[Toy Soldier]

Meh, vile TERF hag Ammi, I won't waste one second of my time reading her toxic transphobia. Boooo, etc.

[Ammi]

...well, comments like that will never get anyone out of that ‘battleground’ and toward that starting point of discussion, TS, and you know it/..be better...and I know that you know and have understanding of the ‘other side‘ of ‘both sides now’ so who knows if you’ve felt those very words/thoughts yourself but they only apply to a minority, I would say...any thoughts/concerns etc, expressed here...come from very genuine places of feeling let down./...while she’s explaining her perspective.../..some are trying to give theirs in the same way...

...anyways, internet discussions tend to be ‘instant response’ by nature and not allowing for thought time ...so it’s not a place/way that I tend to discuss many things that I like to give thought to when there are a most definite ‘both sides now’ to...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..while she’s explaining her perspective.../..some are trying to give theirs in the same way...

I have abundant time for anyone who is of course Ammi, my flippant comment above was to illustrate that far too many people are happy to just tweet or post something quick n snappy and will never bother to give any sort of reasoning (if they have it in the first place).

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have abundant time for anyone who is of course Ammi, my flippant comment above was to illustrate that far too many people are happy to just tweet or post something quick n snappy and will never bother to give any sort of reasoning (if they have it in the first place).

It's not easy typing out big long drawn out posts on a mobile .

It takes me longer to correct all the spelling and grammar errors than it does to type out the post half the time

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have abundant time for anyone who is of course Ammi, my flippant comment above was to illustrate that far too many people are happy to just tweet or post something quick n snappy and will never bother to give any sort of reasoning (if they have it in the first place).

...I agree on social media/type sites, TS...because they’re more the sites that don’t strive for a discussion, but more a ‘battleground’...and of course, we all have to individually determine where we would apply an ‘abundant time’ to, in regards to listening and talking with etc...but for me, there are very individual and personal ways of how we do things/.. how we discuss etc...and ‘mocking’ in any form is not helpful at all, especially when a discussion of something so important is hoped for...

[Niamh.]

I think most people will have read that by JK Rowling Ammi, this is what they say is her being transphobic, she posted that after the people who menstruate tweet

[Oliver_W]

I'm yet to see why people take such offense to JKR - women are the only people who can menstrate #saytheirname

Moreover, I find the term TERF a bit ... pointless? Like, why would feminism include male people, it's meant to be about females expecting feminism to include males is like expecting a support group for eunuchs to help women, as they don't have balls.

[Niamh.]

And after she wrote that essay her abusive ex was in the paper saying "he's not sorry for hitting JK Rowling" He was so emboldened by her "cancellation" suddenly domestic abuse is a-ok....

[LeatherTrumpet]

There is a lot of "i am going to criticise a major celeb and make myself feel important..and because there are lots doing it i feel safe from backlash"

"also she is old and white so i see her as fair game in the current climate"

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

And after she wrote that essay her abusive ex was in the paper saying "he's not sorry for hitting JK Rowling" He was so emboldened by her "cancellation" suddenly domestic abuse is a-ok....

And that story was rightly universally condemned, even by those horrible trans people and activists people say are mean to her

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And that story was rightly universally condemned, even by those horrible trans people and activists people says are mean to her

Horrible trans people? I hope you're not trying to put words in my mouth there Liam.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And that story was rightly universally condemned, even by those horrible trans people and activists people say are mean to her

Not all of them. Not that I'm making a huge point of that; it obviously was most. But there were a significant-enough-to-be-noticeable number of people at least CLAIMING to be fighting for trans rights who were making comments along the lines of, "I wish I could punch JK Rowling too" etc.

Obviously aware that this is an extreme minority but I don't think it's helpful to pretend that those extreme minorities don't exist, or to put up blinkers to their comments and pretend they didn't happen.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I do think we're erring towards dangerous territory here by suggesting that anyone who criticises JK is anti-feminist or is pro-Handmaid's Tale. It's kind like the whole 'you can't criticise Israel or you're an anti-semite' state of mind.

