[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There have been several posts on the thread encouraging and applauding violent retaliation and if you haven't seen them, then you can't have read the whole thread. I don't disagree that he was responsible both for starting and for escalating the confrontation and I've said multiple times that it's not about blaming them for snapping in retaliation - I'm not judging them for it, I just think it's unfortunate that they did, for multiple reasons, and don't think it should be excused as a good response even by those who can see that it's in many ways an understandable response.



Again I just don't see how this functionally is any different to arguments about disproportionate response to criminals; it's the argument you see all the time. "If you're gonna commit crimes and you end up in hospital in a coma (or even dead) then that's on you and oh well, you shouldn't have been doing crime".

I understand that it's a contentious parallel especially given the circumstances but it's the most frequent, and most recent, set of example I can think of on this forum where most people have stated or argued that they (IMO rightly) understand that a violent action should be assessed purely on the basis of necessity and the incident itself, and not on how "morally upstanding" the person involved is. Yes he's a racist old arsehole, yes he provoked the situation, yes it was all of his own making... but no, the two men were not at any realistic physical risk and so violent response wasn't necessary. They lost their tempers, which to state again, is understandable and should be taken into account, but should never be lauded as appropriate or necessary.

As Girth said earlier, you're writing paragraphs that are actually saying very little. Trying to tie this into the response people have towards the police is just silly beyond compare, as the brutality that's taking place is not something that is provoked, it's committed against people who have looked to the police for help, who have gone about their lives peacefully. Trying to make out that people are hypocritical by using the police example is just fatally flawed for similar reasons Oliver's infamous earlier comparison was.

Do I think the guys were in the right? Nope, but given the circumstances, I don't care enough to be enraged about it and I think a lot of people acting like some sweet old man got jumped would be singing a different tune if the races were reversed but I wouldn't. It's not right but if you provoke a situation and escalate it to violence, you're gonna get hurt. Common sense, really. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.