[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Well I've never claimed to be particularly educated on the subject

To answer your question, I'd be far from thrilled, just like if my hypothetic children had any other form of dysmorphia or mental disorders. I wouldn’t disown them or anything over it.

Due to the way my siblings and I were brought up -a combination of self-acceptance and self-criticism, ultimately amounting to self awareness- and little to no unsupervised internet access before sixteen, none of us would "be" trans if it didn't come from a place of body dysmorphia, we wouldn't fall for social contagian or anything like that.

But in the same way the world -and internet!- was a different place now to what it was when we (my siblings and I) were.young teens, it may well be different again when my future children are at that age.
So while I like to think I'd replicate (within reason and context) the same techniques when I have kids, it might not necessarily be possible.
But raising kids is (often) a two person thing, and while I'm currently single who knows what sitch I'll be when I do have kids.

I meant in general. So I kind of have to take you more seriously than some next person who just spouts predictable transphobia. I figured there had to be a reason behind you being so disapproving of the trans. agenda.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

I meant in general. So I kind of have to take you more seriously than some next person who just spouts predictable transphobia. I figured there had to be a reason behind you being so disapproving of the trans. agenda.

Gotcha.

Well I'd be equally disapproving if anorexia was being portrayed as being "stunning amd brave" and if people were being prescribed emerics to achieve their "true bodies."

There was a time when self-harm was ... more than normallsed and almost encouraged by Tumblr groups, where pictures and stories were exchanged etc. I hated that too.

But taking part in either of those things doesn't contradict anyone else's rights, in the way that transwomen in women's spaces overrights women's rights to woman-only spaces.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Gotcha.

Well I'd be equally disapproving if anorexia was being portrayed as being "stunning amd brave" and if people were being prescribed emerics to achieve their "true bodies."

There was a time when self-harm was ... more than normallsed and almost encouraged by Tumblr groups, where pictures and stories were exchanged etc. I hated that too.

But taking part in either of those things doesn't contradict anyone else's rights, in the way that transwomen in women's spaces overrights women's rights to woman-only spaces.

"Pro-ana" (a huge "positive" anorexia movement from maybe 10-15 years ago) is making a comeback at the moment, from what I've heard...

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

"Pro-ana" (a huge "positive" anorexia movement from maybe 10-15 years ago) is making a comeback at the moment, from what I've heard...

In america?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

In america?

I'm sure it probably originated in the US but these things mean very little these days - it was all across social media, forums, things like Tumblr etc. back in those days so "international" really (or the English-speaking world, anyway). I vaguely recall that Australia for example had quite a big problem with a surge in eating disorders.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I'm sure it probably originated in the US but these things mean very little these days - it was all across social media, forums, things like Tumblr etc. back in those days so "international" really (or the English-speaking world, anyway). I vaguely recall that Australia for example had quite a big problem with a surge in eating disorders.

It didnt do much good in the US, 2nd time lucky though.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

It didnt do much good in the US, 2nd time lucky though.

Not really amusing Parmy - this is something that mostly affects young teenage girls, and a lot of them end up with permanent health consequences (or dead).

Also two ends of the same stick; extreme over-eating and extreme under-eating are both eating disorders.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Gotcha.

Well I'd be equally disapproving if anorexia was being portrayed as being "stunning amd brave" and if people were being prescribed emerics to achieve their "true bodies."

There was a time when self-harm was ... more than normallsed and almost encouraged by Tumblr groups, where pictures and stories were exchanged etc. I hated that too.

But taking part in either of those things doesn't contradict anyone else's rights, in the way that transwomen in women's spaces overrights women's rights to woman-only spaces.

