[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Nobody is blaming Trump for all mass shootings, that would be ridiculous, but when a manifesto of a far-right nut job comes out where he uses some of the exact phrases that Trump has used at rallies, then you have to admit that there’s a damaging, unavoidable link there, the President of the United States is purposely using rhetoric to stir up his base, which without question has a lot of racists in it and some of his rhetoric is getting through to people that will run without to justify their lunacy, it’s a definite problem

...Sadie Kahn can’t control his Londonstan and is ‘creating a terror state’...apparently and allegedly, with no incite full language being used...meanwhile back in America, mental illness is the cause so all incite full language is acceptable ../...excusable or overlook-able...

[bots]

The American constitution is directly responsible for enabling mass shooters. If the right to bear arms were not written in to the constitution, then people would not be able to do the shootings. No president from whatever political side has shown any intention of fixing that.

[Ammi]

...there is a vast chasm between ‘contributing to’ and ‘being able to prevent’...I don’t recall a president who has used condoning language of prejudice in the way the current President does...and that cannot and should not be overlooked or pushed aside....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

If mass shootings had started happening when Trump came to power, some connection could be drawn, but as much as people want to blame Trump (and I don't like the guy) mass shootings have been happening for decades. There have been over 200 mass shootings in America this year. It's in single digits, the number that are directed at mexicans. You need to look at the spread of events and the targets over all .... and the simple fact is there are too many other things involved to pin the blame on Trump.

The other mass shooting that happened at the night club, the guy shot his sister. I mean, please tell me how that can be blamed on Trump

Try maintaining a bit of perspective nobody is suggesting that trumps responsible for every shooting ever.
It is specifically the targetted attacks in reference to incitement by Trump and his policies.
In the space of one week there were 2 attacks, (the garlic festival and El paso) in which the killers themselves referenced wording that could have come direct from a trump rally, this quote is part if the july 28th garlic festival killers monologue prior to the attack 'hordes of*mestizos'...
Now you would have to be really blinkered to not see the correlation here...

'

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Now you would have to be really blinkered to not see the correlation here...

'

I dont think that type of post really helps in SD


can you just make a point without oblique insults?

[bots]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...there is a vast chasm between ‘contributing to’ and ‘being able to prevent’...I don’t recall a president who has used condoning language of prejudice in the way the current President does...and that cannot and should not be overlooked or pushed aside....

i wouldn't dispute that, but some politician saying something does not in itself turn someone into a killer. There isn't a direct link because someone has to want to go out and kill people to start with, and that person would equally likely start killing because someone didn't look at him right or was wearing the wrong shirt or whatever.

People want to pin responsibility on things when the person doing the killing was just looking for any old excuse to do what they had always wanted to do.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The American constitution is directly responsible for enabling mass shooters. If the right to bear arms were not written in to the constitution, then people would not be able to do the shootings. No president from whatever political side has shown any intention of fixing that.

Again, it’s not about amending the constitution, banning military grade weapons wouldn’t encroach on the 2nd amendment, neither would putting extensive gun control laws into place, Canada has a high number of guns, but very laws, training, full background checks, guns have to stay locked up when not in use and they’ve only had 12 mass shootings in about 15 years, gun control does work and it’s about time the GOP saw that

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i wouldn't dispute that, but some politician saying something does not in itself turn someone into a killer. There isn't a direct link because someone has to want to go out and kill people to start with, and that person would equally likely start killing because someone didn't look at him right or was wearing the wrong shirt or whatever.

People want to pin responsibility on things when the person doing the killing was just looking for any old excuse to do what they had always wanted to do.

...we don’t know what ‘triggers’ though, do we...we don’t know if it’s an inevitability that would happen anyway, or not...and we definitely don’t know whether it would be the same time../..the same place etc...or if there are factors...’influences’ that would dictate that...the trigger mechanism, as it were...maybe people go through their whole lives with the ‘potential to but not meeting the trigger’...?...who knows, we don’t for sure, bots...but what we do know and equally for sure...if the president did not show both irresponsibility and prejudice in his words then none of us would be having this conversation in terms of the provocative nature of too many of his ‘speeches’...

[Liam-]

And actually, in respect of the El Paso shooting, his manifesto clearly states that he only decided to do what he did when he read ‘the great replacement’ a far-right conspiracy theory book about immigrants and decided it was the truth and tgat he had to do something about it, so stating that people can’t be ‘swayed’ by something isn’t true at all.

Add in President Loco’s rhetoric about an ‘invasion’ and ‘infestation’ of criminals and bad brown people, easily accessible weapons of war and you’ve got yourself a radicalised far right demosetic terrorist

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And actually, in respect of the El Paso shooting, his manifesto clearly states that he only decided to do what he did when he read ‘the great replacement’ a far-right conspiracy theory book about immigrants and decided it was the truth and tgat he had to do something about it, so stating that people can’t be ‘swayed’ by something isn’t true at all.

