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parmnion · 03-09-2021, 11:00 AM

Dirty beast.

Oliver_W · 03-09-2021, 11:09 AM

Males simply don't belong in woman-only spaces, especially ones where they're exposed and/or vulnerable. Not "even" males who identify as transwomen.

rusticgal · 03-09-2021, 11:24 AM

I recall seeing the video....good I am glad she has been charged. That just wasn't acceptable.

Alf · 03-09-2021, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Somewhat alarmingly, there's an increasing rhetoric that "autogynephilia" (essentially, straight men being sexually aroused by the concept of themself as a woman) is a legitimate and acceptable branch of transexuality and that any rhetoric to the contrary is kink-shaming and/or transphobic.

I can't honestly fathom how any genuinely trans individual could find this to be anything other than extremely offensive, and damaging to anyone who is seeking sex reassignment, and yet, it is very much entering the zeitgeist as a completely legitimate reason for a male to be considered a woman. It's proudly in people's twitter bios at this point.

The endpoint of extreme hyperindividualism. Actually no that's a bit ambitious. There are other things lurking if you take an internet deep dive - but I don't recommend it.

What on God's Green Earth is "kink shaming" that's a new one for me, have you just made that up?

Toy Soldier · 03-09-2021, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

What on God's Green Earth is "kink shaming" that's a new one for me, have you just made that up?

"Kink shaming" is essentially the idea that what one likes to get up to sexually is their own business and beyond criticism. Which is of course largely true I think, in terms of people's actual private life, so long as it only involves consenting individuals, however it has sort of branched out into it not being OK to "kink shame" in any circumstance. e.g. let's say a school teacher puts all over his open facebook that he's into rope bondage, his pupils see it, parents complain to the school - they might then be accused of "kink shaming". In terms of autogynephilia it's basically biological males being turned on by the idea of themself as a woman and in some cases going so far as to head down the trans route for purely for sexualised reasons... and if anyone has a problem with them openly doing that - including getting sexual gratification from using women's only spaces... it's transphobia/kink shaming. In other words, you're not allowed to call someone out even if other unconsenting parties are part of their kink.

My opinion is that these are not genuine trans individuals, they've hijacked it as their own cause and pursue it aggressively. They're the "Shut up TERF I'm going to rape you with my lady**** " crowd that pops up on twitter if someone says anything gender critical.

It's a mess.

But no I didn't make it up.

Alf · 03-09-2021, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"Kink shaming" is essentially the idea that what one likes to get up to sexually is their own business and beyond criticism. Which is of course largely true I think, in terms of people's actual private life, so long as it only involves consenting individuals, however it has sort of branched out into it not being OK to "kink shame" in any circumstance. e.g. let's say a school teacher puts all over his open facebook that he's into rope bondage, his pupils see it, parents complain to the school - they might then be accused of "kink shaming". In terms of autogynephilia it's basically biological males being turned on by the idea of themself as a woman and in some cases going so far as to head down the trans route for purely for sexualised reasons... and if anyone has a problem with them openly doing that - including getting sexual gratification from using women's only spaces... it's transphobia/kink shaming. In other words, you're not allowed to call someone out even if other unconsenting parties are part of their kink.

My opinion is that these are not genuine trans individuals, they've hijacked it as their own cause and pursue it aggressively. They're the "Shut up TERF I'm going to rape you with my lady**** " crowd that pops up on twitter if someone says anything gender critical.

It's a mess.

But no I didn't make it up.

It sounds to me that "kink shaming" is just verbally insulting someone, which for me comes under free speech. We can't have an heirachy when it comes to insulting somebody. You might not like what they say but they should be free to say it.

Captain.Remy · 03-09-2021, 12:33 PM

I do hope the victims feel better and will get justice for what happened. Whether it's from a trans person or not, a sexual offense is a terrible thing to experience. So I hope they will be alright.

It's unfortunately a case that makes the trans community look bad and is wrongly assimilated to sex offenders like that person.
The trans people I work with are horrified every time a news like that is coming out. They're scared enough for their rights for those kind of events to create even more fear and hatred.

And the Self ID concept is also very debated within the trans community because a lot of them do want at least a form of medical follow-up to be able to legally change the gender on official documents.
There is a whole range of measures that can be taken to do that, from Self ID to requiring proof of gender reassignment surgery, with different steps in between. So it's not just one view vs another view, it's more so a complex topic that needs to be adressed by all parties in good spirits.

