[Withano]

Originally Posted by Alf

Whoever is paying for the toys will decide what toys the child will play with.

Yeah, thats your issue. I’m not gonna help you through it because theres probably a few decades of unteaching to go through. Somebody else might spare you the time.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You wouldn't buy your kid whatever toy they wanted? that's a bit mean

Lifes tough and you can't always get what you want. I wanted all the toys in the shop, but I had to make do with whatever my parents got me.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Depends how its done... everything could be gender neutral really, letting a toddler and child believe their ideas aren’t outside socially constructed norms doesn’t seem like a bad idea at all. They’ll develop their interests long before they work out what social norms are, and they’ll be comfortable in knowing their hobbies are about them personally, and not about the societal standards... which I think is pretty cute.

mmm I mean I agree with you, kids should just be left to figure out what they like themselves whether that be clothes, colours, toys, school subjects etc, I just don't want it to be the case again of if you decide to go with the kitchen set you must be a girl, that is going backwards and that's what it sounds like when you're raising someone genderless until they decide if they like girls stuff or boys stuff. We really have come so far with this stuff since I was a kid/teen, it would be soul destroying for all that to be undone again

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeah, thats your issue. I’m not gonna help you through it because theres probably a few decades of unteaching to go through. Somebody else might spare you the time.

I'm not the subject matter.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Alf

Lifes tough and you can't always get what you want. I wanted all the toys in the shop, but I had to make do with whatever my parents got me.

mmhhmm

[Niamh.]

Basically Withano, what I'm asking is why can't you be a girl or boy and figure out what you like? Why do you have to be no gender until you do? It's a sexist idea and a gender stereotype enforcing one

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

mmm I mean I agree with you, kids should just be left to figure out what they like themselves whether that be clothes, colours, toys, school subjects etc, I just don't want it to be the case again of if you decide to go with kitchen set you must be a girl, that is going backwards and that's what it sounds like when you're raising someone genderless until they decide if they like girls stuff or boys stuff. We really have come so far with this stuff since I was a kid/teen, it would be soul destroying for all that to be undone again

I don’t think it would. I’d imagine genderless parenting will get more popular, people will work out that a high percentage of children will want to play with plastic kitchens, remote controlled cars, dollies, and Legos all in the same week, and people will work out that it was our socially constructed norms that pushed them towards girls or boys toys all along.

It wont be the odd few, it will be the sharp majority imo.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Alf

I'm not the subject matter.

Then stop talking about yourself.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Withano

I don’t think it would. I’d imagine genderless parenting will get more popular, people will work out that a high percentage of children will want to play with plastic kitchens, remote controlled cars, dollies, and Legos all in the same week, and people will work out that it was our socially constructed norms that pushed them towards girls or boys toys all along.

It wont be the odd few, it will be the sharp majority imo.

And that's the utopia is it? That's the Heaven on Earth you're searching for?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The reason (sigh) people put pi9nk on a girl and blue on a boy is so as to avoid people saying my what a lovely baby boy when its a girl and vice versa

babies tend to look like babies and not baby boys and baby girls

its nowt to do with fecking genderising them

It's not about the "reason for it" though it's about whether or not it's necessary, and it's more about how that leads to male and female children being given different things and being treated differently by adults in general (which frankly, they are).

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Basically Withano, what I'm asking is why can't you be a girl or boy and figure out what you like? Why do you have to be no gender until you do? It's a sexist idea and a gender stereotype enforcing one

Gender is something you think and feel, probably shouldnt be something the parents decide based on their childs fashion sense... should probably be something the child decides what they begin to associate themselves with an identity.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Alf

And that's the utopia is it? That's the Heaven on Earth you're searching for?

I mean, sooner that than have a parent tell a child they’re not allowed a toy they love because they were born the wrong sex.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Gender is something you think and feel, probably shouldnt be something the parents decide based on their childs fashion sense... should probably be something the child decides what they begin to associate themselves with an identity.

Well here's where our opinions will veer off, I just can't see how sex and gender are different

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I mean, sooner that than have a parent tell a child they’re not allowed a toy they love because they were born the wrong sex.

