[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Another hypothetical?

Aren't most laws made on hypotheticals, ie the worst that can happen, covering all eventualties? no point closing the stable door after the horse has bolted


Following on from your stance, would you put your child on an adult ward?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

i think if this was a discussion about prisons or something it would be a different discussion but i genuinely cannot see the issue with hospitals. i do understand the worry about self identifying though.

Yeah agree with that tbf

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

not new but hi

Your situation is different,you are in transition, what we are talking about here is someone self iding and who has made no moves to transition at all

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

this is what i meant! if that wasnt brought up i probably wouldnt comment!

But you should comment on subjects that you have a real opinion on because so think being trans is something you choose to do.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

i think if this was a discussion about prisons or something it would be a different discussion but i genuinely cannot see the issue with hospitals. i do understand the worry about self identifying though.

I agree; when it comes to prisons, women's refuge centres, etc. then there's a bigger debate to be had but the logic with hospitals / public bathrooms etc. is completely disjointed... I genuinely think it's based far more on people's "that ain't right!" gut reaction and very little objective rational thought has gone into considering the actual risk if there even is one. The reasoning for why it shouldn't be allowed is consistently just assumptions, worries and imaginings... not a trace of reasoned logic or statistical fact. "They might" this, "what if" that.

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Your situation is different,you are in transition, what we are talking about here is someone self iding and who has made no moves to transition at all

prior me being on testosterone id still take the same stance of wanting to be in the male area. i went to an all male school for years and barely anything happened. dont see how this is much different.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

prior me being on testosterone id still take the same stance of wanting to be in the male area. i went to an all male school for years and barely anything happened. dont see how this is much different.

what do you mean by this?

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree; when it comes to prisons, women's refuge centres, etc. then there's a bigger debate to be had but the logic with hospitals / public bathrooms etc. is completely disjointed... I genuinely think it's based far more on people's "that ain't right!" gut reaction and very little objective rational thought has gone into considering the actual risk if there even is one. The reasoning for why it shouldn't be allowed is consistently just assumptions, worries and imaginings... not a trace of reasoned logic or statistical fact. "They might" this, "what if" that.

completely agree!

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by Cherie

what do you mean by this?

as in i got no abuse from the other men and i felt fairly safe.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I agree; when it comes to prisons, women's refuge centres, etc. then there's a bigger debate to be had but the logic with hospitals / public bathrooms etc. is completely disjointed... I genuinely think it's based far more on people's "that ain't right!" gut reaction and very little objective rational thought has gone into considering the actual risk if there even is one. The reasoning for why it shouldn't be allowed is consistently just assumptions, worries and imaginings... not a trace of reasoned logic or statistical fact. "They might" this, "what if" that.

Would you put your child on an adult ward for an overnight stay?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Aren't most laws made on hypotheticals, ie the worst that can happen, covering all eventualties? no point closing the stable door after the horse has bolted

Realistic hypotheticals. Not on the idea that there are going to be cackling 6ft bricklayers declaring themselves "Jenny" to touch up a mumsnet member while she's getting her gallbladder out (when they could just have trotted in during visiting hours - which are all day - to do the same thing, without having LITERALLY ALL OF THEIR PERSONAL DETAILS ON RECORD). It's ludicrous.

"Hello my name is Robert Smith, my home address is ______, here's my National Insurance number and all of my contact details, OH btw I go by Susan and would like into your female wards. What for? For rape, obviously.
It's a flawless plan and I will never get caught."

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Realistic hypotheticals. Not on the idea that there are going to be cackling 6ft bricklayers declaring themselves "Jenny" to touch up a mumsnet member while she's getting her gallbladder out (when they could just have trotted in during visiting hours - which are all day - to do the same thing, without having LITERALLY ALL OF THEIR PERSONAL DETAILS ON RECORD). It's ludicrous.

"Hello my name is Robert Smith, my home address is ______, here's my National Insurance number and all of my contact details, OH btw I go by Susan and would like into your female wards. What for? For rape, obviously.
It's a flawless plan and I will never get caught."

