[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I mean he's a little ( ) overly wound up but at the core of what he's saying, entertainment media has suffered untold damage at the hands of the naval-gazing shoehorning of current social and political "hot potatoes". That's not really a debate point, "Go Woke Go Broke" is a daft phrase but it's not one without roots. The numbers are there and they don't have an opinion... they just are what they are and show what they show. Rightly or wrongly - people don't like it, and are "voting with their feet" (and wallets).

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I mean he's a little ( ) overly wound up but at the core of what he's saying, entertainment media has suffered untold damage at the hands of the naval-gazing shoehorning of current social and political "hot potatoes". That's not really a debate point, "Go Woke Go Broke" is a daft phrase but it's not one without roots. The numbers are there and they don't have an opinion... they just are what they are and show what they show. Rightly or wrongly - people don't like it, and are "voting with their feet" (and wallets).

Pronouns. That's it. Pronouns.

How about this for an alternative explanation; instead of it being naval gazing shoehorning, maybe, and I know this might appear radical, but maybe it's a bit of inclusivity that isn't signalling that the world is about to end, and doesn't really have any effect on the people crying and whining?

Pretty sure you've bemoaned cancel culture in the past, but now you seem to be indifferent to it. Rightly or wrongly, so which is it?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Pronouns. That's it. Pronouns.

How about this for an alternative explanation; instead of it being naval gazing shoehorning, maybe, and I know this might appear radical, but maybe it's a bit of inclusivity that isn't signalling that the world is about to end, and doesn't really have any effect on the people crying and whining?

Pretty sure you've bemoaned cancel culture in the past, but now you seem to be indifferent to it. Rightly or wrongly, so which is it?

I haven't played the game as it's not actually out yet - I imagine that similarly to Cyberpunk and BG3 (where you could have a willy on your female character if you wanted) and Hogwarts Legacy (where your male wizard could live in the witch dorm if you wanted) it probably doesn't affect the game at all beyond the character creation screen, and if he just cracked on and made himself a burly male character, he would indeed get to role-play as a burly male character so I agree his response is over the top -- but his response is what it is.

I disagree that it never has an effect on the quality of the media itself and would say that when it's done in a clearly agenda-driven way and doesn't feel naturally part of the media being presented, it does simply make for bad material. Netflix is especially guilty of that at times.

This isn't exactly cancel culture though, cancel culture would be people saying "boycott this/don't watch this, for [reasons]" - it's not the same as people being genuinely put off of things because of a change in content. Disney being the prime example of this right now. Netflix is another. It's also not about celebrating, bemoaning or being indifferent to it - it exists, that much is clear. The dropping revenue is clear. I'm just observing in that sense. For example, I am of course TiBB's biggest feminist but that doesn't mean that I don't recognise that "clear efforts" (what I would call shoehorning) of feminist concepts into things where the audience isn't going to be receptive is going to result in a financial flop. Conversely, the feminist concepts in "Barbie" for example have contributed to it being an absolute box-office runaway smash hit.

These companies do (or should) know their audience and trying to introduce elements that their own audiences don't want in everything is rightly or wrongly in moral terms absolutely tanking the entertainment industry at the moment.

My personal thoughts are that there's a way to be inclusive that's more naturally story-driven and less overtly political, and that makes for ... well ... things that are just more engaging and fun to watch.

NO ONE is going to watch something just because it's inclusive, is worth remembering. Even the people it's trying to include are going to tune out when it starts to affect quality. That's just the facts.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I haven't played the game as it's not actually out yet - I imagine that similarly to Cyberpunk and BG3 (where you could have a willy on your female character if you wanted) and Hogwarts Legacy (where your male wizard could live in the witch dorm if you wanted) it probably doesn't affect the game at all beyond the character creation screen, and if he just cracked on and made himself a burly male character, he would indeed get to role-play as a burly male character so I agree his response is over the top -- but his response is what it is.

I disagree that it never has an effect on the quality of the media itself and would say that when it's done in a clearly agenda-driven way and doesn't feel naturally part of the media being presented, it does simply make for bad material. Netflix is especially guilty of that at times.