I feel the exact same way about this over-normalisation of borderline personality disorder. Some days I feel somewhat borderline (which in young females is often represented by self-harm) but there’s a difference between shifting in and out of the shadow parts of your personality (whether you normally idolise them or not) and being a little quietly embittered about certain things that happened in the past (obviously I’m inserting myself in this particular example) and having a true borderline personality disorder. I have a very stable sense of core identity but I wear different social hats and feel like I haven’t made the fullest peace with certain elements of my past and that’s that, that’s me (a part of me). It doesn’t mean I’m going to now run onto Tumblr and say that I dissociate traumatically on the basis of any perceived “threat of abandonment” (which is a real thing for people who actually have the disorder) with all the self-invented scars to prove it. But then I’m the sort of person who has a very measured approach to these things and actually knows what they’re talking about so I know where to draw the line between what could possibly just be me and what’s a disorder. I’ve had my fair share of internal baggage over the years but luckily borderline personality disorder isn’t one of them. And even if it was I wouldn’t have been hash-tagging it in my teens. I’d keep it close to my chest and get help on my own terms in private. Random people can’t do nothing for you except run around gossiping about you so anyone being so attention-seeking about these things (I’m not talking about using their experiences for others’ awareness or inspiration) is a big L. Everybody out there is not your friend who cares about your health and welfare. They’re just looking for gossip. And it’s fine if you want to be the centre of attention and don’t mind ending up on the other side of town because of Tumblr scars but what we’re not going to do out here is normalise eating disorders and self-harm to the extent that it’s like encouraging them. No-no-no. We ain’t doing that as half-sane (wo)mandem in 2023.

The over-normalisation of (to use two completely different examples now) ‘autism’ (however one would define that because it means different things to different people as a concept; they could be talking about Elon Musk, an awkward empath with weird interests and probable asexuality or a less savant version of Rainman who hand-flaps) and A.D.H.D. is another thing I’ve noticed in the past couple of years that I’m not too happy about. I often think of autism and ADHD as being opposites in a way and while it’s certainly possible to have a paradoxical bland of both, this over-identification of it by TikTok-dem should stop. Not every quirk needs to be pathologised.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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I think it's more of a recent trend for the Media to focus on the Trans community so much.

The Trans community has been out there in the world since I've been growing up anyway, and I'm going to guess that they were around before I was born.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

It is interesting and I think it affects males too but not to the same extent, and I think you can see that in gender expression in cis gay people over the years too. "Butch" gay women have ALWAYS been viewed as "manly" in the mainstream, whereas "less manly" gay men, whilst seen in ways as effeminate, has always been described differently, as "camp gay men" but nonetheless still distinctly a category of men, not "womanly". The latter being how it should be, of course, as you pointed out - having personality traits that are "traditionally" one gender or the other doesn't and shouldn't have to mean anything at all.

I swear I remember being quite confused as a younger kid and wondering if I "wasn't a real boy" simply because all the other boys liked football and I didn't. Which in hindsight as an adult is ridiculous - even once you get to the teens and other people start finally admitting they're not that fussed for sports either.

Again I do think there's different things going on for different people but I wonder WHAT IF it was 2023 and young-me had expressed that to my parents and they had, wanting to be understanding and affirming, said "Well yes actually maybe you are a girl!" instead of "lol not all boys like football, some of your friends love it as much as they say, some of them are just trying to fit in."

To go off topic for a minute.

Have you checked out other Sports? Because you might just not like Football rather than not like Sports entirely.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Redway

Football obsession is for boys, not men. Adults should have more important things to worry and think about than Ronaldo’s next goal. I’ve never been a big football fan but I always liked boxing/wrestling, skateboarding, computer games (I never bothered with xBox/PlayStation, nor have I ever owned one, but I’d play those types of games - naturally besides FIFA, which I obviously sucked at - at mates’/cousins’ houses and I still do from time to time), … ya. (When I wasn’t reading.) Boxing and wrestling is arguably more masculine (and certainly more interesting) than watching over-paid 29-year-olds trying to kick one silly ball into a goal-post. I understand having a moderate lifelong interest in football (especially considering Liverpool’s actually one of my home-towns) but what I don’t get is the crazy obsession that so many men used to have in it before the pandemic (I think it’s calmed down a bit). Eventually even footballers have to grow up and find a proper career where they’ll be paid much more averagely.

