[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

As above, I think this is hyper-focus and selective empathy based on the minorities component of the debate. It's conflation of something that is a completely separate, and entirely different issue.

[Liam-]

Nowhere have I said how woman should or shouldn’t feel, I’m giving my opinion just like everyone else is, not really a fan of words being put in my mouth

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Look at you parading a succession of straw men around, none of those things bear any relevance whatsoever to this discussion.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As above, I think this is hyper-focus and selective empathy based on the minorities component of the debate. It's conflation of something that is a completely separate, and entirely different issue.

I think it’s entirely relevant, the majority of people would be disgusted at those minorities being told they’re not equal or welcome in general spaces with everyone else, so why is it apparently perfectly acceptable to do that very thing to transpeople?

[parmnion]

Some men probably do wear them for leaking bum blood...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I think it’s entirely relevant, the majority of people would be disgusted at those minorities being told they’re not equal or welcome in general spaces with everyone else, so why is it apparently perfectly acceptable to do that very thing to transpeople?

There are multiple safeguarding and practical considerations (whether we like it or not) and - and this is really the crux of it - for the most part it's nothing to do with anyone saying a flat out "No! NO WAY!". I would take issue with those people, too. The problem is;

A) an unwillingness to allow the safeguarding reasearch to be done based on the premise that it's "offensive" to suggest that it needs to be.

B) an unwillingness (that frequently veers into aggression and name calling) to even hearing women's concerns on the issue, just a stonewall

C) Branding anyone with questions or who thinks that it's a nuanced issue that needs proper assessment before proceeding as "the enemy" or "a TERF" or "hateful".

D) Black and white thinking; the options are support anything and everything that is deemed trans-equality, without a hint of scrutiny or raising any counterpoint, or be branded anti-trans.

Probably more. Boiled down though, my issue (and I believe many peoples issue) is with their being an unwillingness to have non-emotive, nuanced discussion and that seeking it is hateful. It's just extremist nonsense.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I think it’s entirely relevant, the majority of people would be disgusted at those minorities being told they’re not equal or welcome in general spaces with everyone else, so why is it apparently perfectly acceptable to do that very thing to transpeople?

They aren't the same they are entirely seperate issues, frankly I'm surprised you of all people choose to lump all those into one generic issue!

It's whataboutism at its most basic.

This has NOTHING to do with gay rights or racism, as has been said on this thread by both straight and gay men this is not a decision that sits well with many...not only born women, if you can't see that then that reflects on you not others.

[thesheriff443]

As a man I’ve bought sanitry towels and tampons for years.

It’s called being an adult.

[Cherie]

The irony for me is when someone transitions the last thing they would want to be referred to is....’a person who’ ...they have travelled a long road to become a man or a woman

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

As a man I’ve bought sanitry towels and tampons for years.

It’s called being an adult.

... F... For yourself?

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

As a man I’ve bought sanitry towels and tampons for years.

It’s called being an adult.

Totally different thing though to be honest

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Totally different thing though to be honest

No there is no difference a man buying a product that’s for women.

A trans woman who is now a man could be buying the product for their daughter or partner as many men do.

[Ammi]

...just to say, Liam...I’ve read quite a few media articles about this and I often read the comments on articles as well...and there is some very, very positive stuff in support of, you know...and also some social media supporting with a few Twitter posts I’ve seen shown on differing media sites....so be encouraged by that, eh...because change in general is always a slow process, I think...

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

No there is no difference a man buying a product that’s for women.

A trans woman who is now a man could be buying the product for their daughter or partner as many men do.

And??? I don't get what your point is here? How does a man buying sanitary products have to do with this debate? The debate is about the wording for whom the product relates ie woman / person who menstruates. I am not seeing what point you are trying to make here?

Personally, I don't care what it says on the packet

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

And??? I don't get what your point is here? How does a man buying sanitary products have to do with this debate? The debate is about the wording for whom the product relates ie woman / person who menstruates. I am not seeing what point you are trying to make here?

Personally, I don't care what it says on the packet

...it’s one of those things that I can completely see and understand both sides of it, Annie...‘Women have fought for so long..’...is something I understand so much and have very strong thoughts about...’trans’ is just more in the earlier stages of their ‘fight’ as it were and I’m so, so, so in support of that fight...?....things like this are so important as to be felt as progression and gaining allies etc, I think...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

And??? I don't get what your point is here? How does a man buying sanitary products have to do with this debate? The debate is about the wording for whom the product relates ie woman / person who menstruates. I am not seeing what point you are trying to make here?