Well I doubt anyone thought that woman who was in a coma in Arizona would end up having a baby either but there you have it, strange things do happen on a very small percentage that doesn't mean we shouldnt allow for them to happen...freak accidents etc?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Would you put your child on an adult ward for an overnight stay?

I'd stay with either of my children regardless of what ward they were on but yes; I would have no more problem with them being on an adult ward than a children's ward. My eldest would probably prefer it .

It's not an accurate comparison anyway because when it comes to abuse, the added risk to children from adults is coercion / naivety.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Well I doubt anyone thought that woman who was in a coma in Arizona would end up having a baby either but there you have it, strange things do happen on a very small percentage that doesn't mean we shouldnt allow for them to happen...freak accidents etc?

This goes against your point more than it proves it; it's highly likely that she was assaulted by a member of staff. So as I said above, the issue (when there is one) is general overall security and not which patients are or aren't admitted to the ward.

If the wards are open and properly monitored then no one can assault anyone, whether they be male, female, trans, patient, staff or visitor.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'd stay with either of my children regardless of what ward they were on but yes; I would have no more problem with them being on an adult ward than a children's ward. My eldest would probably prefer it .

It's not an accurate comparison anyway because when it comes to abuse, the added risk to children from adults is coercion / naivety.

but there is nothing to fear surely? its a hospital after all, nothing bad will happen

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This goes against your point more than it proves it; it's highly likely that she was assaulted by a member of staff. So as I said above, the issue (when there is one) is general overall security and not which patients are or aren't admitted to the ward.

If the wards are open and properly monitored then no one can assault anyone, whether they be male, female, trans, patient, staff or visitor.

No it doesn't go against my point, it proves my point that anything can happen, you don't know that it was a staff member either

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No it doesn't go against my point, it proves my point that anything can happen, you don't know that it was a staff member either

It's highly likely to have been a staff member and staff members are being investigated. But maybe it was a transexual in the next room, faking a coma, but secretly sneaking around at night to attack people.

It goes against your point because restricting which patients are or aren't allowed on the ward would have made ZERO difference in this case... whereas making sure that the ward was generally safe and secure by being open / transparent / monitored would have stopped it from happening.

[thesheriff443]

It’s like a vegetarian being afraid of someone who eats meat, well they eat meat so they might eat me.

Better not take the chance.

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

It’s like a vegetarian being afraid of someone who eats meat, well they eat meat so they might eat me.

Better not take the chance.

[Livia]

Most people in hospital wards, I think I'm fright in saying, will be older people, the elderly and frail. **** them, eh? What do they matter.

No penises on female only wards. The only exception should be, in my opinion, is for transwomen who are in the process but have not yet had surgery.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Most people in hospital wards, I think I'm fright in saying, will be older people, the elderly and frail. **** them, eh? What do they matter.

The elderly and frail will be on geriatric wards so this argument is moot; it's about gender not people self-IDing as a pensioner.

[Niamh.]

I guess the issue is or maybe the question I suppose, does allowing self IDing in this situation allow it in all situations? as in is it a rule specific to just hospitals or if it's allowed in Hospitals does that mean it's allowed everywhere including places where it's very possible it would be abused like Prisons?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The elderly and frail will be on geriatric wards so this argument is moot; it's about gender not people self-IDing as a pensioner.

Firstly, this argument is NOT moot until you've seen my local hospital, and hospitals across the country.

No one's talking about people self-IDing as pensioners. Not sure how you could have reached that conclusion from what I said.

It's obvious you are not able to discuss this with me TS.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I guess the issue is or maybe the question I suppose, does allowing self IDing in this situation allow it in all situations? as in is it a rule specific to just hospitals or if it's allowed in Hospitals does that mean it's allowed everywhere including places where it's very possible it would be abused like Prisons?

I don't know, Niamh. We should probably ask a man.

Where's Vicky? She's always so eloquent on this subject...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't know, Niamh. We should probably ask a man.

Where's Vicky? She's always so eloquent on this subject...

I know, I miss her around here