Captain.Remy · 03-09-2021, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

It sounds to me that "kink shaming" is just verbally insulting someone, which for me comes under free speech. We can't have an heirachy when it comes to insulting somebody. You might not like what they say but they should be free to say it.

This should help:
https://metro.co.uk/2018/04/06/kink-...-care-7445761/

Alf · 03-09-2021, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

This should help:
https://metro.co.uk/2018/04/06/kink-...-care-7445761/

Is there a big ears or big nose shaming? What about a rubbish acting or singing shaming? Is there a being a male shaming? Or being a little Englander shaming?

Or are some animals more equal than the others?

Alf · 03-09-2021, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

I do hope the victims feel better and will get justice for what happened. Whether it's from a trans person or not, a sexual offense is a terrible thing to experience. So I hope they will be alright.

It's unfortunately a case that makes the trans community look bad and is wrongly assimilated to sex offenders like that person.
The trans people I work with are horrified every time a news like that is coming out. They're scared enough for their rights for those kind of events to create even more fear and hatred.

And the Self ID concept is also very debated within the trans community because a lot of them do want at least a form of medical follow-up to be able to legally change the gender on official documents.
There is a whole range of measures that can be taken to do that, from Self ID to requiring proof of gender reassignment surgery, with different steps in between. So it's not just one view vs another view, it's more so a complex topic that needs to be adressed by all parties in good spirits.

You should explain to your trans friends who you work with that they shouldn't Feel guilty or ashamed for something that some other human-being did. And you should tell them that their rights are exactly the same as everybody else's rights. They have equal rights to me. I have no rights that they don't have, we're equal.

Maybe they should start being trans-individuals instead of belonging to a trans-community with people they don't even know, who could be criminals, like in this case.

Just a suggestion.

Mystic Mock · 03-09-2021, 01:30 PM

Obviously nobody should be flashing their bits at people without their consent.

Hopefully the Media doesn't use this case to demonize all Trans people though.

Mystic Mock · 03-09-2021, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arista

Her Erect Penis

Does not sound right?

You've clearly never watched Bible Black, Arista.

Lucky you I say.

Niamh. · 03-09-2021, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

I do hope the victims feel better and will get justice for what happened. Whether it's from a trans person or not, a sexual offense is a terrible thing to experience. So I hope they will be alright.

It's unfortunately a case that makes the trans community look bad and is wrongly assimilated to sex offenders like that person.
The trans people I work with are horrified every time a news like that is coming out. They're scared enough for their rights for those kind of events to create even more fear and hatred.

And the Self ID concept is also very debated within the trans community because a lot of them do want at least a form of medical follow-up to be able to legally change the gender on official documents.
There is a whole range of measures that can be taken to do that, from Self ID to requiring proof of gender reassignment surgery, with different steps in between. So it's not just one view vs another view, it's more so a complex topic that needs to be adressed by all parties in good spirits.

This is what I mean about Self ID actually hurting genuine trans people. It leaves the door wide open for people like the guy in the OP to abuse and it strongly restricts people's (mainly women and girls in situations like these) ability to even complain about a man flashing young girls in a changing room. You can clearly see that from the video that was posted after the incident, the staff wouldn't even tell the guy to leave and some other male customer even went so far as to defend the flasher against the women complaining.

Toy Soldier · 03-09-2021, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

This is what I mean about Self ID actually hurting genuine trans people. It leaves the door wide open for people like the guy in the OP to abuse and it strongly restricts people's (mainly women and girls in situations like these) ability to even complain about a man flashing young girls in a changing room. You can clearly see that from the video that was posted after the incident, the staff wouldn't even tell the guy to leave and some other male customer even went so far as to defend the flasher against the women complaining.

The alarming part is that often it's not even down to what the staff want to do; people have been successfully terrified into not taking action in these situations because they're afraid that they'll be harassed out of their job, or their employer will be harassed into firing them, or that they'll be straight up doxxed online and get personal threats... or even that they'll face legal consequences. Mainly because all of these things have actually happened to people.

Niamh. · 03-09-2021, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The alarming part is that often it's not even down to what the staff want to do; people have been successfully terrified into not taking action in these situations because they're afraid that they'll be harassed out of their job, or their employer will be harassed into firing them, or that they'll be straight up doxxed online and get personal threats... or even that they'll face legal consequences. Mainly because all of these things have actually happened to people.

