[Redway]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's offensive to disagree with using physical force against a child? I don't think it is no in the same way I disagree with alot of cultural treatments of women in middle eastern countries for example or FGM in some African cultures, is disagreeing with those practices in the name of culture offensive? And if so call my offensive by all means

It’s more a deeply rooted part of child training in other parts of the world than lazy parenting. Whether you agree with it or not you can’t apply modern British standards to different world cultures.

[Redway]

And the other half of the world has more respect for elders than Britain does. That’s the funny thing considering their parents are crap according to British standards.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Redway

Older generations and people from other cultures where it’s still a thing turn/ed out perfectly okay and have more respect for their elders. Not every opinion needs quantifying and statistical verification but I’d love to see you rebute that last point about respect for elders.

Happy to. I believe that "respect for elders" is a bull**** concept and ones elders should only be respected if they are in turn being respectful. In fact, I'll go further than that. I think pushing the idea that one must unquestioningly "respect one's elders" is straight up dangerous and opens to door to covert abuse and exploitation. It's an idea that has been used time and again throughout history to intimidate and silence young people when they are being mistreated by a supposed superior. One does not become more worthy of respect with age. Respect should be the default from birth and equal for everyone until they do something to lose that respect.

Originally Posted by Redway

And the other half of the world has more respect for elders than Britain does.

Are they? Do you have some stats on figures on this? Or is it observational?
Because fear and ingrained response =/= respect, and I would counter that what you are identifying as "respect" is little more than Pavlovian dog training, and completely unrelated to true, deserved, ideological respect.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Happy to. I believe that "respect for elders" is a bull**** concept and ones elders should only be respected if they are in turn being respectful. In fact, I'll go further than that. I think pushing the idea that one must unquestioningly "respect one's elders" is straight up dangerous and opens to door to covert abuse and exploitation. It's an idea that has been used time and again throughout history to intimidate and silence young people when they are being mistreated by a supposed superior. One does not become more worthy of respect with age. Respect should be the default from birth and equal for everyone until they do something to lose that respect.




Are they? Do you have some stats on figures on this? Or is it observational?
Because fear and ingrained response =/= respect, and I would counter that what you are identifying as "respect" is little more than Pavlovian dog training, and completely unrelated to true, deserved, ideological respect.

That's a great point actually. Here I'm going to speak about my own culture as an example of that in practice, with the Catholic Church and the unquestionable and un challangable respect that was given to priests in the past and look at what happened because of that, all the sexual and physical abuse that went on, mainly towards children and they were far too scared to speak up because of that power and respect they were given. My mother told me once that she heard a rumour that a priest in her area had fathered a child and she went home and said it and her dad said "don't you dare say something like that about a Priest!" you couldn't say a single bad word about them

[Redway]

There’s always a difference between hitting a kid out of laziness and out of deeply rooted tradition.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Redway

There’s always a difference between hitting a kid out of laziness and out of deeply rooted tradition.

A tradition is putting up a Christmas tree not using physical force against a child without questioning it's merits, surely? I understand what you're saying, it's the way it's always been done however should we always just carry on doing what our parents have done and their parents before without ever looking at whether or not it's the right thing to do? If we did that society as a whole would look alot different to what it does now.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Redway

But to go on and call half the world’s parents bad parents all because you’re not in agreement with their mode of discipline kind of is offensive isn’t it.

One questionable parenting practice doesn't make a "bad parent", there's plenty of parenting things I do that are far from ideal but the idea that there's any such thing as a perfect parent is nonsense . Whether or not someone is a good or bad parent is mostly about balance, with the exception of outright abuse (as a parent who is amazing 95% of the time but outright severely abusive 5% of the time is never going to be good). No one is saying that all parents who use physical punishment are "bad parents", just questioning whether or not that one practice SPECIFICALLY is positive or negative on balance.

Originally Posted by Redway

There’s always a difference between hitting a kid out of laziness and out of deeply rooted tradition.

You say this like it wasn't "tradition" or common-practice globally within recent history. It was very much "culturally normal" for children to be physically punished in the UK, as recently as a few decades ago? It's STILL relatively commonplace . I think you maybe have a skewed perspective of it being a thing used in certain cultures that's based only on very, very recent history.

I also think there's some conflation between "hereditary habit" and "culture and tradition" here because I can't imagine many people unironically saying "Of course I hit my kids - it's tradition!"... more likely a much more generalised "Well sometimes it's necessary and my parents did it and it hasn't done me any harm" etc etc.

I would add there though my opinion that refusing to challenge and think through the merits of tradition (no matter which side someone then eventually comes down on) is indeed lazy, or perhaps just stubborn, but either way not ideal in terms of parenting. Parents should always and repeatedly be considering what's the best move and assessing what does and doesn't work. Again I feel like I need to double down on saying that this is my opinion.