Speaking for myself I love competitions, hence my love for Football and other Sports, and even down to Reality TV Shows like BB.

Plus nowadays Football is one of only a few things from the West that I can watch without feeling like I've took a visit to Guantanamo Bay.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Not really amusing Parmy - this is something that mostly affects young teenage girls, and a lot of them end up with permanent health consequences (or dead).

Also two ends of the same stick; extreme over-eating and extreme under-eating are both eating disorders.

In hindsight you are probably correct. Sorry.

[bots]

Mental disorder is a very emotive term to use. Not everyone thinks the same way, that's what makes us individual and not robots

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Mental disorder is a very emotive term to use. Not everyone thinks the same way, that's what makes us individual and not robots

It's not emotive, it's scientific. If people choose to find it offensive, it's up to them whether or not they want to stigmatise mental health issues.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

It's not emotive, it's scientific. If people choose to find it offensive, it's up to them whether or not they want to stigmatise mental health issues.

with respect that's nonsense, it's in no way scientific at all

As an example, after i had my stroke, i had brain scans performed. 5 neurologists examined the scans, and every single one of them came back with a different interpretation.

When I spoke to them about this, they said no-one has a perfect brain, there is always something to comment on and they rarely agree on the effect it may have unless it is a catastrophic type of injury

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Mental disorder is a very emotive term to use. Not everyone thinks the same way, that's what makes us individual and not robots

We've got a free thinker.

That's not very 2023 of you.

Seriously though I agree with your point.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Zizu

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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Maybe or maybe even emo or goth , I find it suspicious that there's been such a high rise in all this Gender stuff. But that's social media for you .

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Speaking for myself I love competitions, hence my love for Football and other Sports, and even down to Reality TV Shows like BB.

Plus nowadays Football is one of only a few things from the West that I can watch without feeling like I've took a visit to Guantanamo Bay.

Yeah, I hear that. When I say “obsessed” I’m talking about the silly man-boys out there who think that a team they don’t even support that’s playing is a good reason for the equivalent of a religious holiday and just fixate on it like there’s no 23.59. So it’s sad when boys feel like they have to prove their masculine worth by pretending/forcing themselves to like football more than they actually might. There are far more truly masculine sports out there than football (boxing and wrestling being two). I just prefer people to be of substance rather than sports-obsessives. Only boxers and athletes (who genuinely go through a lot just to qualify) are allowed to take it that seriously.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Meh. A lot of drag queens are straight. All of the New York Dolls were straight, and at least some were actively homophobic.

That’s a good point. Still not sure about Bobrisky but “drag” isn’t something what really defines someone. Some people just like to dress up flamboyantly.

[Livia]

Dress up any way you want, but if you have a penis, you're a man.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Livia

Dress up any way you want, but if you have a penis, you're a man.

What about the guys who have their meat and two veg … removed though …


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[Livia]

Originally Posted by Zizu

What about the guys who have their meat and two veg … removed though …


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I'd say they were trans women.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Zizu

What about the guys who have their meat and two veg … removed though …


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They're about as much of a woman as any other man who lost genitals through accident or illness.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Have you checked out other Sports? Because you might just not like Football rather than not like Sports entirely.

I worked in a bookmakers for 10 years and managed it for 4 so I've seen a couple of rounds of golf yes .

I don't actually dislike sport at all, I like a good boxing match, I enjoy the big Tennis events, I can watch Snooker/Darts, I even appreciate a decent football game. Golf and rugby bore me to tears as it goes. So I can appreciate that football has some entertainment value, at very least. I also played basketball at school/uni although professional basketball is a boring watch IMO.

So yes it's not a dislike of sport - it's just never being to understand the obsession and thinking it's the best think in the world. Little boys who "eat sleep and breathe football". I just don't get it . It's OK but that's it.

[Livia]

I agree. Until they can alter their Y chromosome... They're still men.