Yep I can absolutely understand that too. It's just mental that we're even in this kind of a situation tbh I read a tweet earlier where someone posted about how quick the #metoo movement is forgotten about. Women complain of sexual harassment and are called names and told to shut up. That's about a 50 year step backwards

Cherie · 03-09-2021, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

I do hope the victims feel better and will get justice for what happened. Whether it's from a trans person or not, a sexual offense is a terrible thing to experience. So I hope they will be alright.

It's unfortunately a case that makes the trans community look bad and is wrongly assimilated to sex offenders like that person.
The trans people I work with are horrified every time a news like that is coming out. They're scared enough for their rights for those kind of events to create even more fear and hatred.

And the Self ID concept is also very debated within the trans community because a lot of them do want at least a form of medical follow-up to be able to legally change the gender on official documents.
There is a whole range of measures that can be taken to do that, from Self ID to requiring proof of gender reassignment surgery, with different steps in between. So it's not just one view vs another view, it's more so a complex topic that needs to be adressed by all parties in good spirits.

Tbh it would be great to have a conversation in good spirits, the problem is it seems we can’t, Just taking this case in isolation, there should have been an immediate red flag for the staff that this person exposed themselves, my feeling is pre op trans women would be respectful of being in a shared female space,we, men and women have all managed to change in a communal space or at the beach without exposing ourselves so to my mind this was a deliberate act which was then dealt with appallingly by the staff probably due to some of the reasons TS outlined above, so until we can move on from name calling or worse we are where we are

Captain.Remy · 03-09-2021, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie

Tbh it would be great to have a conversation in good spirits, the problem is it seems we can’t, Just taking this case in isolation, there should have been an immediate red flag for the staff that this person exposed themselves, my feeling is pre op trans women would be respectful of being in a shared female space,we, men and women have all managed to change in a communal space or at the beach without exposing ourselves so to my mind this was a deliberate act which was then dealt with appallingly by the staff probably due to some of the reasons TS outlined above, so until we can move on from name calling or worse we are where we are

I believe both parties can't have a proper conversation currently and it's mostly due to social media amplifying everything and resorting to name calling way too easily.

Social media is not the best media to have any kind of serious conversation to begin with, let alone a discussion about rights in general.

At the shelter for LGBT+ people I partially work for, we try to organize debates based on those issues and I remember we hosted a discussion between cis women and trans women one day. Both groups had strong opinions but in the end it turned out to be super respectful and everyone got to talk.
No name calling and if I remember correctly the outcome was that more gender neutral places should exist. And both groups now walk together at Pride and at walks for womens rights etc
It's just an example and one of many possible outcomes but I feel like open face to face discussions do more good than bad.

Cherie · 03-09-2021, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

I believe both parties can't have a proper conversation currently and it's mostly due to social media amplifying everything and resorting to name calling way too easily.

Social media is not the best media to have any kind of serious conversation to begin with, let alone a discussion about rights in general.

At the shelter for LGBT+ people I partially work for, we try to organize debates based on those issues and I remember we hosted a discussion between cis women and trans women one day. Both groups had strong opinions but in the end it turned out to be super respectful and everyone got to talk.
No name calling and if I remember correctly the outcome was that more gender neutral places should exist. And both groups now walk together at Pride and at walks for womens rights etc
It's just an example and one of many possible outcomes but I feel like open face to face discussions do more good than bad.

190 per cent agree with social media not being the correct forum, it’s not that easy to issue labels when discussing an issue face to face, and people are more opened to hearing concerns from both sides, woman have always stood by the LBQT community which is why I find it odd that we are in some quarters now the enemy

LeatherTrumpet · 03-09-2021, 05:54 PM

we all said this would happen with this woke madness and here we all are

Elliot · 03-09-2021, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liam-

Got what they deserved.

It’s just a shame that people are now going to use this as an example in their anti-trans tirades, just like people did back in the day before gays were treated like humans.

As usual. It’s tiring honestly. Don’t these miserable white women have anything else to complain about

AnnieK · 03-09-2021, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliot

As usual. It’s tiring honestly. Don’t these miserable white women have anything else to complain about

Which miserable white women? The ones who were victims (including an underage girl) of indecent exposure? Or the miserable woman who exposed herself repeatedly if the charges are correct?

Toy Soldier · 03-09-2021, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliot

As usual. It’s tiring honestly. Don’t these miserable white women have anything else to complain about

You mean other than petty things like wanting to ensure the safety of womens-only spaces from sexual predators? I imagine they have plenty more to complain about, but not much that's more important. Your male-centric privilege absolutely reeks Elliot.

I'll tell you what's tiring. Having to listen to little mini-rants from someone who I'm convinced simply downloaded their entire personality in PDF format.