[Lostie!]

Pretty ridiculous that any vegetarian related topic on here has to descend into juvenile mud slinging

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Lostie!

Pretty ridiculous that any vegetarian related topic on here has to descend into juvenile mud slinging

Aliens though.

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Also, I worry for anyone who can't put a meal together without animal or something like quorn in it.

Why should that worry you?

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Aliens though.

Aliens are more plausible than god tho and many believe in god, so that simple though experiment shouldn't be so ridiculous

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Not aliens.

If that was part of evolution then so be it.

But we're a bit different from pigs as a species. Obviously.

If it's part of evolution then are wars fair enough because if you can dominate others, you should? Don't get how evolution means you have to dominate.
Pigs arent far off from small children.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Aliens are more plausible than god tho and many believe in god, so that simple though experiment shouldn't be so ridiculous

No. This isn't about the existence of religion or aliens. It's about aliens being brought into a discussion about vegetarians.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

If it's part of evolution then are wars fair enough because if you can dominate others, you should? Don't get how evolution means you have to dominate.
Pigs arent far off from small children.

Wars don't have anything to do with evolution or nature.

I'm not sure why you keep changing the topic tbh.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

We're not better than other animals. They are helpless, they don't deserve what humans put them through. We can make choices that either contribute to these innocent creatures with brains and hearts being hurt or we can decide not to.

Also, I worry for anyone who can't put a meal together without animal or something like quorn in it.

I'm sure most people could put a meal together without meat, the fact is many people don't want to. Nothing to do with inadequacy. So I wouldn't worry.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

You might think it's natural to eat meat because you were raised on that idea, but not everything that's natural is the right way. Also, we are able to rationalise doing less harm and being less cruel. None can be 100% cruelty free in this day and age, but at least we can make a little bit of effort to do what we're able to. Right now, it's not convenient for me to stop eating animals, but I'm able to and that makes a difference to me and my conscience, as well as all of the animals I'm not going to eat. Am I wrong for this?

It's an interesting point, something being the normal way of doing things doesn't mean it's natural, if you think about wearing clothes for example I think most people would agree it's not because it's natural... I mean we call people who don't 'naturists' yet how long have humans worn clothes for?
I think social norms probably play a big part in all of this actually, because where comparisons between us and other animals and the food chain etc (when it comes to whether or not meat eating is natural/instinctive) are concerned, it's ignoring that we're very different to most other animals in the extent to which we're effected by social conditioning, and I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty sure I don't feel instinctive urges to eat animals. If you think about the meat we eat and our urges towards it and how much we enjoy it etc we think of how it looks and tastes after cooking... not many of us would be happy eating raw animal flesh and it can also be dangerous for us to do so... we literally have to turn it into something unrecognisable for it to be appealing to us and for it to be safe, and that doesn't seem 'natural' to me? I think it's very possible that similar to the clothes example we may have started eating meat through necessity, and it developed into a social norm from there.
The more I think about it the more I think there's definitely an argument for vegetarianism as being more natural.

[Jamie89]

On the moral thing though, I struggle a bit with that because if meat eating isn't the natural way, it's hard to argue that it's moral. I suppose in terms of importance I'd say that it's ok to view animals as less important than us because that's a natural thing for any species to think? I definitely wouldn't view an animal as being equal to a child/relative/anyone tbh. But does that make it ok to kill them so I can have a tasty meal? I'm not sure what I think of all that tbh.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

It's an interesting point, something being the normal way of doing things doesn't mean it's natural, if you think about wearing clothes for example I think most people would agree it's not because it's natural... I mean we call people who don't 'naturists' yet how long have humans worn clothes for?
I think social norms probably play a big part in all of this actually, because where comparisons between us and other animals and the food chain etc (when it comes to whether or not meat eating is natural/instinctive) are concerned, it's ignoring that we're very different to most other animals in the extent to which we're effected by social conditioning, and I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty sure I don't feel instinctive urges to eat animals. If you think about the meat we eat and our urges towards it and how much we enjoy it etc we think of how it looks and tastes after cooking... not many of us would be happy eating raw animal flesh and it can also be dangerous for us to do so... we literally have to turn it into something unrecognisable for it to be appealing to us and for it to be safe, and that doesn't seem 'natural' to me? I think it's very possible that similar to the clothes example we may have started eating meat through necessity, and it developed into a social norm from there.
The more I think about it the more I think there's definitely an argument for vegetarianism as being more natural.

Excellent points there! That's what I was trying to say.

[caprimint]

Some people suggest they 'can't live without meat' and include it in almost every meal, maybe because they think it's necessary or maybe because they want to...but it's perfectly possible to create many different meals without any source of meat/alternative that is still healthy and has variety

[Marsh.]