[internetkid]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Happy to. I believe that "respect for elders" is a bull**** concept and ones elders should only be respected if they are in turn being respectful. In fact, I'll go further than that. I think pushing the idea that one must unquestioningly "respect one's elders" is straight up dangerous and opens to door to covert abuse and exploitation. It's an idea that has been used time and again throughout history to intimidate and silence young people when they are being mistreated by a supposed superior. One does not become more worthy of respect with age. Respect should be the default from birth and equal for everyone until they do something to lose that respect.

THANK YOU! You couldn't have put it better.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Redway

It’s more a deeply rooted part of child training in other parts of the world than lazy parenting. Whether you agree with it or not you can’t apply modern British standards to different world cultures.

Once again, I'm not British and I find it offensive that you keep referring to me as that, especially considering our history. Hitting your kids is illegal in Ireland, it's not in Britain.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Once again, I'm not British and I find it offensive that you keep referring to me as that, especially considering our history. Hitting your kids is illegal in Ireland, it's not in Britain.

You know what I’m saying. Calling parents from non-Western countries lazy and crap parents because you don’t agree with their mode of discipline is more offensive than anything I’ve said on this thread.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Redway

You know what I’m saying. Calling parents from non-Western countries lazy and crap parents because you don’t agree with their mode of discipline is more offensive than anything I’ve said on this thread.

It really isn't. I'm not British, stop calling me that. Thanks.

[Redway]

Maybe it’s just my cultural perspective talking. That’s why these conversations are hard to have with people from purely Western cultures.

[Redway]

Look at this guy trying to quantify traditions passed down from generation to generation.

“Respect for elders is a bull**** concept.”

That attitude’s the reason why the kid was bold enough to call the bus driver a prick in the first place.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Redway

Look at this guy trying to quantify traditions passed down from generation to generation.

“Respect for elders is a bull**** concept.”

That attitude’s the reason why the kid was bold enough to call the bus driver a prick in the first place.

Please explain why relative age merits increased respect. You haven't and don't seem willing to; I can only assume because you have no idea how to.

And no, it doesn't explain why this kid was disrespectful. I quite clearly said that the default should be respect. He should have been respectful towards the driver because he should be respectful towards everyone and likewise vice-versa. The reason he was disrespectful was not "because he hasn't been taught to unquestioningly respect his elders", and the reason for him having a generally bad attitude CERTAINLY isn't "because he didn't get hit enough".

You're battling a point from a purely subjective stance of what you believe to be true and what you have been raised to believe is true. You have absolutely NO objective evidence for any of it, other than what you believe to be true and what you want to be true, and a few unsubstantiated observations that have far too many variables to be conclusive of anything at all.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Redway

Maybe it’s just my cultural perspective talking. That’s why these conversations are hard to have with people from purely Western cultures.

Just because something is part of a culture doesn't make it ok and un-challangable, there was plenty in my culture (IRISH) that was wrong but we're changing that as time goes by, I have no issues with someone who isn't Irish saying they think something Irish people do as a cultural thing is wrong

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Redway

You know what I’m saying. Calling parents from non-Western countries lazy and crap parents because you don’t agree with their mode of discipline is more offensive than anything I’ve said on this thread.

Oh and to add to this, I'm not only calling people from non western cultures lazy parents btw, plenty of parents in Western cultures still use corporal punishment too(just read this thread for a start) so you can stop trying to paint me as a racist or something. You're the one who brought culture into it not me, I disagree with it regardless of culture.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh and to add to this, I'm not only calling people from non western cultures lazy parents btw, plenty of parents in Western cultures still use corporal punishment too(just read this thread for a start) so you can stop trying to paint me as a racist or something. You're the one who brought culture into it not me, I disagree with it regardless of culture.

No one’s trying to paint you as a racist but culture and generation have the strongest bearing on how people interpret these things.

Bottom line is whether you’re in agreement with different practices or not corporal punishment to kids is so deeply rooted in some cultures it’s seen as an essential part of child training. Dismissing it as lazy just because it doesn’t resonate with you comes off as just a little bit offensive.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Redway

No one’s trying to paint you as a racist but culture and generation have the strongest bearing on how people interpret these things.

Bottom line is whether you’re in agreement with different practices or not corporal punishment to kids is so deeply rooted in some cultures it’s seen as an essential part of child training. Dismissing it as lazy just because it doesn’t resonate with you comes off as just a little bit offensive.

But only offensive to non western cultures? It was also a cultural thing in Western cultures too but that's starting to change because people realised its wrong to hit children.

You say it's a way of child training. It was also a way of training dogs in the past but dog trainers have updated their methods because they realised it was less effective and a bit cruel. Hitting puppies/dogs as a way of training them makes dogs fearful which in turn can make them dangerous/aggressive. It makes sense. It's logical.

I'm not going to ever sit here and say it's ok to hit a child because it offends you btw, not ever.

[Redway]

But to go on and call half the world’s parents bad parents all because you’re not in agreement with their mode of discipline kind of is offensive isn’t it.