[Kazanne]

See if everything was out in the open ,you would see why some people were frustrated NOT angry.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

I don't think a crystal ball is required to know people wouldn't be able to control themselves

Well of course you can only speak for yourself

[Matthew.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

See if everything was out in the open ,you would see why some people were frustrated NOT angry.

yeah I agree with you Kazanne

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Matthew.

yeah I agree with you Kazanne

Thanks Matthew.

[Jordan.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Well of course you can only speak for yourself

I haven't got any active infractions, clearly doing something right

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

Oh I had one of those before a couple years back. Don't have a problem with the idea. Also don't see the point in it though.

Are you seriously claiming that you have not had an Infraction for a 'couple of years'?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

I haven't got any active infractions, clearly doing something right

yes

you have made one thread in SD in 2 YEARS...


try being a bit more daring

[AnnieK]

Wouldn't bother me but I don't think it should be a thread that people can comment on as that will descend into madness, more a thread like the old ban list where a mod updates with infractions / warnings and then locks it. Also think it should be done from a generic TIBB staff account.

This would provide transparency without allowing multiple members to question other people's infractions publicly, I think any queries should still be undertaken by PM.

That would hopefully keep everyone happy

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

I haven't got any active infractions, clearly doing something right

Originally Posted by Jordan.

I haven't got any active infractions, clearly doing something right

See; even on this thread certain of us who ARE being infracted - for what ARE the most spurious of 'reasons' - are being adversely criticised, and unfairly judged, even indicted, of wrong-doing and whinging, by other members who have NONE of the facts only prejudice because they BELIEVE they KNOW what is behind this and their sympathies lie firmly with their friends.

And even on this thread, we CANNOT air our grievances OR the facts in order to defend ourselves against these sniping attacks upon us because to do so is to receive yet another Infraction or worse.

So mock away, snipe, attack, because we CANNOT defend ourselves or even answer back in even the civillest manner without being unfairly PUNISHED and our posts unfairly removed - which is EXACTLY the same when being patronized, talked down to, sniped at, mocked, misrepresented, and baited on Serious Debates by certain parties who remain UNPENALISED.

I will probably be banned just for writing this explanatory response to your mocking post.

And if that is anyone's idea of 'Fair Play' then God forbid that any of you are called up for Jury Duty.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

I haven't got any active infractions, clearly doing something right

Strange, this is why we need it!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Wouldn't bother me but I don't think it should be a thread that people can comment on as that will descend into madness, more a thread like the old ban list where a mod updates with infractions / warnings and then locks it. Also think it should be done from a generic TIBB staff account.

This would provide transparency without allowing multiple members to question other people's infractions publicly, I think any queries should still be undertaken by PM.

That would hopefully keep everyone happy

A good compromise Annie

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I will probably be banned just for writing this explanatory response to your mocking post.

And if that is anyone's idea of 'Fair Play' then God forbid that any of you are called up for Jury Duty.

Talking about infractions is a rulebreak, kirk.. might want to edit that post.

Question is, are people aware of the tibb rules? Maybe thats the issue?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

Talking about infractions is a rulebreak, kirk.. might want to edit that post.

Question is, are people aware of the tibb rules? Maybe thats the issue?

Thank you Withano.

The question from my POV is 'Equitable Treatment'.

That's all. No more, no less.

[smudgie]

Couldn't give a fig to be honest.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Withano

Oh I had one of those before a couple years back. Don't have a problem with the idea. Also don't see the point in it though.

Same for me really. If the only change is that you can see other peoples infractions I'm not sure what the benefit would be in that tbh? It could end up being a situation where members are micro managing mods by checking who is and who isn't getting infractions and for which posts and I can see that getting quite messy. I suppose it could always be trialled though.

Originally Posted by Shaun

They technically already are on our user profiles, but I think some people can hide their profiles.

I think that's something only you can see even if your profile is public?

[Tom4784]

This thread's been mentioned in the tower and, tbh, I actually agree with the idea of, at least on a temporary basis, infractions being made public. Mainly because it will result in the wind being knocked out of a lot of people's sails when they realise that assumed bias against them doesn't exist.

In fact, to spill a little tea, a lot of people who are for this who also typically believe they are being unfairly persecuted would be faced with undeniable proof of the opposite, that they aren't infracted as much as other people are.

If this does happen, it'll be a good way to teach people to never confuse their assumptions for facts.

Originally Posted by Cherie

Where has anger been vented at mods?

