effect (and more!) as any drug?

I mean even on the most basic level, it has been statistically PROVEN that driving while extremely tired is just as dangerous (and often more dangerous) than driving under the effects of alcohol or drugs. And that's not just because of the risk of passing out, it's because of the drastic reduction in reaction time and ability to concentrate.

[user104658]

I mean just for context here; several days of sleep deprivation can cause seizures, auditory and visual hallucinations, temporary psychosis and eventually can even kill you.

Why people don't believe that in more minor cases it could cause memory tricks / lapse in concentration "for a whole day" is beyond me.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

At any rate it is happening a little too often for procedures not to be put in place at private nurseries

Yes absolutely right Cherie, a policy of calling the parent/s if a child doesn't arrive would be a good idea I think. My kids school do this

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What confuses me a bit LT is that you believe it can happen under the effects of drugs, but not as an effect of stress and sleep deprivation... When those things can have just as big an effect (and more!) as any drug?

I mean even on the most basic level, it has been statistically PROVEN that driving while extremely tired is just as dangerous (and often more dangerous) than driving under the effects of alcohol or drugs. And that's not just because of the risk of passing out, it's because of the drastic reduction in reaction time and ability to concentrate.

i am just looking at the more likely scenario

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes absolutely right Cherie, a policy of calling the parent/s if a child doesn't arrive would be a good idea I think. My kids school do this

I think when kids get 'into the system' all nurseries and schools have to do it because attendance is monitored, at private nurseries I doubt they need to do it but they should

Such a simple policy to put in place, all you need is an answerphone, and charge parents an admin fee if they do not ring up, for the staff time ringing them, how many babies lives would be saved they all seem to happen with nursery drop off