[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I wish I could speak for all women born in a specific region, with as much confidence as you.

No doubt some see it as oppressive and some see it as a beautiful thing to do, so blanket bigotry probably isn't really useful.

In my personal opinion I do think these women are oppressed, I don't think they can just choose to not wear certain things or wear whatever they want, do you really? However I think like most other countries the women in Pakistan need to fight for that themselves, the west interfering probably isn't the right way to make good or lasting changes

[Niamh.]

Oh also just a useless bit of information, nuns don't really wear habits anymore (here in Ireland anyway) they just wear normal clothes generally

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

In my personal opinion I do think these women are oppressed, I don't think they can just choose to not wear certain things or wear whatever they want, do you really? However I think like most other countries the women in Pakistan need to fight for that themselves, the west interfering probably isn't the right way to make good or lasting changes

I don't 100% disagree, I said that some are oppressed, but I know that some women also love wearing it, and I completely agree about the west thing (which was my main point) - we act like we're feminists whilst blowing their kids up, providing arms so others can do it, and stand back as our allies force them into apartheid.

This whole dance is a phony disingenuous one imo.

[Livia]

Women are subjugated in Pakistan under Islamic law and consequently blamed for their own rape?

WHO KNEW!?!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I don't 100% disagree, I said that some are oppressed, but I know that some women also love wearing it, and I completely agree about the west thing (which was my main point) - we act like we're feminists whilst blowing their kids up, providing arms so others can do it, and stand back as our allies force them into apartheid.

This whole dance is a phony disingenuous one imo.

I can definitely agree with that

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Livia

Women are subjugated in Pakistan under Islamic law and consequently blamed for their own rape?

WHO KNEW!?!

Women must take responsibility for their own safety when it comes to rape. They can go out, get drunk, fall over with their skirt up round their waist, all those things that somehow, some people think should be their right..

[bitontheslide]

i don't think you can safely say a proportion of woman like to follow that doctrine when they are basically commenting from a position of subjugation and enslavement. ... let them taste a generation of freedom and then ask them

[Livia]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Women must take responsibility for their own safety when it comes to rape. They can go out, get drunk, fall over with their skirt up round their waist, all those things that somehow, some people think should be their right..

Not sure what point your making, but I am sure you think you're right.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i don't think you can safely say a proportion of woman like to follow that doctrine when they are basically commenting from a position of subjugation and enslavement. ... let them taste a generation of freedom and then ask them

Post of the thread so far.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not sure what point your making, but I am sure you think you're right.

Originally Posted by Livia

The Highway Code say "give way to pedestrians at all times". Cars aren't allowed to run you over... but that doesn't mean to say I'm going to wander across the A13 at rush hour. People don't do that because although someone running you over is illegal, it could happen.

Similarly, women must take responsibility for their own safety when it comes to rape. They can go out, get drunk, fall over with their skirt up round their waist, all those things that somehow, some people think should be their right... but make sure you are with mates, that you have a cab booked... don't get caught out and left alone. Take steps to ensure your own safety because PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE. This isn't victim shaming, it's taking responsibility.

Sorry - it was your point. I should have made that clear.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Sorry - it was your point. I should have made that clear.

Are you a little confused?

I do believe women have to take responsible steps for their own safety. But in a country where they are second class citizens, even that wouldn't help. Unless you think women in the West and women in Pakistan have the same kind of rights? That's rhetorical, just to make it clear I don't want a long conversation with you.

Luxurious to have so much time to devote to me.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Livia

I do believe women have to take responsible steps for their own safety.

Those steps should be "don't walk home alone at night" or "be wary of weirdos in nightclubs" or "never go Hackney" ... all fair methods to ensure their own safety. But dressing a certain way shouldn't be one of those things, and anyone who works in policing or legal professions should be struck off immediately if one of the questions they ask is how short the victim's skirt was.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Those steps should be "don't walk home alone at night" or "be wary of weirdos in nightclubs" or "never go Hackney" ... all fair methods to ensure their own safety. But dressing a certain way shouldn't be one of those things, and anyone who works in policing or legal professions should be struck off immediately if one of the questions they ask is how short the victim's skirt was.

Absolutely but apparently you can ask the victim this in court and even show everyone what underwear she was wearing and pass it around because clearly wearing certain knickers=no means yes

[Tom4784]

It's pretty much a given that victims are blamed for being raped, and it's wrong. Victims are put on trial as much as the rapist and everything about what they did is put under the microscope, arguably more so than that of the rapist, because you know, men can't be held accountable for their own actions. A woman HAS to be responsible somehow!

It's ****ing gross, I hate it. Rape will always be a low prosecuted crime if the way the trials continue to inherently blame the victims.

[Tom4784]

A woman could walk down the street naked, what she is wearing, or isn't, is not consent.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kate!

Mr Khan is living in the dark ages.

He has no choice
the nation is that way.

Like Saudi Arabia

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I don't 100% disagree, I said that some are oppressed, but I know that some women also love wearing it, and I completely agree about the west thing (which was my main point) - we act like we're feminists whilst blowing their kids up, providing arms so others can do it, and stand back as our allies force them into apartheid.

This whole dance is a phony disingenuous one imo.

Behave. Nobody has been blowing up Pakistan children

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's pretty much a given that victims are blamed for being raped, and it's wrong. Victims are put on trial as much as the rapist and everything about what they did is put under the microscope, arguably more so than that of the rapist, because you know, men can't be held accountable for their own actions. A woman HAS to be responsible somehow!

It's ****ing gross, I hate it. Rape will always be a low prosecuted crime if the way the trials continue to inherently blame the victims.

Agree with all of this, but the bolded bit..I would honestly go further than that given some cases I have followed recently..and say that the victims are put on trial MORE than the rapists.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Agree with all of this, but the bolded bit..I would honestly go further than that given some cases I have followed recently..and say that the victims are put on trial MORE than the rapists.

I agree. I sat through a rape case of a family member a few years ago. It was a case of consent, my family member was friends with the rapist and had had a brief relationship with him in the past but it had not worked out and they kept as friends. He raped her one night after a night out, she had said no he forced her anyway. During the trial, the defence and their witnesses brought up her sexual past, but the jury were not allowed to know of a previous allegation against him,his history of football violence and general ****tyness. The judge at one point asked the defence if they were going to trot out the names of every person the victim had slept with. It was a horrible experience to sit through,came down to her word against his (despite the blood, bruising and state of her) and he was acquitted. She would not advise ANYONE of ever going through a trial like that as they tarnished her whilst he was made out by the defence to just be a "lad"

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I agree. I sat through a rape case of a family member a few years ago. It was a case of consent, my family member was friends with the rapist and had had a brief relationship with him in the past but it had not worked out and they kept as friends. He raped her one night after a night out, she had said no he forced her anyway. During the trial, the defence and their witnesses brought up her sexual past, but the jury were not allowed to know of a previous allegation against him,his history of football violence and general ****tyness. The judge at one point asked the defence if they were going to trot out the names of every person the victim had slept with. It was a horrible experience to sit through,came down to her word against his (despite the blood, bruising and state of her) and he was acquitted. She would not advise ANYONE of ever going through a trial like that as they tarnished her whilst he was made out by the defence to just be a "lad"

Yeah, this is why i always wonder why people believe so much that the woman is lying, I'm not saying that never happens but most people will know how low conviction rates are, how quick people are to doubt the woman and how awfully women are treated in the court room, why would anyone sign up for that if it didn't happen?