Erm.

[Shaun]

Out of interest for the practicality of this being implemented: wouldn't infractions being made public counteract the measure of deleting an infraction-worthy post, if you can just then see it in this "list of infractions" idea?

For example:

Blurryface calls Amy Jade a 'nasty bitch'.
Blurryface receives an infraction, the post is deleted.
Everyone heads to "Latest Infractions" and sees: "Blurryface - 2pts - reason with quoted post"

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Out of interest for the practicality of this being implemented: wouldn't infractions being made public counteract the measure of deleting an infraction-worthy post, if you can just then see it in this "list of infractions" idea?

For example:

Blurryface calls Amy Jade a 'nasty bitch'.
Blurryface receives an infraction, the post is deleted.
Everyone heads to "Latest Infractions" and sees: "Blurryface - 2pts - reason with quoted post"

I'd assume if it were to happen, we'd just say something like

'Blurryface - 2pts - Insulting a forum member'

The infracted person would know the post in question and, in a situation where they could lie about it to rile people up, I'd say we reveal the infraction in it's entirely.

It's something I've been tempted to do often when I see people blatantly lie about why they've got infracted It's one way an open system could benefit the mods I suppose. Can't call bias if we can expose the truth when issues are raised. In the current system we kind of have to sit on our hands even when we know we can end a situation by revealing the truth.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

This thread's been mentioned in the tower and, tbh, I actually agree with the idea of, at least on a temporary basis, infractions being made public. Mainly because it will result in the wind being knocked out of a lot of people's sails when they realise that assumed bias against them doesn't exist.

In fact, to spill a little tea, a lot of people who are for this who also typically believe they are being unfairly persecuted would be faced with undeniable proof of the opposite, that they aren't infracted as much as other people are.

If this does happen, it'll be a good way to teach people to never confuse their assumptions for facts.
......................................

I'd assume if it were to happen, we'd just say something like

'Blurryface - 2pts - Insulting a forum member'

The infracted person would know the post in question and, in a situation where they could lie about it to rile people up, I'd say we reveal the infraction in it's entirely.

It's something I've been tempted to do often when I see people blatantly lie about why they've got infracted It's one way an open system could benefit the mods I suppose. Can't call bias if we can expose the truth when issues are raised. In the current system we kind of have to sit on our hands even when we know we can end a situation by revealing the truth.

It seems that we both want the same innovation for exactly the same reason.

Just for the record, Dezzy, I am NOT always referring to you when I refer cryptically to 'certain parties' because - and this may surprise you - I do not think that you are behind most of the 'punishments which I personally receive and perceive as 'unwarranted', but I do feel that the current 'closed' system does NOTHING to prevent you - as the Mod who is the most vocally active in most 'heated' Serious Debate threads - as being blamed or unfairly 'scapegoated' in a LOT of cases.

As you so rightly suggest in both these quoted posts, revealing Infractions in their entirety will 'nail the lie' in any wrongly perceived bias claims and prevent frustration and resentment from 'festering' within any members guilty of such wrongful presumptions.

It will of course, also help prove when any Infractions ARE wrongly 'awarded' and that also cannot be anything but a good thing on a forum where so many long-serving, good, and pro-active members are disgruntled, because Mods - like such members - ARE only human and are fallible and CAN make mistakes.

I truly believe that this innovation CAN and WILL help restore good relations on this forum, because there IS a problem, and it is not going to be resolved by ignoring it or stepping up punishments for members who already feel that they are being treated unfairly.

Finally, I applaud whichever Mod/Admin left this thread alone and uncensored because it is helping to 'Clear The Air' just discussing this issue. Thank You.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

It will of course, also help prove when any Infractions ARE wrongly 'awarded' and that also cannot be anything but a good thing on a forum where so many long-serving, good, and pro-active members are disgruntled, because Mods - like such members - ARE only human and are fallible and CAN make mistakes.

That will happen literally every single day, when someones mate gets infracted for literally anything. 5 or 6 people coming for the mods at once claiming the insult was only a joke or something. People will only be coming into threads to discuss infractions instead of the thread etc. Its a stupid idea hahha.

I know Dezzy thinks it will be a way to prove that people are not unfairly persecuted (which is true) but he better be prepared for the time that member A, B, C, D, and E, all fresh from the private message chat, are all gonna fight him about member F’s fair infraction.