I wouldn't support her if she was a man and I've been critical towards anyone who has views like hers. The sad thing is that, at one point, she had some valid points. Self ID should not be a thing and if we lived in a perfect world, people could transition instantly and live their best lives right away but the reality is that transitioning is a process and unfortunately there can, and should, be limits (within reason) as to what you can do regarding certain things (women's/men's refuges, sports, etc). I think once someone has finished transitioning, they are simply the gender they transitioned to, after that I think they are free to live life as they please as the gender they transitioned to, with the only problem area being sports. Trans men likely won't have a career after transitioning since they can't typically compete against cis men who have had an endless supply of testosterone flowing through their bodies all their lives and trans men can't compete and shouldn't compete against women. Trans women simply have too much of an advantage over cis women. It's a difficult one really.

JK's problem is that she got some valid criticism and then doubled down in response to the point I don't really want to support her work anymore. She's free to think and say what she will but there are no such thing as opinions that come without consequences.

I personally find it a more dangerous territory when women are unable to express an opinion to say for example that they agree with some of JKs comments or disagree that she is transphobic, show genuine concern about female erasure or generally just take offence at being labelled as 'menstruators' etc without being shut down and accused of being transphobic or TERFS themselves.

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Moreover, I find the term TERF a bit ... pointless? Like, why would feminism include male people, it's meant to be about females

Because trans women are women....?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Josy

I personally find it a more dangerous territory when women are unable to express an opinion to say for example that they agree with some of JKs comments or disagree that she is transphobic, show genuine concern about female erasure or generally just take offence at being labelled as 'menstruators' etc without being shut down and accused of being transphobic or TERFS themselves.

Exactly. The hypocrisy of it as well is when women say they don't want to be labelled "cis" or want to keep the term women when it comes to women's health issues, we're told we're being petty and it's only a word etc however when it comes to "just words" and trans people they are the most important thing in the world. The thing is I don't think anyone would have said a word about it if they changed the wording of sanitary products to women and transmen. The issue is being reduced to a bodily function, it's dehumanising . I see also on the HSE's website (which would be Irelands version of the NHS) information on smear tests and cervical cancer women is now gone too, it's people with cervices and transmen which is just bizarre however, when you look up prostate cancer on the same site men is all over that one, nothing else

[Elliot]

Like I don’t understand how anyone expects trans people to compromise or have nuanced discussion about any of these issues when a majority of people aren’t even willing to validate their gender identity and lived experience... (ie. jk Rowling claiming in her essay that trans people don’t experience oppression based on their identity, or people on this forum claiming hormones and puberty blockers are really easy to get a hold of)

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Exactly. The hypocrisy of it as well is when women say they don't want to be labelled "cis" or want to keep the term women when it comes to women's health issues, we're told we're being petty and it's only a word etc however when it comes to "just words" and trans people they are the most important thing in the world. The thing is I don't think anyone would have said a word about it if they changed the wording of sanitary products to women and transmen. The issue is being reduced to a bodily function, it's dehumanising . I see also on the HSE's website (which would be Irelands version of the NHS) information on smear tests and cervical cancer women is now gone too, it's people with cervices and transmen which is just bizarre however when you look up prostate cancer on the same site men is all over that one, nothing else

It's the double standard that annoys me too. Major issues with the word "woman" but not so much with "man". Then you have any concern about anything remotely involving transpeople is labelled transphobia just as a blanket label but misogyny and sexism seem fair game? I've just seen the charity Mermaids have pinned a series of attempted trans suicides on JK Rowling personally (with no factual bsck up) in a piece in which they call on her to engage in peaceful discussion. Yeah, I'll just tell you you're not allowed an opinion because it kills people (just because I said) then accuse you of not partaking in polite discourse.

Activists want trans people to be recognised by completely eliminating the biological basis of sex and invalidating the entire point of "transitioning".

The entire cause is a big mass of contradictions, misogyny and disregard for reality. I feel sorry for all of the transpeople who will be negatively affected by the radical group's appalling behaviour and morals.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Like I don’t understand how anyone expects trans people to compromise or have nuanced discussion about any of these issues when a majority of people aren’t even willing to validate their gender identity and lived experience... (ie. jk Rowling claiming in her essay that trans people don’t experience oppression based on their identity, or people on this forum claiming hormones and puberty blockers are really easy to get a hold of)

She didn't say they don't face oppression. She said the exact opposite.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Because trans women are women....?

