[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Transwomen are male, women are female - "even" women with intersex conditions, funnily enough.

Sex isn't assigned at birth; it's acknowledged or recorded at birth, but biological realities can't be assigned.

Taking a purely scientific/logical standpoint this is true but I also understand why it's difficult for transgender people.

Sex is a physical descriptor, gender is a sociological construct, and on a scientific level both are totally separate and don't even need to conflict - all it takes to accept transgenderism is to accept that a woman (gender) can be male (biology) and vice versa, but a male cannot become female (biologically). Again though, I appreciate that this is a very sensitive and difficult reality for transpeople.

Funnily enough it would actually be a path to solving the sports problem; just tier the sports leagues as male and female rather than men and women. Though then you do run into a whole host of other problems when it comes to hormone replacement (transmen need a lot of HRT that is banned in female sorts for obvious reasons, and transwomen who have been taking female hormones will, frankly, very quickly become unable to compete with men, including transmen).

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Funnily enough it would actually be a path to solving the sports problem; just tier the sports leagues as male and female rather than men and women. Though then you do run into a whole host of other problems when it comes to hormone replacement (transmen need a lot of HRT that is banned in female sorts for obvious reasons, and transwomen who have been taking female hormones will, frankly, very quickly become unable to compete with men, including transmen).

Its already male and female though in reality, so that doesn't need to be changed. Its just semantics to say its split by 'gender' because sometimes men and women is used instead. I actually don't see any situation where a 'gender' segregation would ever be needed? Given gender is a very personal thing, and totally internal also.

Honestly, its not the best answer, but all I can think of is a seperate 'league' or whatever for people who are trans. I believe its generally accepted that transwomen would still have an advantage over transmen, because the advantage is caused by male puberty more than the actual current levels of hormones, but that would be a bit more of an even playing field. Which is..well one of the reasons its unfair to have transwomen competing with women even if they lower testosterone to 0. There could be issues with takeup, not many trans athletes, but given the amount of transwomen seemingly wanting into female sports these days, it seems there is definitely some demand, and with proper advertisement or whatever, it could take off. I would actually watch it but maybe not for the right 'reasons' as I would be intruiged to see if the transmen did actually do well against transwomen. As its the whole puberty v testosterone argument in action really. Could get more studies from that option too, and maybe reevaluate options in the future based on results. Non binary people might feel more comfortable with this option also, rather than having to put themselves in male or female, though of course, some do also acknowledge their sex so might be fine in the 'binary' categories, but the option would be there for them anyway. (mind, even with that there could be potential issues. As a non binary male person who is not on medication, would absolutely wipe out everyone else generally speaking)

Besides that, the answer is to have the female category. And change the male one to 'open'. In reality, no man will be disadvataged by a transwoman, or a transman competing with him. But it would mean they still can compete. I think men might find that unfair though, even though its not 'actually unfair' if that makes sense. It would sound unfair if only females got their own sport, though men competing with transwomen and transmen, are not going to be at any disadvantage. With an open category, the few women who think 'males do not have a sporting advantage, the females should just work harder!' and such would also get their chance to prove this, and race against men. They can train themselves up as much as they like and take their chances.

Theres no answer that would please everyone, and thats part of the problem. But the answer certainly is NOT what current activists (and stonewall) are shouting for right now, which is to make female sport unfair/unsafe for females, in order to try and make another group happy, when there is loads of evidence that it IS unsafe and unfair, its not just an opinion. Its fact. I mean, even without all the recent studies and such that prove what most already knew, why did we have segrgeated sport to start with, if there are not any differences?

Said I wouldn't post anymore, however, the thread seems relatively calm now compared to how others have gone, and sport has been something I have been looking into for a while. And even after that while, the above is all I can think of to 'even the playing field' so to speak. It IS a difficult convo. I just really despise how the default option always seems to be the one that disadvantages women. And then ontop of this, women are told to shut up, stop being bigoted and accept it else they are big meanies. This is the case regardless of how said woman puts her point across. Oddly, men seem able to talk on this topic without being attacked, even when the men talking are actually using transphobic language and such. Its..odd to see.

(Not saying the men on here are using transphobic language. Speaking more generally here. Women are attacked for mentioning anything on the topic. Men can literally use transphobic slurs and be largely ignored)

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I just really despise how the default option always seems to be the one that disadvantages women. And then ontop of this, women are told to shut up, stop being bigoted and accept it else they are big meanies. This is the case regardless of how said woman puts her point across. Oddly, men seem able to talk on this topic without being attacked, even when the men talking are actually using transphobic language and such. Its..odd to see.