I mean... if you like ****shows, go ahead. I’ll be there with my ‘tol’ ya so’ glasses though.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

It seems that we both want the same innovation for exactly the same reason.

Just for the record, Dezzy, I am NOT always referring to you when I refer cryptically to 'certain parties' because - and this may surprise you - I do not think that you are behind most of the 'punishments which I personally receive and perceive as 'unwarranted', but I do feel that the current 'closed' system does NOTHING to prevent you - as the Mod who is the most vocally active in most 'heated' Serious Debate threads - as being blamed or unfairly 'scapegoated' in a LOT of cases.

As you so rightly suggest in both these quoted posts, revealing Infractions in their entirety will 'nail the lie' in any wrongly perceived bias claims and prevent frustration and resentment from 'festering' within any members guilty of such wrongful presumptions.

It will of course, also help prove when any Infractions ARE wrongly 'awarded' and that also cannot be anything but a good thing on a forum where so many long-serving, good, and pro-active members are disgruntled, because Mods - like such members - ARE only human and are fallible and CAN make mistakes.

I truly believe that this innovation CAN and WILL help restore good relations on this forum, because there IS a problem, and it is not going to be resolved by ignoring it or stepping up punishments for members who already feel that they are being treated unfairly.

Finally, I applaud whichever Mod/Admin left this thread alone and uncensored because it is helping to 'Clear The Air' just discussing this issue. Thank You.

I'll be honest with you, I was behind the deleting of your Micheal thread and the ensuing infraction and I'll explain why since I think you believe you were being censored. I looked at that thread and reversed the situation. If, for example, Marsh made that same thread about, say, Kazanne for example. I think that would have gotten a very negative reaction and would have led to a lot of drama. When it comes to moderating decisions, I value consistency above all. If the reversed situation would have led to drama and would have probably been infracted then I couldn't not do the same for your situation.

People may confuse how I post with how I mod but everyone gets treated equally when it comes to modding. I wasn't censoring you, I was just doing what I would have done if anyone else posted that thread.

I think when it comes to the 'festering' resentment of members towards mods, a lot of that has to do, not so much with us but with certain members spreading half truths and lies and other members buying into it and sadly, I don't think going public with all infractions will completely fix that since, like I've said above, a lot of people tend to use their assumptions as facts and I don't think they'll let an actual fact get in the way of blaming the mods. A lot of people are 'disgruntled' because they are buying into a narrative that simply isn't true.

Still, I'd want to give this a trial run though just so we can completely upend a lot of assumptions about how people are infracted, I just don't think it'll stick with some people since it doesn't fit the narrative they want to portray.

I'll just say this as well, I think I've been modding this site for years now and I can probably count the amount of incorrectly given infractions on my hand (meaning ones given out of a misunderstanding). One thing people always forget is that all the mods see each other's infractions and we do tend to voice our thoughts if we disagree. If we were to reveal all the infractions, you'd see that 99.9999% are completely correct.

[Maru]

Mods will always have to worry about an angry mob. Unfortunately, that is "justice" on the internet. Anonymity in general allows people the flexibility to play out any role they wish, including individual fantasies of being an important clogs in the mob justice mission directives...

I don't think that making things public is a bad idea, because it puts at least some onus on the rest of the community to hold the rule breakers to a consistent standard. That can help manage egos... because they have the vent there on record, and it's also pretty easy to call out the worst of it.

If it's just people talking about the same deleted posts, then it's pretty easy to fall into the pattern of assuming a lot as bystanders... and even I'm guilty of this at times, since I almost never see the drama unfold with the real time. I'm usually on after the morning pick up when I think most stuff happens. Anyway... it's harder for the community itself to indulge a witch-hunt when the recurrent patterns of trollish behavior are laid out for all to see in plain view... then it becomes an argument with the community itself and not just a handfull of mods. I think they can manage that well most of the time, as the user base is a shared ownership in a sense... so they have some authority there... and it's easier to back up the moderators on the specifics of things, and how maybe some things could've gotten misconstrued... rather than rollover threads that read like the latest tabloid of local TiBB celebrity activity... anyway, that's my take... I've never been infracted, so the way that is handled would not effect me anyway... but I don't mind to chime in a bit if I think something is being missed in the conversation or someone is being particularly abusive... that is the way it should always be in a tight-knit community.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

That will happen literally every single day, when someones mate gets infracted for literally anything. 5 or 6 people coming for the mods at once claiming the insult was only a joke or something. People will only be coming into threads to discuss infractions instead of the thread etc. Its a stupid idea hahha.

