[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Parliament has always had these powers, which is what made the "EU masters telling us what to do" line particularly cynical. What are your actual views on the whole topic? I'm asking because you're interesting to me on this subject; I'm pretty sure you were a remainer but saw the pluses/minuses of both arguments, and yet I've only ever read you supporting the shenanigans and jiggery pokery of the leave side.

Not being facetious or accusatory, I just don't have any idea where you actually stand on the issue, so just trying work it out in my own head.

Parliament never used to be able to prevent an election until the FTPA and afaik pre-Brexit they never took control of the order paper and they were never able to impose policy on the country's elected government before

I was a Remainer and I still kinda wish the ref had never happened but what it did do was make me aware of the level of discontent in the country with the status quo and with 'the establishment'. I think the result should be honoured because people should see that their vote actually meant something. I also think delivering Brexit is what is most likely to allow us to move on from it and let the country 'come back together'. Even though I thought it would be better to Remain I never thought the EU was a particularly noble organisation and a lot of the criticisms about its lack of accountability are true. Being a member of it is not the be all and end all and so the damage that overturning the referendum would do to people's faith in our democracy is not a price worth paying. Sneering at Leave voters and suggesting they were tricked or lied to doesn't address the cause of the result and actually I think a lot of pretty moderate Leave voters have been radicalised by the contempt their vote is treated with which is why so many are now set on no deal.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by MTVN

what it did do was make me aware of the level of discontent in the country with the status quo and with 'the establishment'. I think the result should be honoured because people should see that their vote actually meant something. I also think delivering Brexit is what is most likely to allow us to move on from it and let the country 'come back together'. .

It'll take decades for the Brexit rist to be even close to healed, and being blunt, by that time a very large percentage of those who voted for it will be dead.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It'll take decades for the Brexit rist to be even close to healed, and being blunt, by that time a very large percentage of those who voted for it will be dead.

True.
May made a big mistake by not forming a national unity government in 2016. That would be the only right way to deal with the issue.
As it is we've had further radicalisation on both sides deepening the rift.
I will never forgive the leave side regardless of how it all ends.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Parliament never used to be able to prevent an election until the FTPA and afaik pre-Brexit they never took control of the order paper and they were never able to impose policy on the country's elected government before

I was a Remainer and I still kinda wish the ref had never happened but what it did do was make me aware of the level of discontent in the country with the status quo and with 'the establishment'. I think the result should be honoured because people should see that their vote actually meant something. I also think delivering Brexit is what is most likely to allow us to move on from it and let the country 'come back together'. Even though I thought it would be better to Remain I never thought the EU was a particularly noble organisation and a lot of the criticisms about its lack of accountability are true. Being a member of it is not the be all and end all and so the damage that overturning the referendum would do to people's faith in our democracy is not a price worth paying. Sneering at Leave voters and suggesting they were tricked or lied to doesn't address the cause of the result and actually I think a lot of pretty moderate Leave voters have been radicalised by the contempt their vote is treated with which is why so many are now set on no deal.

Is there anything that remainers aren't responsible for? We've been blamed for the fact that we don't believe enough, we've been blamed for the fact we can't get a deal, we've been blamed for trying to stop a no deal, and now you're blaming remain side for radicalising so-called moderates?

I'm not suggesting people were tricked and lied to, it's what the evidence and facts say happened. Placating people to help them continue this charade that the brexit campaign told them accurate truths would be far more egregious and dishonest than levelling with them. You can't blame radicalisation on remainers, because that's ridiculous.

[James]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Is there anything that remainers aren't responsible for? We've been blamed for the fact that we don't believe enough, we've been blamed for the fact we can't get get a deal, we've been blamed for trying to stop a no deal, and now you're blaming remain side for radicalising so-called moderates?

I'm not suggesting people were tricked and lied to, it's what the evidence and facts say happened. Placating people to help them continue this charade that the brexit campaign told them accurate truths would be far more egregious and dishonest than levelling with them. You can't blame radicalisation on remainers, because that's ridiculous.

A lot of the problem about the debate, with regards to winning over Leavers, is that most of the arguments used now are about economics, business and trade (which are hugely important issues) but the reasons people voted Leave were more about ideas like sovereignty, borders, community, identity etc. There hasn't been an awfully great effort to change minds on those issues.

That's a problem for the Remainers if they did get another referendum and want to change the result of the last one.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by James

A lot of the problem about the debate, with regards to winning over Leavers, is that most of the arguments used now are about economics, business and trade (which are hugely important issues) but the reasons people voted Leave were more about ideas like sovereignty, borders, community, identity etc. There hasn't been an awfully great effort to change minds on those issues.

That's a problem for the Remainers if they did get another referendum and want to change the result of the last one.

If there was another referendum, I don't believe we'd have to convince that many people; the voting habits of the younger generations versus the older generations means that demographically brexit voters are dying out faster than remain voters, so there's probably already enough happened to secure a victory now without saying another word.

Admittedly, that's a foolish approach to rely on, but let me turn this round a little on you. How do you suggest we turn voters that are only dwelling in ideological spaces? The fact I can highlight on here all the lies and the illegality, and the fact that the government is pushing for a no-deal, they themselves know will harm a huge number of the population, and yet people aren't re-examining exactly what they believe in. They'll make excuses, they'll bargain with themselves that it's more project fear, they'll say they didn't even believe anything the leave campaign said to begin with.

The forum gives us a really good and varied overview that can be extrapolated across the UK. Anyone still believing in the outcomes that brexit can provide are almost unreachable at this stage, because evidence is irrelevant.

You're right though, it's a really difficult issue to convince people who wrongly believe we have no sovereignty, and that parliament has too much power at the same time.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by James

A lot of the problem about the debate, with regards to winning over Leavers, is that most of the arguments used now are about economics, business and trade (which are hugely important issues) but the reasons people voted Leave were more about ideas like sovereignty, borders, community, identity etc. There hasn't been an awfully great effort to change minds on those issues.

That's a problem for the Remainers if they did get another referendum and want to change the result of the last one.

Good luck with that when immigration will continue just from further afield
These slogans were used only to get the result they wanted.
We've seen how much respect the government shows to the sovereign parliament.