And 90% of these other things Will, more often than not, come from an animal.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

It's an interesting point, something being the normal way of doing things doesn't mean it's natural, if you think about wearing clothes for example I think most people would agree it's not because it's natural... I mean we call people who don't 'naturists' yet how long have humans worn clothes for?
I think social norms probably play a big part in all of this actually, because where comparisons between us and other animals and the food chain etc (when it comes to whether or not meat eating is natural/instinctive) are concerned, it's ignoring that we're very different to most other animals in the extent to which we're effected by social conditioning, and I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty sure I don't feel instinctive urges to eat animals. If you think about the meat we eat and our urges towards it and how much we enjoy it etc we think of how it looks and tastes after cooking... not many of us would be happy eating raw animal flesh and it can also be dangerous for us to do so... we literally have to turn it into something unrecognisable for it to be appealing to us and for it to be safe, and that doesn't seem 'natural' to me? I think it's very possible that similar to the clothes example we may have started eating meat through necessity, and it developed into a social norm from there.
The more I think about it the more I think there's definitely an argument for vegetarianism as being more natural.

Nobody said natural because it's the "normal" way. But because that's how nature works.

Man didn't start cooking meat so it no longer resembled a living animal. It serves many purposes including preventing disease.

[y.winter]

I do find it a nice thing the increase of pro-veg posts in this thread in comparison to previous discussions where people used to mock veganism, yet lose their mind on a "man kicks dog in the street and uploads it to facebook" threads.

It's always a good time to face the consequences of what we do, look it in the eye and ask ourselves if it's really necessary and if this is what we stand for. Watch a documentary, read facts, see pictures, don't just stand there so confident about how you would like to believe things are (and many people think they know, buy it would shock you how much you don't). At least face the reality you're funding. There are always ways to improve, I'm not saying that once you go vegan you're perfect, but it doesn't mean that you don't even try. I know I always try. It doesn't hurt.

You know, people make changes. Most vegetarians weren't born vegetarians, they just adjusted to it after being meat eaters (for me it was 4 years ago, at the "late" age of 22). It's not like you're either born to to being one or you're not. You eat meat, you stop - this is the whole drill.

[caprimint]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

And 90% of these other things Will, more often than not, come from an animal.

Well vegans survive

[Denver]

Originally Posted by caprimint

Well vegans survive

Vegans dont care about plants though

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by y.winter

I do find it a nice thing the increase of pro-veg posts in this thread in comparison to previous discussions where people used to mock veganism, yet lose their mind on a "man kicks dog in the street and uploads it to facebook" threads.

It's always a good time to face the consequences of what we do, look it in the eye and ask ourselves if it's really necessary and if this is what we stand for. Watch a documentary, read facts, see pictures, don't just stand there so confident about how you would like to believe things are (and many people think they know, buy it would shock you how much you don't). At least face the reality you're funding. There are always ways to improve, I'm not saying that once you go vegan you're perfect, but it doesn't mean that you don't even try. I know I always try. It doesn't hurt.

You know, people make changes. Most vegetarians weren't born vegetarians, they just adjusted to it after being meat eaters (for me it was 4 years ago, at the "late" age of 22). It's not like you're either born to to being one or you're not. You eat meat, you stop - this is the whole drill.

Everything comes down to choices and all we can do is our best to use knowledge to help us decide on what we think is the best path to go down by using knowledge and having an open mind.

[Marsh.]

I do admire your choice even though it may not sound like it.

Like obviously this isn't dictated by your particular dislike of meat itself, so the willpower it must take is insane. All the power to you.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by caprimint

Well vegans survive

It's not about whether you can survive.

It's about making choices to avoid harm to animals. Does it extend beyond meat eating to other foods, and across cosmetic products, medicines etc etc.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It's not about whether you can survive.

It's about making choices to avoid harm to animals. Does it extend beyond meat eating to other foods, and across cosmetic products, medicines etc etc.

That's what a vegan lifestyle is all about, it's not just about eating animal products, it's about not having any animal products in your life, like not wearing leather or using anything tested on animals or with animal ingredients or animal secretions like eggs or wearing wool etc..

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

That's what a vegan lifestyle is all about, it's not just about eating animal products, it's about not having any animal products in your life, like not wearing leather or using anything tested on animals or with animal ingredients or animal secretions like eggs or wearing wool etc..

*eyes your leather jacket*

You have some work to do missy.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

*eyes your leather jacket*

You have some work to do missy.

I am not vegan and I don't have a leather jacket.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

I am not vegan and I don't have a leather jacket.

Oh so you only feel sorry for the meat. Not everything else.

[caprimint]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It's not about whether you can survive.

It's about making choices to avoid harm to animals. Does it extend beyond meat eating to other foods, and across cosmetic products, medicines etc etc.

Yeah, if you're vegan I assume it's pretty strict rather than just 'not eating dairy'. Maybe some do that if it's purely based on diet reasons, but most seem to be quite serious about it regarding their entire lifestyle choices