I know Dezzy thinks it will be a way to prove that people are not unfairly persecuted (which is true) but he better be prepared for the time that member A, B, C, D, and E, all fresh from the private message chat, are all gonna fight him about member F’s fair infraction.

I mean... if you like ****shows, go ahead. I’ll be there with my ‘tol’ ya so’ glasses though.

I am completely mystified by your stance here, Withano.

Dezzy himself has stated how he is in favour of 'trialling' this proposition yet here you are all Quixotically mounted on your Rocinante tilting at windmills on his behalf.

Dezzy is undoubtedly one of the most intelligent and able members on this forum - yes, I do really believe that - so do you truly believe that he is incapable of taking care of himself if such a situation as the one you envisage did occur? (which it will not).

My proposition is not any kind of 'trap' it is a genuine attempt to resolve a very real issue on here for the sake of the forum, the Administrators, the members and the Mods and I genuinely believe that opening up these Infractions will be a step in the right direction for the reasons which Dezzy and me have already given.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

Mods will always have to worry about an angry mob. Unfortunately, that is "justice" on the internet. Anonymity in general allows people the flexibility to play out any role they wish, including individual fantasies of being an important clogs in the mob justice mission directives...

I don't think that making things public is a bad idea, because it puts at least some onus on the rest of the community to hold the rule breakers to a consistent standard. That can help manage egos... because they have the vent there on record, and it's also pretty easy to call out the worst of it.

If it's just people talking about the same deleted posts, then it's pretty easy to fall into the pattern of assuming a lot as bystanders... and even I'm guilty of this at times, since I almost never see the drama unfold with the real time. I'm usually on after the morning pick up when I think most stuff happens. Anyway... it's harder for the community itself to indulge a witch-hunt when the recurrent patterns of trollish behavior are laid out for all to see in plain view... then it becomes an argument with the community itself and not just a handfull of mods. I think they can manage that well most of the time, as the user base is a shared ownership in a sense... so they have some authority there... and it's easier to back up the moderators on the specifics of things, and how maybe some things could've gotten misconstrued... rather than rollover threads that read like the latest tabloid of local TiBB celebrity activity... anyway, that's my take... I've never been infracted, so the way that is handled would not effect me anyway... but I don't mind to chime in a bit if I think something is being missed in the conversation or someone is being particularly abusive... that is the way it should always be in a tight-knit community.

Superbly written (again: laugh Maru, and such valid points.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'll be honest with you, I was behind the deleting of your Micheal thread and the ensuing infraction and I'll explain why since I think you believe you were being censored. I looked at that thread and reversed the situation. If, for example, Marsh made that same thread about, say, Kazanne for example. I think that would have gotten a very negative reaction and would have led to a lot of drama. When it comes to moderating decisions, I value consistency above all. If the reversed situation would have led to drama and would have probably been infracted then I couldn't not do the same for your situation.

People may confuse how I post with how I mod but everyone gets treated equally when it comes to modding. I wasn't censoring you, I was just doing what I would have done if anyone else posted that thread.

I think when it comes to the 'festering' resentment of members towards mods, a lot of that has to do, not so much with us but with certain members spreading half truths and lies and other members buying into it and sadly, I don't think going public with all infractions will completely fix that since, like I've said above, a lot of people tend to use their assumptions as facts and I don't think they'll let an actual fact get in the way of blaming the mods. A lot of people are 'disgruntled' because they are buying into a narrative that simply isn't true.

Still, I'd want to give this a trial run though just so we can completely upend a lot of assumptions about how people are infracted, I just don't think it'll stick with some people since it doesn't fit the narrative they want to portray.

I'll just say this as well, I think I've been modding this site for years now and I can probably count the amount of incorrectly given infractions on my hand (meaning ones given out of a misunderstanding). One thing people always forget is that all the mods see each other's infractions and we do tend to voice our thoughts if we disagree. If we were to reveal all the infractions, you'd see that 99.9999% are completely correct.

Sincere thanks for your honesty, Dezzy.

I am chagrined about my 'Michael' post thread removal which I thought was unnecessary and about the Infraction which I thought was heavy-handed.

The thread and my OP was light-hearted, friendly to and actually supportive of Michael, but surely, even if removing it was deemed necessary as a precautionary measure for the reasons given, was it REALLY necessary to give me an infraction instead of a mere friendly note by pm or even a Warning?