I can accept the premise that transwomen are a subset category of the larger group "women". I just have to be honest though and say that the idea that there is no distinction between biologically-female women and transwomen is illogical, unscientific and (to be a little more harsh) wishful thinking. I think feminism can certainly encompass transwomen, but that has to be in a form that acknowledges and addresses that there are differences, and the needs and concerns of all women. Sometimes it feels like the available options are "pretend that there isn't a difference and there's no valid issue in terms of acknowledging different wants and needs", or "Be a TERF!".

I'm trying really hard to come up with a good way to describe what my issue is with that, but eehat I keep coming back to is that it's just immature. An immature, black and white, emotion-driven mindset that I can have sympathy for but don't think has any place in a constructive conversation.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Like I don’t understand how anyone expects trans people to compromise or have nuanced discussion about any of these issues when a majority of people aren’t even willing to validate their gender identity and lived experience... (ie. jk Rowling claiming in her essay that trans people don’t experience oppression based on their identity, or people on this forum claiming hormones and puberty blockers are really easy to get a hold of)

I really don't think JK Rowling has ever said that trans people have never been discriminated against because of their gender identity, what she's saying is that women and girls are discriminated against because of their biological sex rather than a gender identity and there is a difference and perhaps a big part of the clash of rights.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Like I don’t understand how anyone expects trans people to compromise or have nuanced discussion about any of these issues when a majority of people aren’t even willing to validate their gender identity and lived experience... (ie. jk Rowling claiming in her essay that trans people don’t experience oppression based on their identity, or people on this forum claiming hormones and puberty blockers are really easy to get a hold of)

When did Rowling say trans people don't face oppression? And who has said that sex hormones and puberty blockers are easy to get hold of? They are still currently hard to get hold of because they SHOULD be hard to get hold of, people's issue is with pressure groups trying to make them EASIER to get hold of, by lying about them not having potentially harmful side effects, and that the effects are fully reversible, when they are not.

[Marsh.]

A big portion of her essay literally goes into detail about how she has been a big supporter of the LGBT community due to the shared vulnerability in facing violence from men. To now try to twist that into her saying the opposite is, again, ignoring the facts.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Because trans women are women....?

Transwomen are transwomen, and are male.

How many sex-based issues faced by women also apply to transwomen? Not single wex spaces, because transwomen using female spaces goes against it being a single sex space; not abortion rights, because transwomen can't get pregnant; not to be harsh but in most cases transwomen probably don't need to worry about sexual harrassment; issues relating to what is sometimes labelled as the "wage gap" might apply - I can see bigoted employers passing them up for promotions or pay risew, bjt not for the same reasons as females.

Issues faced by transwomen are important issues, but they're not femimist issues.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Josy

I personally find it a more dangerous territory when women are unable to express an opinion to say for example that they agree with some of JKs comments or disagree that she is transphobic, show genuine concern about female erasure or generally just take offence at being labelled as 'menstruators' etc without being shut down and accused of being transphobic or TERFS themselves.

So your response to feeling like you can't have an opinion without being branded a certain way by some people is to justify doing the same to others by making out that they are anti-feminist if they disagree with someone with an XX chromosome?

JK got herself into the position she's in by doubling down when she got criticism from a minority until she alienated more and more people, and even then it hasn't even affected her since her book sales are up. It's pretty much the same deal when Piers Morgan was up on his high horse about gender, it never affected him either.

As I said before, she had some good points to begin with, I have concerns about self-IDing and gender specific spaces for people who have yet transitioned but she's taking it further than that in response to some initial criticism she had to begin with. When you let criticism warp your message, what you're trying to say gets lost.

[Liam-]

People who agree with JK demand to be listened to and respected for their opinions, in the same breath as saying anyone who disagrees is either sexist, too emotional, doesn’t know what they’re talking about, or is a man so has no right, if a conversation is actually genuinely wanted, then it needs to go both ways, ‘we have to discuss it no matter how offensive it might be’ ‘umm, I think you’re offensive so I’m going to dismiss everything you say’