Add in President Loco’s rhetoric about an ‘invasion’ and ‘infestation’ of criminals and bad brown people, easily accessible weapons of war and you’ve got yourself a radicalised far right demosetic terrorist

or you could look at the immigration problem and previous presidents in ability to deal with it and say that perhaps this was the inevitable consequence of that

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

or you could look at the immigration problem and previous presidents in ability to deal with it and say that perhaps this was the inevitable consequence of that

Yeah, it’s definitely because of that, not because the current president and his people are telling people that the nasty immigrants are going to murder them and rape their kids, totally

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i wouldn't dispute that, but Some politician saying something does not in itself turn someone into a killer. There isn't a direct link because someone has to want to go out and kill people to start with, and that person would equally likely start killing because someone didn't look at him right or was wearing the wrong shirt or whatever.

People want to pin responsibility on things when the person doing the killing was just looking for any old excuse to do what they had always wanted to do.

So what is indoctrination about? What is incitement? ... what is radicalisation?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Yeah, it’s definitely because of that, not because the current president and his people are telling people that the nasty immigrants are going to murder them and rape their kids, totally

id imagine what is going on around in in his life is far more influential. How many young people his age do you know are influenced, care, or listen to Boris Johnson?


(probably none)

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Again, it’s not about amending the constitution, banning military grade weapons wouldn’t encroach on the 2nd amendment, neither would putting extensive gun control laws into place, Canada has a high number of guns, but very laws, training, full background checks, guns have to stay locked up when not in use and they’ve only had 12 mass shootings in about 15 years, gun control does work and it’s about time the GOP saw that

Great point Liam

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

id imagine what is going on around in in his life is far more influential. How many young people his age do you know are influenced, care, or listen to Boris Johnson?


(probably none)

State the obvious day...socialisation shapes young people there are many factors parents, educators, peers or media.
Young people Are interested in politics he was 21, it's insulting to suggest at that age you don't listen to politicians, which is why we should be able to trust them not to be sowing seeds of hate and division. .. but both here and in the US unfortunately we can't.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

State the obvious day...socialisation shapes young people there are many factors parents, educators, peers or media.
Young people Are interested in politics he was 21, it's insulting to suggest at that age you don't listen to politicians, which is why we should be able to trust them not to be sowing seeds of hate and division. .. but both here and in the US unfortunately we can't.

"there are many factors parents, educators, peers or media"

indeed and politicians come way down that list.

[bots]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"there are many factors parents, educators, peers or media"

indeed and politicians come way down that list.

Yeah, to me it just reflects an ever more sick society and its not just america, it's across the world.

It's in peoples dna to try and associate blame to something that they dislike. Trump is a very polarising figure, there is no disputing that, but there are far more fundamental issues at play here than Trump

[Ammi]

...most Presidents are not on the list at all...only those who verbalise their prejudice so provocatively and who laugh at and joke about comments of violence ...(...and murder...ho, ho, ho...shoot ‘em...)...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...most Presidents are not on the list at all...only those who verbalise their prejudice so provocatively and who laugh at and joke about comments of violence ...(...and murder...ho, ho, ho...shoot ‘em...)...

i think you need some context as comments in isolation dont add much to any debate, in fact they often escalate violence

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"there are many factors parents, educators, peers or media"

indeed and politicians come way down that list.

Parents are influenced by politicians and they in turn influence young people.
I did mention media too.

I don't get what's so hard to understand here...
If the politicians spew hate via the media and parents regurgitated said hate then young people may become quite disaffected. . It's not a radical theory, it's very basic socialisation.

What a bizarre notion that politicians just talk and don't influence anyone when that's basically their job! :/

And secondly an equally odd suggestion that mass killers just kill people.. no influence required, they just wake up one day and think ' oh I'm going to blow some heads off today'...pffft.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Parents are influenced by politicians and they in turn influence young people.
I did mention media too.

I don't get what's so hard to understand here...
If the politicians spew hate via the media and parents regurgitated said hate then young people may become quite disaffected. . It's not a radical theory, it's very basic socialisation.

What a bizarre notion that politicians just talk and don't influence anyone when that's basically their job! :/

And secondly an equally odd suggestion that mass killers just kill people.. no influence required, they just wake up one day and think ' oh I'm going to blow some heads off today'...pffft.

what if his parents were democrats?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what if his parents were democrats?

Who knows?
This conversation is over... I've made my point you can waffle on to someone else now.

[bots]

Tony Blair was responsible for many more innocent deaths due to his religious fanaticism and rhetoric than Trump is .... let that sink in for a minute

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who knows?
This conversation is over... I've made my point you can waffle on to someone else now.

if the best you can do is pat yourself on the back and insult me then id suggest you should

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if the best you can do is pat yourself on the back and insult me then id suggest you should

Ok