(Not saying the men on here are using transphobic language. Speaking more generally here. Women are attacked for mentioning anything on the topic. Men can literally use transphobic slurs and be largely ignored)

That's the saddest part of it, and a lot of people use the womens rights vs trans rights "war" to completely invalidate both parties and make them look terrible. I once heard someone say "well, women like to hate each other anyway" in a discussion about feminists (not here on TIBB)

And that's for any topic really, when you see that for example in some countries only men are deciding for women or are part of meetings about abortion and womens rights. It's...so wrong.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

That's the saddest part of it, and a lot of people use the womens rights vs trans rights "war" to completely invalidate both parties and make them look terrible. I once heard someone say "well, women like to hate each other anyway" in a discussion about feminists (not here on TIBB)

And that's for any topic really, when you see that for example in some countries only men are deciding for women or are part of meetings about abortion and womens rights. It's...so wrong.

Well yeah. But you have also spent a fair amount of time on here saying that women are worrying for nothing? Which is kind of..the same thing to me, though not quite on the same level as men making the official decisions?

The current asks of transactivists (note I use activists, as transpeople do not seem to be as extreme in their misogyny) absolutely DO steamroll over womens current sex based rights. There is no doubt about it.

It is possible, to find solutions to advance trans rights. Without requiring women to lose their current rights. Just the current demands do not do this, they actively do take away the rights of female people. And this is why a lot of women are fighting back. Its not about attacking 'trans rights'. Its fighting to retain our existing rights, and saying we are bigoted for doing that, is..not good really.

As you seem quite adamant that current demandsdo not actually affect female people at all ad instead just help transpeople, can you explain to me how..as prisons are the easiest issue for people to see (though I always thought this would be sports)..the following does not remove the rights of female people, to be incarcerated with other female people.

A male person who is a transwoman (a male woman, when using both gender and sex I guess) is put in jail for rape. The current rules, and what trasactivists pushed for, say that this male woman, can be sent to the female estate. As their 'gender identity' is 'woman'. Even though prisons are split by sex, not gender. This move is automatic if the person has a 'gender recognition certificate' which means they have 'legally changed sex' (which is a mass of issues in itself) but even if they have not done this, they can be considered for a move to the female estate.

How does that not effect the rights of female people?

This is not a hypothetical. Its happening. And has already had the logical conclusion also. A 'male woman' in female prison, sexually assaulting, or/and raping the female prisoners. When this happens, sometimes the 'male woman' is sent to a different female prison as a 'solution'. Sometimes they are then moved to somewhere in the male estate, but by that point, there has already been victims that should never have been victims.

A situation that should, IMO never even be a possibility.

Acnowledging that this is a HUGE problem, does not mean I think all transwomen are rapists. It does mean that I think men will abuse such a system, and men already have.

And honestly, even one male person in one female prison is an issue for me. I know some will write off a certain amount of injured women as collateral damage, but I won't. And such people can never say how many women need to be harmed for the problem to be acnowledged either oddly enough.

Like..there are loads of these instances currently. And I feel, just a proper look at the topic could sort things for both transpeople and female people. Yes, a 'genuine' transwoman (meaning someone with dysphoria, not a random man trying to abuse this) might be in danger in the male estate. The answer to that though is not to use women as human shields, and say that any male who might be at risk (or 'says he is a woman') should become the female peoples problem to sort? The answer, surely, is to have...trans wings, or something like that. So yes, sex, and how it matters is acknowledged. But also, gender is acknowledged, along with general safety of different groups of people. And more people as a result are kept safe. The current way, men have a very easy loophole to transfer to female prisons (and its well known how awful mens prisons are, so in a way you cant blame a lot of them for trying, thats before even getting into the ones wanting to move to abuse the women) which simply results in, female people being massively more at risk, in a place where they absolutely cannot escape.

I also tend to think when the 'but transwomen are at risk in male prisons' somes up, think of the other groups who would be more at risk in a male prison, smaller males, disabled males, gay males, and so on. Should we also open up female prisons to those people as they are more at risk? Or is the answer, lowering the risk for those people in any way we can, instead of putting MORE people at risk instead?

Much thought is needed. The topic is not one that can be easily 'solved'. But current solutions, put women at risk. Not necessarily from transwomen, but from men. And anyone saying men would never abuse such a loophole is kidding themselves tbh. Some men train for years to be priests or teachers, in order to access victims. To claim to have a 'woman gender identity' is nothing to such people. Also, the proportion of sex offenders in prison claiming to be transwomen is hugely disproportional to the amount of sex offenders in the general male population. Which is something that should concern everyone tbh. I don't think transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders, however, something is happening. The logical conclusion is that male sex offenders are saying they are transwomen, to get a transfer. Which is unsurprising while the option exists.

The answer needs to keep transwomen safe, but also not make women unsafe. The current answer, places women in danger. And quite obviously, removes their current sex based rights.

This has probably gone on for longer than intended. This is because..well its a difficult topic with many areas that need looked at. Not simply a 'women, nothing is affecting you really, just shut up and think of the transpeople' like some seem to think it is. Nor is it a 'well tranwomen are male, just shove them in male prison if they are abused, tough' situation. An answer, needs to take both groups into account. The current answer, only considers transwomen.