Personally, I don't care what it says on the packet

Probably due to this comment in that article

“I run through a million scenarios of people staring at me, questioning me, laughing behind my back. Now I can confidently walk into a Superdrug and if anyone challenged me I could point to the packet and say "look, this is made for me".

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There are multiple safeguarding and practical considerations (whether we like it or not) and - and this is really the crux of it - for the most part it's nothing to do with anyone saying a flat out "No! NO WAY!". I would take issue with those people, too. The problem is;

A) an unwillingness to allow the safeguarding reasearch to be done based on the premise that it's "offensive" to suggest that it needs to be.

B) an unwillingness (that frequently veers into aggression and name calling) to even hearing women's concerns on the issue, just a stonewall

C) Branding anyone with questions or who thinks that it's a nuanced issue that needs proper assessment before proceeding as "the enemy" or "a TERF" or "hateful".

D) Black and white thinking; the options are support anything and everything that is deemed trans-equality, without a hint of scrutiny or raising any counterpoint, or be branded anti-trans.

Probably more. Boiled down though, my issue (and I believe many peoples issue) is with their being an unwillingness to have non-emotive, nuanced discussion and that seeking it is hateful. It's just extremist nonsense.

Great post TS, what is most disturbing for me is that no one can raise a hand and ask ‘how does sharing spaces/sports’ which previously would have been male/female areas only work in practice, and how can we ensure that safe spaces for all women including those who are transitioning/transitioned are not open to exploitation, thats not transphobic, that’s applying logical thinking rather than waving an arm round dismissively and ignoring some vulnerabilities in the approach that any discussion is transphobic...this thread being a prime example

[Ammi]

...to be fair, I do think the ‘non-emotive, nuanced discussion‘ sometimes escape us because ‘of closing down’ and different things in different ways on both ‘sides’ of the debate...really because so many aspects of so many things/trans related are just in their infancy and becoming more spoken about now and that’s a good thing and we have to discuss all negatives and positives, as it were...and because by nature, it has such a large emotional attachment for many as well...at least society has reached the stage where that can happen/...the discussions...I have many both ‘woman’ related and ‘trans’ related discussions and sometimes both together if relevant...etc...with family/friends etc...but often don’t get so involved in forum ones...

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Probably due to this comment in that article

“I run through a million scenarios of people staring at me, questioning me, laughing behind my back. Now I can confidently walk into a Superdrug and if anyone challenged me I could point to the packet and say "look, this is made for me".

People aren't gonna stop sniggering because of some words on a box. And the sniggering is probably unrelated to what they were buying, tbh

If a transman needs tampons, people who see him buying them will either assume he's a lesbian, or that he's buying it for a female friend or relative. Other shoppers and checkout attendants don't spend much time thinking about what some rando is buying.

[Withano]

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

What a mess. The bulk of you have made yourself out to be cruel and petty tbqh.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Withano

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

Only females can menstrate though.

They might identify as men and live as men, but they'll always be female.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Withano

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

What a mess. The bulk of you have made yourself out to be cruel and petty tbqh.

No product is exclusively for anyone.. why is the focus on this where is the uproar for the definition of 'male' condoms?

You are quite frankly coming across as sexist in this thread as not once have you acknowledged that the backlash to this isn't predominantly from born women.

I consider your attitude cruel, unwarranted and biased

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Withano

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

What a mess. The bulk of you have made yourself out to be cruel and petty tbqh.

People are looking for an actual debate/discussion on this topic Withano... Save the arrogant, dumbed-down, stonewallish "the sooner people realise the right way to think about this the better" dogmatic nonsense and mantras, pearl-clutching and faux outrage for social media. You're not going to stop anyone here from speaking their mind by calling them "petty and cruel" for simply having questions and counter-opinions. You do realise that by now, surely? You've strolled into the wrong saloon, pard'ner. You don't have a twitter army to hashtag in for a pile on... What gave you the impression that twitter ad hominem are of any use here whatsoever?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

It is very different.

Separated bathrooms tend to be separated, for obvious reasons, based on sex. Not based on sexual orientation or skin colour. It's moving the goalposts of the debate to misrepresent the opposing argument. It's ridiculous.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

No there is no difference a man buying a product that’s for women.

A trans woman who is now a man could be buying the product for their daughter or partner as many men do.

That's not the issue, in any way, shape or form.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

What a mess. The bulk of you have made yourself out to be cruel and petty tbqh.

You've spent most of the thread calling other forum members various things rather than addressing the points of the discussion.

Good for you?