See you've just contradicted yourself here now by saying that they like a certain toy so they must have been born in the wrong sex

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well here's where our opinions will veer off, I just can't see how sex and gender are different

Sex is between your legs, gender is in your head.

Usually people know they are the same gender and sex, sometimes people know they have a different gender and sex, sometimes people dont feel strongly either way.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

See you've just contradicted yourself here now by saying that they like a certain toy so they must have been born in the wrong sex

No i strongly disagree with that... Alf said its something he’d do on page 2 something to do with his money and he decides, idk.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Sex is between your legs, gender is in your head.

Usually people know they are the same gender and sex, sometimes people know they have a different gender and sex, sometimes people dont feel strongly either way.

Alright well here is where we end up back around in circles I think.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Alright well here is where we end up back around in circles I think.

You almost definitely know at least one person from all three examples I used in the last post so I don’t understand why.

There are transgenders, cisgenders and agenders (and probably lots in between) on tibb alone. Them existing shouldnt be the end-all of discussion.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well here's where our opinions will veer off, I just can't see how sex and gender are different

They are different though by necessity or the term "gender" wouldn't even exist. I think there's a common misconception that gender "used to mean" the same thing as sex / the terms were interchangeable, and that "over time gender has come to mean" something different.

However that isn't the case and the term "gender" was created specifically to differentiate what would traditionally be considered male / female behavioural characteristics, from biological sex. Gender refers to behaviours, and ONLY behaviours, it (by definition) has nothing to do with biology.

In other words... if "sex" and "gender" were the same thing, then the term "gender" wouldn't NEED to exist at all.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They are different though by necessity or the term "gender" wouldn't even exist. I think there's a common misconception that gender "used to mean" the same thing as sex / the terms were interchangeable, and that "over time gender has come to mean" something different.

However that isn't the case and the term "gender" was created specifically to differentiate what would traditionally be considered male / female behavioural characteristics, from biological sex. Gender refers to behaviours, and ONLY behaviours, it (by definition) has nothing to do with biology.

In other words... if "sex" and "gender" were the same thing, then the term "gender" wouldn't NEED to exist at all.

So basically gender is stereotypes.........

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So basically gender is stereotypes.........

Well yes, that's where it gets complicated because gender essentially is (arguably) a social construct in the first place. That's where you get into much deeper history / anthropology though and trying to figure out where those social constructs came from and whether or not any of them are rooted in structurally biological / hormonal differences.

But that said, just because they're social constructs, doesn't mean that they aren't "real" in a modern context... and whether or not they're positive or negative is a debate in itself.

But yeah I don't think something can be discounted as "a real thing" just because it's of human invention. I mean, humour (beyond basic slapstick, other primates find that funny) is a human invention and where would we be without that?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So basically gender is stereotypes.........

Usually transgenders will typically perform better at some sterotypical tasks because of the way their brain is wired. There are differences between male and female brains. A female brain is built very similarly to an transwomans brain, and they will often share some skills that are typically harder for men and transmen.

So yes in a way? Some stereotypes exist for a reason. That probably doesnt have much to do with kids’ toys and coloured tshirts though.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not about the "reason for it" though it's about whether or not it's necessary, and it's more about how that leads to male and female children being given different things and being treated differently by adults in general (which frankly, they are).

men and women are different so I would hope they are treated differently in certain circumstances

[Niamh.]

@TS & Withano - That just confirms for me though that raising genderless children is counter active to breaking stereotypes and will end up reinforcing gender roles and limiting girls and boys. And a massive backwards step

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

@TS & Withano - That just confirms for me though that raising genderless children is counter active to breaking stereotypes and will end up reinforcing gender roles and limiting girls and boys. And a massive backwards step

Brain differences exist between men and women so avoiding picking out a pink dress for your 3 year old daughter is a massive backstep?

I don’t understand your reasoning at all.

Gender will always exist. Postponing the idea of gender until the child can understand gender wont change that. It’s either that or force gender on a child.

What actually is your solution lol. You seem to be against both.