This isn't exactly cancel culture though, cancel culture would be people saying "boycott this/don't watch this, for [reasons]" - it's not the same as people being genuinely put off of things because of a change in content. Disney being the prime example of this right now. Netflix is another. It's also not about celebrating, bemoaning or being indifferent to it - it exists, that much is clear. The dropping revenue is clear. I'm just observing in that sense. For example, I am of course TiBB's biggest feminist but that doesn't mean that I don't recognise that "clear efforts" (what I would call shoehorning) of feminist concepts into things where the audience isn't going to be receptive is going to result in a financial flop. Conversely, the feminist concepts in "Barbie" for example have contributed to it being an absolute box-office runaway smash hit.

These companies do (or should) know their audience and trying to introduce elements that their own audiences don't want in everything is rightly or wrongly in moral terms absolutely tanking the entertainment industry at the moment.

My personal thoughts are that there's a way to be inclusive that's more naturally story-driven and less overtly political, and that makes for ... well ... things that are just more engaging and fun to watch.

NO ONE is going to watch something just because it's inclusive, is worth remembering. Even the people it's trying to include are going to tune out when it starts to affect quality. That's just the facts.

You don't think bud light was cancel culture? Just the phrase go woke, go broke more than gives the cancel culture game away. Do what we like, or we'll hurt you financially. It's a threat. I don't actually have a problem with that, because it's the capitalist system we live in, so I'm actually all for people voting with their wallets/feet/eyes.

I don't think offering choice is a bad thing, and TV companies will ultimately reign themselves in, because at the end of the day they value profits more than people. i think where we may disagree, is the fact that pandering has always happened for all groups, but only now has it become a problem. That's what I don't understand.

Action films are geared towards dudes, and rom coms are aimed at women. Obviously that's an oversimplification as I'm sure people from both groups cross, but I'm just pointing out that this has always happened, but unfortunately these programmes/films have been made political by the people protesting/crying about them by waging campaigns, they're not inherently political because they've been made.

[Merry Mockmas]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I haven't played the game as it's not actually out yet - I imagine that similarly to Cyberpunk and BG3 (where you could have a willy on your female character if you wanted) and Hogwarts Legacy (where your male wizard could live in the witch dorm if you wanted) it probably doesn't affect the game at all beyond the character creation screen, and if he just cracked on and made himself a burly male character, he would indeed get to role-play as a burly male character so I agree his response is over the top -- but his response is what it is.

I disagree that it never has an effect on the quality of the media itself and would say that when it's done in a clearly agenda-driven way and doesn't feel naturally part of the media being presented, it does simply make for bad material. Netflix is especially guilty of that at times.

This isn't exactly cancel culture though, cancel culture would be people saying "boycott this/don't watch this, for [reasons]" - it's not the same as people being genuinely put off of things because of a change in content. Disney being the prime example of this right now. Netflix is another. It's also not about celebrating, bemoaning or being indifferent to it - it exists, that much is clear. The dropping revenue is clear. I'm just observing in that sense. For example, I am of course TiBB's biggest feminist but that doesn't mean that I don't recognise that "clear efforts" (what I would call shoehorning) of feminist concepts into things where the audience isn't going to be receptive is going to result in a financial flop. Conversely, the feminist concepts in "Barbie" for example have contributed to it being an absolute box-office runaway smash hit.

These companies do (or should) know their audience and trying to introduce elements that their own audiences don't want in everything is rightly or wrongly in moral terms absolutely tanking the entertainment industry at the moment.

My personal thoughts are that there's a way to be inclusive that's more naturally story-driven and less overtly political, and that makes for ... well ... things that are just more engaging and fun to watch.

NO ONE is going to watch something just because it's inclusive, is worth remembering. Even the people it's trying to include are going to tune out when it starts to affect quality. That's just the facts.

Ignoring Starfield because I haven't played the Game, and it sounds like a reaction over nothing from what I have heard.

When it comes to inclusivity in the entertainment media, I feel that unfortunately a lot of writers use the inclusivity stuff to hide the fact that their product is underwhelming to put it politely, but these hacks know that by being inclusive, they'll have a community willing to defend their product that wouldn't defend the same garbage if it wasn't inclusive.

Obviously you can have great products that are inclusive (look at stuff like Sense8) but for every Wachowskis you'll get a Velma or Cleopatra, where without even watching them you can tell that they're not of the highest quality.